Talk:2008 NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament

Asterisks

There are asterisks all over this page that don't seem to lead to any asterisk saying what they are about. GeneCallahan (talk) 18:11, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposition

Let's make this article a GA this year! I propose we summarize the games in roughly the same way they are currently organized on the 2007 page. If we do that, rein in trivia sections, and cite everything, we'll have GA status within a few weeks after the end of the tournament.

Also, anybody who is going to any of the games, take some pictures! Upload them onto wikipedia so we can put them on this page. It'll make it so much better. Wrad (talk) 02:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Rather, please give your pictures a free licence and upload them to Wikimedia Commons, so they can be used on all projects, not just the English Wikipedia. Other language versions including other language Wikinews often have no usable graphics to choose from. --Mareklug ^talk 00:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

UCLA-Texas A&M Controversy

just so everyone knows, i edited the section of the western region second round in regards to the heavily disputed ending of the UCLA/Texas A&M game, where Donald Sloan was fouled (photographic evidence proves it) though no foul was called. It just suggests that the play was controversial, not that anyone is a cheater or "should have lost." Swishymcjackass (talk) 13:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Bubble teams

How about some sourced material on bubble teams as the tournament approaches? Wrad (talk) 00:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem with talking about bubble teams is that in the weeks leading up to the tournament the bubble picture fluctuates so much that anything you write could be irrelevant just days later. It might be relevant to include a paragraph on bubble teams who are not selected once Selection Sunday has come and gone. There are usually lots of good quotes that can be sourced on those. Leebo ^T/C 17:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Sure. Let's wait until things solidify. Wrad (talk) 17:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

premature posting of qualifying

I noticed someone posted Memphis qualified. While they are winning by 30 with 3 minutes left, they have not qualified officially, so I reverted it. But then I wondered if I should have kept it per WP:SNOW. What should I have done? Smartyllama (talk) 17:16, 15 March 2008 (UTC):mo]]

Most seem to be against posting a win until the buzzer sounds. Wikipedia would look really stupid if someone pulled off a rally and stunning upset. Wrad (talk) 17:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

That's what I thought. But it does seem unlikely that they'll score 30 points in 3 minutes, without memphis scoring ay. Smartyllama (talk)

30 points is 10 three pointers; so they had 18 seconds per three point at that point. That would have been merely a (very much) uphill battle at the time and not snowball. Snowball applied somewhere around the 30 second mark when Memphis got the ball back with the shot clock off and Tulsa made no effort to attempt to fowl. Jon (talk) 17:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Coppin St. vs Mount St. Mary's in play in game

They just said that on CBS just now. DandyDan2007 (talk) 20:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

• And, duly posted. NoseNuggets (talk) 4:39 PM US EDT Mar 16 2008.

Which pre-regional final sites go with which regionals?

I realize the article format, including bracket, is traditional and recycled year to year, but really, it should be immediately transparent which game sites belong to which regional. This information is not provided anywhere in the article. --Mareklug ^talk 00:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it in the heading of each regional bracket?? Wrad (talk) 00:58, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Let me rephrase that: How do I know Denver games are South not Midwest? Brackets are labeled with regional (e.g. South), but list of game sites with dates is not annotated as to which regional they belong to. So looking at either the bracket or the non-bracket info, you just don't know which regional Denver games belong to. --Mareklug ^talk 01:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I see. That's kind of dumb. Wrad (talk) 01:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• You're misunderstanding the pod system. Denver games don't have to be exclusively in one region. This year, there are Denver games that are part of the East and South regionals. None as part of the Midwest. Raleigh, NC feeds into the East and Midwest. And so on and so forth. So, one site isn't exclusive to a particular region until the regional semifinals and finals. -Bluedog423^Talk 02:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Ever since the pod system was implemented, it's been the exception and not the rule when all the winning teams from the same first & second round site go to the same reigional. Jon (talk) 17:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

So, why not have someone create a subarticle on how the "pod system" works in both the Men's and Women's Tournaments and have a deeper understanding on how and why it's done. NoseNuggets (talk) 2:41 US EDT Mar 22 2008.

I think that's a good idea. Wrad (talk) 06:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Does NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Championship#Tournament format not explain it clearly? Zzyzx11 (Talk) 17:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

According to the Official NCAA Brackets...

It's "Southern California," not USC. This is in difference of the name "University of South Carolina" also being called by the initials "USC". I updated the link on the page to reflect the Official Stance by the NCAA. NoseNuggets (talk) 2:30 PM US EDT Mar 18 2008.

I also altered the brackets so that they reflect the official NCAA Brackets that has been linked to. NoseNuggets (talk) 3:04 PM US EDT Mar 18 2008.

There's a difference between shortening a name to get it to fit, and shortening it because that's how it's recognized as. Changing Washington St. to Washington State doesn't affect the bracket any, and it's more recognizable. Grsz 11 19:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd also point out that the linked Wikipedia article uses USC in the title, so it means Wikipedia is internally consistent. (Or at least not internally inconsistent.) —C.Fred (talk) 01:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Whomever has been using the ESPN brackets, please stop. The brackets are listed by the how they look in the OFFICIAL NCAA BRACKETS. Any more of these shenanigans, and I will be forced to have you reported for vandalism, okay? NoseNuggets (talk) 8:32 AM US EDT Mar 19 2008

Even this article isn't internally consistent... in the listing of the teams numerically by seeding within each region, Southern Cal is denoted by USC, while it is Southern California in the bracket. Macraw83 (talk) 15:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

And since Southern California doesn't fit on one line in the table, I propose using the phrase "Southern Cal" instead for both. Macraw83 (talk) 15:10, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

No. It's "Southern California" according to the NCAA, not Southern Cal nor USC, otherwise causing confusion with the University of South Carolina who have the same initials. End of story. NoseNuggets (talk) 9:39 PM US EDT Mar 19 2008

I don't see a citation for the brackets. Could someone add one? Wrad (talk) 02:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Before entering into any discussion, check out the Talk:2007 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament from last year. Note that "Southern Cal" is incorrect according to University of Southern California media releases. Southern California or USC are appropriate. (See page 175 of the basketball media guide.)

Note to the media: In references to athletic teams of the University of Southern California, the following are preferred: USC, Southern California, So. California, Troy and Trojans for men’s or women’s teams, and Women of Troy for women’s teams. PLEASE do not use Southern Cal (it’s like calling San Francisco “Frisco” or North Carolina “North Car.”).

Group29 (talk) 18:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

This matter has already been discussed last year, NoseNuggets on the Talk:2007 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament from last year (section titled Southern Cal vs. Southern California and Bracket abbreviation). The NCAA does not have an official stance on this as their NCAA Scorecard page has Southern California listed as USC [1][2] so your statement as it is "Southern California" and not USC is incorrect. It also appears that all wikipedia articles containing about the University of Southern California athletics team are under "USC" and not Southern California, making it a popular term. With this stated, following the WP:NC common names, USC should be use to identify the University of Southern California athletic teams as it is the popular name while South Carolina is used to identify their athletic teams as the NCAA did on their scorecard. [3] However, I would like to know an admin's position on this so this will not occur again every single time USC makes it to any tournament. Reorion (talk) 22:52, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Record by Conference

There are differing opinions about this table. I propose to make this table just like the version from 2007, therefore eliminating all 0-1 conferences and mentioning them in a sentence below the table. Some others would like to keep them in the table. I had no thoughts of removing any 0-2 conferences, but that could be up for debate. I think leaving the 0-1's make the table too large. Also, this table is sortable, but it sorts the wrong way. Is there any way to sort the biggest first? I could not find a way. Foxman9815 21:00, 20 March 2008

I suggest that this section be deleted as original research which is in violation of WP:NOR, WP:V and WP:RS. As of this writing, for example, the Big East is shown with a 4-0 record. No verifiable source is given, and I cannot find (via google) any source that would provide that specific information. As interesting as this information is, it is not encyclopedic and should be removed. Truthanado (talk) 19:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Whatever. This is a tournament with live information and we're totally within our rights to synthesize it. From W:NOR - "Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources, or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source, such as using material out of context. In short, stick to the sources." So get off your high horse. I'm deleting the proviso against the conference analysis. We're not taking anything out of context. We're crunching NUMBERS. Jeff kuta (talk) 02:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

You could probably argue that it was verifiable, but not that it didn't violate WP:Synthesis. Thus, it's OR. We need to take it out. I'm hoping we can make this article a GA or FA, and we won't be able to with table like that. Wrad (talk) 19:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I've got to disagree about it being synthesis, any more than any "list of" would be. It's a straight compilation of data. The conference affiliations are verifiable and the teams' results are verifiable. This just puts the data together into a single place. Now, if an editor said "Because of their superior record in the tournament, the Big Foo was clearly the best conference this year", that would be advancing an editor's position and would be synthesis. —C.Fred (talk) 23:18, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "list of"...? Wrad (talk) 23:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with all Wikipedia guidelines you've cited, but please find a way to keep these tables. In fact, it would be great if similar tables can be created for past [[years as well. They are a fantastic reference tool to see how each conference has performed during that year's conference. The fact that they are not verifiable by a simple Google search is what makes them really more powerful. It's not an easy data to find, and while it can be compiled from the game results, it's time consuming...tkiyak (talk) 00:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

One argument that could be made is that references will exist for this when the tournament ends. Wrad (talk) 00:55, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I just saw on CBS a "record by conference" table. This is something news organizations are keeping track of and we should keep it, in my opinion. Wrad (talk) 02:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

A {{synthesis} tag has been added to this section of the article. I suggest we wait until after the tournament ends to take any action. Then, if valid references are provided (possibly at the end of the tournament as suggested above), the tag can be removed; otherwise, the section should be removed as original research. Truthanado (talk) 04:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

See WP:SNOW. It's obvious that there will be sources available after the tournament, so we might as well keep it. No need to remove it for policy's sake alone. Wrad (talk) 04:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I can see here that a team won or loss. No orignal research. Grsz 11 04:55, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Better still, here I can sort the scoreboard to show me results of each conference individually. Grsz 11 05:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

That ref doesn't do it. First, it only shows game(s) in which the selected conference teams played. One needs to do original research to determine whether the winning or losing team in each game is from the selected conference and add them up. Second, the info presented on the web site doesn't match the article. If I select Big East, for example, I see four games on the web site, yet the article says the Big East's record is 7-1. That can only be done by someone compiling results. The {{synthesis}} tag includes the word "may" which is a valid description. Maybe there's a problem; maybe there isn't. The tag should remain until either a) we have valid reference(s) for all of the data in the table; or b) consensus is reached. Since we don't have either yet, the tag has been restored. Truthanado (talk) 05:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

That's because it's organized by day. Not very hard for someone researching to click on the previous day to see the other four games. When does Original Research begin? Since this article doesn't say Pittsburgh is from the Big East, it's original research for me to say that they are? Grsz 11 05:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll tell you when something goes too far. CBS College Sports gave a list of the records of records by mascot. I swear to Hannah Montana I am not making this up. That type of "research" is being done by people with too much time on their hands! And that doesn't even count the infamous Stanford Tree, which isn't even an official school mascot. NoseNuggets (talk) 2:34 AM US EDT Mar 22 2008

Lol! Wrad (talk) 06:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion all that's needed for the by conference section is:

• 1. A reliable reference to the scores. (Widly adviable: CBS Sportsline, ESPN, NCAA, etc.)
• 2. A reliable reference that the winner of that game is in such and such conference and the loser is in such and such. (Also widely advaiable)
• 3. Also, I note WP:SNOW applies for the major conferences. There's almost certiantely a composite list somewhere on CBS Sportsline or ESPN summarizing the conference first round result and even if not now released it will be in a couple of hours. On second round Saturday before the game CBS always broadcasts how the major conferences did in the first round. And on Sweet Sixteen Thursday they always broadcast how they did combined in the first two. Etc. Jon (talk) 15:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I've just reviewed WP:SYN. What that policy is after is combining two sources to push an opinion the editor is making that neither source does. In this whole challenged section, I'm not seeing anything like "Conference ____ is the greatest" or "Conference ____ sucks". For that matter it's nothing but the unemotional facts. (Big East got 8 bids that went 7-1, and their WPA is such & such.) Jon (talk) 15:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I've just located two resources, we can use for this section. Although they are not being updated in real time. For this year's conference, a blog, YABB is posting the results by conference after each round, and comparing them to expactations using a statistical measure called PASE (Performance against seed expectations): YABB Summary for First Round. Also, ESPN Bracket Master is listing conference performance by round for each year in a searchable format. You simply have to select the year and the conference, and you get the records by round in table format (including PASE measures as well). For example, here is Big Ten's record for 2007. The only problem with the Bracket Master is that it's updated once a year, so it won't be updated for 2008 until after the tourney. But we should be able to use this to generate conference tables for all past years' tournaments. tkiyak (talk) 17:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits and reverts in this section reinforce the problem of having uncited information here. If we cannot have verifiable and reliable sources cited for the information in this table, it should be deleted as a violation of WP:OR and, more importantly, it may be incorrect. When the tournament ends, there should be sources available to finalize this section. If not, it will have to go. Truthanado (talk) 12:38, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Later rounds

What are we planning to put under the Sixteen, Eight, and Final Four categories? I would prefer the number of teams the conference had in that round, as it's easy to tell that if the conference had 4 in the Sixteen and 2 in the Eight, they went 2-2. Grsz 11 02:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Game summary

I've added a game summary as in last year's article. We need to keep it to only the unusual/notable games, meaning close games, upsets, record-breakers all the stuff the media really focuses on more. Otherwise it will get out of hand. Wrad (talk) 23:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, unlike last year, I didn't count 9-seed over 8-seed wins as upsets. Last year, those wins were a bit more notable since there were so few upsets, but now they're kind of drowned out by bigger things. Wrad (talk) 23:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Personally I don't think #9 seeds are significantly worse than #8 seeds to ever call a 9 beating an 8 an upset. Jon (talk) 15:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't it me more encyclopedic to summarize each game, and thereby not provide the opinion that the only games that matter are the ones in which 12 and 13 seeds won? I can understand it takes a lot of room, and perhaps should be it's own page. -Kingpin4646 (talk) 17:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Do we need any more summary than the bracket for those games? I'm honestly undecided. I just didn't want to have a chaotic "cheer for your team" section that took up tons of space like last year. Wrad (talk) 18:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Or, we could summarize the first four rounds in each region with one section for each region, and only summarize individual games beginning with the final four. If we want to do all the games, that's the only reasonable way I think we could. Wrad (talk) 18:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Linking Tampa and St. Pete's

I think it's worth linking these even though they're already linked. I think the context they're in in the "First round..." section is different enough that a link would be very useful. Wrad (talk) 05:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikilinks apply to each section. If it's linked previously in the article, but not in that section, it should be. It's stupid to expect me to scroll the whole way back to the top if I want to read about it. Grsz 11 05:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but let's keep cool heads here. I'd hate to have this article fully blocked for something like this. Wrad (talk) 05:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Once more and it's to AIV for 3RR. Apparantly talking about it isn't an option. Grsz 11 05:34, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

If you put him/her up for 3RR, they may look at all of the reverts as a whole and decide to block the article so no one can edit it. It's not that big a deal. I've left him a note and I'm sure he'll come back. In the meantime, keep your cool. Wrad (talk) 05:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey, just don't link the St Pete Times Forum and Tampa, Florida. It's already up on the sites section, and we want to avoid edit wars. NoseNuggets (talk) 1:43 AM US EDT Mar 22 2008.

I disagree. People need to see it in that section. Wrad (talk) 05:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

You mean, it's at the top of the page, while this section is at the bottom. Doesn't work that way. Grsz 11 05:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

We need to discuss this, Nuggets. There's a difference between overlinking and not providing the reader with a valuable tool which they will need. Wrad (talk) 05:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I have come up with a perfect compromise. ((Arena Name|Host City)) (using the Wikilink bracketing) in each case, there fore I have replaced the both of the name of the arena and the city, and added the Wikilinks as seen in the first round recap by linking the arena to the city. Good idea? NoseNuggets (talk) 1:23 PM US EDT Mar 22 2008.

I like it. Wrad (talk) 18:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for Game summaries

I'm beginning to agree that we should summarize each game at least a little. Upsets, close games, and records breakers, should still get the most attention, because we need to reflect what our sources are reporting and those are the most notable things. But I think a comprehensive article should at least devote one sentence to each game. If we're going to do that, though, I propose that we organize the first four rounds by region instead of round. Sound good? Wrad (talk) 18:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I think headings of regions, and sub-headings of rounds with in each region should organize things well, upsets and close games do deserve more description. I wonder if some of the record stuff shouldn't be it's own section. Especially records that don't apply to the games themselves. There could still be a regional or round summary that covers how many upsets there were in a region or in Tampa or whatever. Kingpin4646 (talk) 19:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any records so far in this tournament that aren't fine in game summaries or round summaries. If we set them to the side we risk making a trivia section list. Ick. Wrad (talk) 19:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Tournament procedure

I'm struggling with this section. It seemed a bit repetitive before. I think it should explain the basic structure of the tournament without mentioning anything about who won what or who qualified for what. That belongs to other sections. I'm just finding it tricky to explain how everything works to someone who has never heard of the tournament before. Wrad (talk) 23:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Most of the details on the tournament format are on NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Championship#Tournament format. I am not sure what your overall goal is to put on this article. A digested, abridged version? IMO, it is hard to explain the "pod" system without substantially referring to the other article, or basically cutting and pasting the details from the other article. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I'm not sure about. What should our goal be? Wrad (talk) 03:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Citations please

As you add scores and game summaries please add citations. It's easier to do it now than later. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 13:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

This [4] or its equivalent is all the reference you need. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

We already have a reference for the entire bracket at the bottom of the bracket, and I believe most of the game summaries are referenced, although people have been adding new things about the secon round without references. Wrad (talk) 14:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The recent 2nd round additions are exactly what I'm talking about. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 23:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. People, you can't just add stuff on this page without citing it! Just use ESPN or something! Wrad (talk) 02:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Avoid peacock terms

Can we all please avoid peacock terms. Wikipedia is not the sports page; it's an encyclopedia. Let's just state the facts and let the reader determine whether something is a "near upset" or that a heavily-favored team "barely escaped" with a win. Thanks. Truthanado (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Sources

How about some sources other than ESPN? Of the 69 sources currently listed, 50+ are ESPN. There are several other primary sources available, including the New York Times, Sports Illustrated, CBS Sports and others. If a goal is to get this article to GA and FA status, it needs to have diverse sources. Truthanado (talk) 23:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Technically, the sources are Associated Press, not ESPN. But I see your point. Go ahead and add other stuff, if you want. One source will probably say the same as the other. Wrad (talk) 00:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Other places to look would be pages for individual teams or conferences. Wrad (talk) 00:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Use Google News if you need to find more articles. BlueAg09 (Talk) 03:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Citation tags

Please read the articles cited carefully before adding citation tags. Someone added a bunch of tags to things which are already referenced. Again, before saying citations are needed for something, be sure to read the article cited. Almost everything we have in the game summaries is cited, and the things that aren't seem to already have tags. If you want to check, please do, but don't add any citation tags without actually reading the source first. Wrad (talk) 21:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I did read the nearby references before adding the citation tags and I could not find where the article text was supported in the reference. Let me give some examples:

• "Indiana had struggled with several tough losses late in the season". The nearby ref doesn't mention late-season struggles.

• Will cover this below. Wrad (talk) 04:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• "Tyler Hansbrough struggled in the first half" No mention of him struggling in the game, nearby ref only describes how many points he scored.

• From the article: Hansbrough scored 16 of his 18 points in the second half. He only scored 2 points in the first half. If that isn't struggling, what is? This, however, may be straying a bit from what the article is saying, so we may want to reword. Wrad (talk) 04:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• "Tyler Hansbrough was handed a cap by a CBS producer ..." Couldn't find it in the nearby ref.

• I left the tag on this one. I don't even think there is a ref nearby! Wrad (talk) 04:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• "The media had focused a lot of attention on the freshman stars of both teams, the Wildcats' Michael Beasley and the Trojans' O. J. Mayo." Nearby ref only talks about the game and these players, nothing about any media coverage before the game.

• From the article: "Everybody was so focused on the individual matchup," Pullen said. "We just tried to make it into Kansas State winning the game. That's what we were focused on." Wrad (talk) 04:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• "KSU freshman star Michael Beasley was again dominant." Nearby ref says nothing about him being dominant in past games (why "again" dominant?), only his 23 points in this game (6 in second half).

• From the article: Even after Wisconsin advanced to the round of 16 in the NCAA tournament on Saturday, Michael Beasley still was the hot topic of conversation. "Still" easily communicates "again". Wrad (talk) 04:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• "Davidson won on the back of another tour-de-force performance in the second half by Stephen Curry." Nearby ref says nothing about "another great performance".

• Title of the article cited: Curry belongs in history books after another stunning performance. This one's pretty clear. Wrad (talk) 04:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The tags were added to support getting this article to GA or FA status, which is an admirable goal and achievable. However, it seems that many of the editors would rather include unsupported opinion that can easily be taken for original research. If this continues, there is no way this article will ever make GA; it will fail GA criterion 2 - "It is not factually accurate and verifiable." Truthanado (talk) 00:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

A recent edit states that the first example above "is actually cited in the article". The closest text in the article is "Indiana finished the year by losing four of seven since coach Kelvin Sampson's scandal-tainted resignation and former Hoosiers guard Dan Dakich was named interim coach." Is "four" the same as "several"? How do we know they were "tough" losses? A tough loss may be being in the game the whole way and losing on a last-second shot ... there's no mention of that. Truthanado (talk) 01:28, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Nado, this is a copyedit problem, not a citation needed problem. Rather than putting tags everywhere, let's discuss wording on a case by case basis to be sure it matches the source. I'll respond to each of the examples you've mentioned. Feel free to mention more as you see them. Wrad (talk) 04:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I've added individual responses to each of these. I agree the wording should be changed for Indiana and possibly the two Hansborough ones, but the rest are clearly supported by the refs. Wrad (talk) 04:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Tone

I corrected a few sections, but there may be some more out there. The tone of most of game summaries was absolutely inappropriate. Grsz 11 22:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Bracket

Can't we use "M" instead of "MW" for "Midwest"? --Howard the Duck 05:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that earlier and thought the same thing. But then got distracted. Grsz11 06:02, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Final game score update

What's wrong with updating the scoring? It's a current sports-related event, so it obvious that "information may change as the event progresses", as the tag says. And WP:NOT does not cite anything relating to score updates in an article :). Udonknome (talk) 02:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it matters. People update it all the time. Trying to stop it is like trying to stop a tidal wave. Do whatever you like. Wrad (talk) 03:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I did. Someone undid my edit saying "wikipedia is not a score ticker". Udonknome (talk) 03:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what he's talking about. People always do that and it's no big deal. besides, it was just the halftime score. Wrad (talk) 03:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page?

Be semiprotected -Airtuna08 (talk) 17:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Television outside the United States

I'm sure that the tournament, at least the Final Four, was seen outside the United States. But I have no idea on what networks or in what countries. Was it really on the CBC, as I have read about in one of the local newspapers here? I also heard that Rick Majerus was on the Canadian (CBC?) telecasts, calling the games from a studio in Vancouver then flying to San Antonio between game dates for a speaking engagement.[WHEW!] Also, was it on NASN for all of Europe? What about Asia/Japan? - Desmond Hobson (talk) 23:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Could you please cite everything that you're adding? We're trying to reach GA status. Wrad (talk) 23:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Latest IP edits - non-called foul

There's been a succession of edits by now two IP addresses about what they assert is an uncalled foul in one of the games. Are there any other editors who have an opinion on whether the addition should be allowed to stand? —C.Fred (talk) 00:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing it up on the talk page so others can chime in. I've looked that the edits, the pictures, and the talk pages. The pictures show what appears to be a foul. But one wasn't called. Based on that, I feel that the sentences about the event should definitely not say something similar to "a foul should have been called." That is an opinion about what one saw. The referees watched it too, and chose not to call a foul. That is their official judgment call to make, and they decided it that way. "No foul." As for us and this article, if someone can find an article or review about the game, incorporate what it says about that play, and source it properly, then we can probably keep some form of it in; such as it being a "controversial non-call" on the last shot. We won't keep that excessively displayed link either, unless it is as part of the sourcing. This anonymous IP editor is persistent, but hopefully he can put those efforts into finding sources on the issue, and then together we can address what actually happened. The outcomes (winner, and no foul called) won't change, but that game-changing moment can still be properly addressed in this article while still maintaining a neutral point of view. --Mtjaws (talk) 07:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

It's a foul. Cfred is wrong in trying to remove all mention of it. You claim to be a football ref. You should know there are things such as "blown calls". If you're reffing a game, and a safety yanks down a wide receiver by his face mask, and you swallow your whistle on that play, is it all of a sudden a "judgment call"? No, it's a face mask that you missed the call on. In basketball, when a guy is shooting, you can not grab his arm, his wrist, or pull on his jersey. UCLA did all 3, and nothing was called. It's not a judgement call. It's a missed call. Should I be a dick and edit the Nanking Massacre article into saying it was an "unfortunate incident" instead of "genocidal War crime" in an effort to remain NPOV?

Although what's funny is that when what UCLA did to sloan on that particular play, was their entire defensive gameplan during their 2nd half comeback. If UCLA had let's say, Cleveland State, NJIT, or Long Beach State, etc on the front of their jersey, then A&M probably shoots at least 10 more FT's during that game. But that's beside the point.

Here's another example of a blown call: http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u233/terpbe2/paulusanim.gif?t=1206133417 Notice how Greg Paulus steps out of bounds, with the ball. Guess what the call of that play was? If you saw the Duke on the front of his jersey, and assumed he got away with it, then you are correct. Does that mean all of a sudden, it's a "judgement call" as to whether or not you can step way out of bounds with the ball, and then throw it in? No, it's a blown call, and Belmont should have gotten possession, end of story. Although to be blunt, I could comb through the end of that Belmont-Duke game and count at least 5 more instances of when Belmont got jobbed. Such as intercepting an in-bounds pass because the target got sent to the ground. You can't throw a guy on the floor. But then, Duke can get away with stomping on someone's chest. See Christian Laettner.

The way it is now, with the words "(pictures show that they both appear to be grabbing Sloan, in what could have been a foul called on UCLA)" is perfectly fine. So don't hide behind the phrase "still interpretation of the photo", or opinion, or erase all mention of the incident.

Cfred got curbstomped. I win handidly. My edits are still there, and your lackluster phrasing of "NPOV! UNSOURCED" aren't going to work. I'll be waiting for you to revert this because apparently, some people take being told that they're wrong as "personal attacks". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.42.71.145 (talk) 08:20, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Memphis

According to http://www.wreg.com/wreg-ncaa-ruling,0,2372523.story and many other sources, I'm sure, Memphis has forfeited the entire 2007-08 season, which includes this tournament. Will this be treated as any other team that's vacated victories? 173.88.94.212 (talk) 22:16, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

It should be treated the same way. I'm not sure what that means. Does it make every game they played a forfeit adding a win to every team they defeated?67.188.128.11 (talk) 16:11, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

"vacate" does not equal "forfeit". There is no change in record of any team other than Memphis which simply has 38 fewer wins and 2 fewer losses on their all time record. Ryan2845 (talk) 16:51, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Memphis not fouling Kansas

The article claims that Memphis fouling Kansas on what turned out to be the final play would almost certainly have locked up a victory for Memphis. I hate to use "controversial" since it's generally used as a weasel-word, but there was significant controversy over this at the time. It's been a while, but the opposing case as I remember it was that Memphis had a very small window in which it made sense to foul, and Kansas managed to hit a very closely-guarded three within that window. If Memphis had fouled too soon, chances are that Kansas would have hit at least one free throw, fouled Memphis immediately and, given the way Memphis was performing at the line, come out of the free-throw exchange with a one or two point deficit instead of three, with time left to score. If they waited too long, Kansas had a chance to hit a three and tie it. I don't know if Memphis was trying to foul on the last shot (I remember hearing somewhere that they were), but keep in mind that that risks losing outright if the shot goes in despite the foul. Given how closely guarded it actually was and the quality of the shot, that's not too much of a stretch either.

At the very least, it doesn't seem fair (not to mention NPOV) to imply that Memphis blundered. Memphis left Kansas needing to execute perfectly even to have a chance to tie. If you leave your opponent in that situation and they do execute perfectly, they've just plain outplayed you. It happens. And that's my view (as a Kansas fan). Memphis played an excellent game and Kansas beat them anyway. --Dmh (talk) 15:18, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Here's an analysis by a Harvard student supporting the idea that there's not much to pick between fouling and not fouling when up three with time running out. --Dmh (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

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