Talk:2010 Tonight Show conflict
2010 Tonight Show conflict has been listed as one of the Media and drama good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: August 21, 2022. (Reviewed version). |
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GA Review
[edit]GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
- This review is transcluded from Talk:2010 Tonight Show conflict/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: RunningTiger123 (talk · contribs) 01:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi LuK3, this article caught my interest and I've decided to give it a go. It'll take some time to get through everything, but I should be able to finish it over the weekend. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
- It is reasonably well written.
- It is factually accurate and verifiable.
- a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
- a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
- It is broad in its coverage.
- a (major aspects): b (focused):
- a (major aspects): b (focused):
- It follows the neutral point of view policy.
- Fair representation without bias:
- Fair representation without bias:
- It is stable.
- No edit wars, etc.:
- No edit wars, etc.:
- It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
- a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
- a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
- Overall:
- Pass/Fail:
- Pass/Fail:
Quick checks:
- Copyvio check shows no major issues; closest matches are attributed quotes.
- Images seem reasonable; the two non-free images (lead image and Kimmel) have solid rationales, and all images include proper alt text and captions.
- The article is stable.
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Lead
[edit]"not participate in the destruction of The Tonight Show"
– this quote is never used in the body, and is therefore unattributed.- That actually was not the exact quote, see "People of Earth" section. I only quoted the term "destruction". -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
on appearing on television
– awkward repetition, maybe tryagainst appearing on television
?- Changed to "...while after a contractual seven-month ban against appearing on television,...". -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Background
[edit]- Note: From here on out, I'll assume Carter's citations are accurate.
- Ref. 3 is okay, but not great. It would be better for a source to directly state NBC was a leader, rather than infer it from charts.
- I changed the image caption. I think the chart is fairly straightforward in stating NBC/The Tonight Show were number 1 in viewership for most of the 90s and 2000s. If that still is insufficient please let me know and I'll find another reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
which began in 1993.
– should be a comma at the end- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
can compete
→could compete
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
(for Leno's entire run)
– this might be confusing, since it's not immediately clear if this means 2009 or 2014. I'd suggest rewording or just removing it.- I specified it was Leno's first stint as host.
- Ref. 13 does not make it clear if Michaels suggested O'Brien for the role.
- I found a Los Angeles Times article that seems to say Michaels specifically suggested O'Brien as new host. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 14 never mentions a week-to-week contract.
- There seems to be inconsistencies between the Bill Carter book and other references. Most online sources stated NBC put O'Brien on a 13-week (3 month) contract so I changed it to that. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
1:30 am.,
→1:30 am,
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:44, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Early history
[edit]- No need to link Saturday Night Live again
- Subsequent links removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- For consistency,
late night
should belate-night
when used as an adjective (not a huge issue, just something to consider)- Changed a few terms, I will have to go through the entire article but I'll do it section-by-section for now. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Swap sentences for better flow:
Chernin warned...
andNumerous executives...
- Sentence swapped. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
will stay at NBC
→would stay at NBC
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- I still see the original wording... maybe it appeared twice? RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:21, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
as host well after the extension
– feels like it's missing a few words, maybeas until well after the extension was signed
?- Reformatted the sentence based on your section. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Should it say
signed
instead ofsign
? Other wordings are fine, but the current one is wrong. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Should it say
- Ref. 28 and ref. 38 are the same
- I removed reference 38, there are enough refs for that quote. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
he likened his removal
→Leno likened his removal
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 43 doesn't align well with article
- Same with ref. 54
- Sorry, I'm a little confused regarding this point. Are you saying the physical alignment of the references are causing a problem or is it something in the formatting? -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- My mistake, I meant that what the article says doesn't really match what the sources say (the article generally takes the statements too far). RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification! I changed the NYT references and reformatted the sentence cited by the Deadline Hollywood reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:50, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- My mistake, I meant that what the article says doesn't really match what the sources say (the article generally takes the statements too far). RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm a little confused regarding this point. Are you saying the physical alignment of the references are causing a problem or is it something in the formatting? -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Same with ref. 54
"paradigm shift"
– cited source never uses this quote, so shouldn't be a direct quote- Removed that term. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Wrong year on ref. 57
- Fixed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:06, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
Ratings
[edit]While Zucker called O'Brien to reiterate that the generational change was expected
– following source doesn't mention this- I changed that online reference to a Carter ref. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:59, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
by over 2.6 million viewers
– it was actually much higher according to the source- You're right, it was almost 5 million viewers (Letterman had 7.2 million while O'Brien had 2.4 million), thanks for pointing that out. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
18.4 million viewers
– does not match source- Changed to 17.7 million based on reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 84 does not include that direct quote
- It looks like that quote is in the second paragraph of the source. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
coveted 18–24 demographic
should be18–34
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
local news viewership
– clarify that it's on NBC affiliates, not all networks- Specified it was NBC affiliate viewership. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Use Law & Order instead of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit
- Wikilink changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
he will return
→he would return
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Conan sidekick
→O'Brien sidekick
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Affiliate calls came at an alarming rate, and research analysis revealed...
– sentence abruptly transitions from Leno to O'Brien; make the shift clearer- I changed it to
Affiliate began calling the network to inquire about the show's fate...
, perhaps that is a less jarring. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)Affiliates
should be plural. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:51, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- I changed it to
- Unrelated to this specific section: Wherever the first time appears in the article, it would probably be best to add a note that all times are Eastern (or Eastern/Pacific).
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
Conflict
[edit]- The "Proposed changes" section relies heavily on Carter (the first and third paragraphs are sourced almost entirely to him). This may be WP:UNDUE unless other citations can be added to show why all of these details are relevant. If more sources are not added, the sections should be trimmed.
- I trimmed some unnecessary sentences to just focus on the Leno meeting. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:28, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
11:35pm
→11:35 pm
for consistency- Reformatted. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
lamented his anxiety
– weird word choice- Changed to
...to share his thoughts regarding the ratings
. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Changed to
including Los Angeles Times
→including the Los Angeles Times
- Done. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Only link Los Angeles Times and The New York Times at first occurrence (both are linked at least two extra times in the article)
- Removed subsequent links. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 131 and 132 should use the same citation style as the rest of the article
- Changed citation style. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Reaction and media coverage
[edit]- Ref. 140 doesn't really mention the details it supports
- Added another reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
reminiscent of the Obama "Hope" poster
– that's a bit of a stretch, I'm going to need a pretty clear source for that- I changed it to "similar" to the "Hope" poster, I believe the reference I added supports that. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Can't find anything in refs. 152–155 mentioning that Zucker's reputation was damaged (it definitely was, but sources here don't mention it)
- Add a Variety reference that mentions Zucker's reputation. -- LuK3 (Talk) 20:37, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 157, 171, and 176 should have citation style updated
- Citation style updated. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:09, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ricky Gervais should probably be linked
- Done.
- Paragraph for ref. 164 is currently inappropriate WP:SYNTH because there is no source connecting the 1992 and 2010 incidents
- I just removed that paragraph. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:09, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
Leno retained an talent agent, a publicist, and entertainment lawyers
– inappropriate synthesis again with the current sources- Also:
an talent agent
→a talent agent
- Also:
"raced past the reviled likes..."
– this direct quote doesn't quite match the source- I switched the quote. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Paragraph on Kimmel's response seems incomplete – didn't he criticize Leno more when he appeared on "10 at 10"? That feels like something worth mentioning.
- I added a wrap-up sentence regarding Kimmel's criticism of Leno with an Entertainment Weekly reference.
"There's been three hosts..."
– unsourced direct quote- Added reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
The comedians who came out in defense...
– probably should have a source or be cut, especially the latter half of the sentence- While it was most likely true, I couldn't find a reliable source to back that up. I removed that sentence. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
10:00pm
→10:00 pm
- Done. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
Conan's lead-in
→O'Brien's lead-in
- Done. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Don't link NBC Sports and Dick Ebersol again
despite O'Brien's success...
– this part of the sentence isn't mentioned in the source, so it's inappropriate synthesis- Last part of that sentence removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:55, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Settlement
[edit]Sorry for the delay, I'll try to get the rest of the review knocked out ASAP.
"betrayed"
is a direct quote, so it needs a source.- Added the NYP article with the direct quote. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:42, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
above standard GE levels
– not in source and can easily be removed- Removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:43, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
they have done
→[they] have done
- Brackets added. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 216 (Carter) cannot prove that Leno's lead
held for much of the rest of his run
if it was published in 2010- Added another ref. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- It's another 2010 source – the source should be from 2014 or later if it discussed information up to 2014. RunningTiger123
- Added another ref. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
(talk) 00:41, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, I added the wrong ref, it should be fixed now. -- LuK3 (Talk) 11:57, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:15, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Impact
[edit]Also Leno's larger staff...
– sentence is not supported by source, remove- Removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
any effort to mention O'Brien's tenure was whitewashed from company history
– overstatement, they simply removed episodes from the internet- I reworked that sentence to just mention the removal of reruns. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- The sentence's grammar is incorrect and should be fixed. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:42, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sentence fixed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 11:58, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- The sentence's grammar is incorrect and should be fixed. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:42, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- I reworked that sentence to just mention the removal of reruns. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 242 links to the wrong page.
- Link changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Aftermath
[edit]the show averages
→the show averaged
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
US$4 million per episode
– source says 2 million- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- No need to link Jeff Gaspin or Rick Ludwin
- Removed wikilinks. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- The current wording implies both Graboff and Gaspin left in November 2011, but that's not right – the easiest fix is to remove
in November 2011
. - Ref. 258 appears to be an unauthorized copy of an episode clip – I would remove it (WP:COPYLINK).
- Same goes for ref. 260 and ref. 185 (latter is in a different section)
- I changed the citation style to cite the episodes and broadcast specifically. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:29, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Same goes for ref. 260 and ref. 185 (latter is in a different section)
until he announced Jimmy Fallon...
– weird wording; maybe useuntil Jimmy Fallon became the next host of the franchise in February 2014
?- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Less than a month removed from hosting Tonight...
– irrelevant paragraph, remove- Removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
in addition to appearing on
→and later appeared on
(current wording implies appearances were on same date)- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 278 doesn't talk about O'Brien or Triumph at all
- Changed the source. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:36, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
In 2017, mention was made of the host in NBC's 90th Anniversary Special
– unsourced- Ref added. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 281 doesn't mention Leno, as far as I can tell.
- Ref changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:02, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Sorry for the lengthy review and the delay – overall, it's a really strong article. Once the above comments are resolved, I'll be happy to support promotion. RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the thorough review RunningTiger123. I believe I addressed all of the issues raised above. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- There are a few spots where I replied to your fixes across all sections that still need to be addressed (mostly grammar); otherwise, everything else looks good. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:47, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing those out, I believe it should be good now. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:53, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Looks good! Passing shortly. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:20, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing those out, I believe it should be good now. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:53, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- There are a few spots where I replied to your fixes across all sections that still need to be addressed (mostly grammar); otherwise, everything else looks good. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:47, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
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