Talk:2000 Ramallah lynching

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 May 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Referring to the two Israelis as "IDF reservists" is an inaccurate representation. They should be referred to as civilians, because they are civilians. IDF reservists makes it seem like they are willingly involved in the military. Almost all Israeli's are required to be reservists, and that does not change the fact that they are civilians. It should still be mentioned that they are reservists, but for the opening paragraph it should be changed to "Civilians". In summary change " Israel Defense Forces reservists." to "civilians." Ed1225 (talk) 17:33, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 23:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Israeli press called them "reservists" or "soldiers". They were reporting for duty in uniform with their weapons. Not civilians. Zero^talk 03:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, this is one of the more interesting and puzzling requests I have personally seen in the topic area. The perspective is surprising, that foreign soldiers on active duty on foreign soil are civilians because they are reservists. This is a way of thinking I've not seen before. I wonder how common it is in Israel (or Russia), how it comes about and whether any Wikipedia articles address it. Sean.hoyland (talk) 07:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Minor corrections to the record here. They were not on "active duty on foreign soil". They were reservists (as non-combatant drivers) of a foreign country driving in a civilian car to report for reserve duty -- which is not the same as active duty -- who were detained at another foreign country's roadblock. They were then transported by the local police to a police station. They were also in plainclothes, if one were to look at the (quite disturbing) photos of the incident, because reservists (in any country's military) are not considered to be on "duty" until they reach their base for assignment. This is different than the case of reservists who are activated to serve on active duty, such as what is occurring during the current Israel-Hamas war. So yes, technically, they were still civilians at the time of their detention, but non combatant would be a more appropriate word here. Zero0000, what sources support your statement that they were in uniform, because photos and video (not linking) of the lynchings beg to disagree? Longhornsg (talk) 07:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. So, in fact, I now realize that I probably don't really understand the nuances of the transition from non-combatant to combatant status as a non-combatant moves through time and space to report for duty as a combatant. Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I looked up the Jerusalem Post of the time and read the account of a journalist eye-witness that he knew that one of them was a soldier because of the khaki trousers and military boots. That's all I know about what they were wearing. Maybe they were dressed differently? The story linked above speaks of Arab headdress. I think that the clothing issue is confused by the rumor that they were undercover operatives. The Hebrew wiki explicitly says that their personal weapons were taken from them, so I take it that they were armed. It also says their duty began the day before(?). Israel considers enemy soldiers to be military targets whether they are on duty or not (same as US military law, also international law, see para 1677 here) so I don't see why the same shouldn't hold in reverse. In any case, none of this matters because we follow sources and all of the many sources I have looked at in the past couple of hours refer to them consistently as reservists or soldiers so we should too. Zero^talk 09:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, IHL also says they should be treated as POWs.

Thanks for your thoroughness. The page could use a lot of work anyway, so will make sure the language is also faithful to what the sources actually say. Longhornsg (talk) 16:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Incident section wrong link.

Currently the link of Vadim Nurzhitz Rank (OR-4) leads to Oregon's 4th congressional district however it should be a link to NATO Ranks like in Avrahamis case. 217.91.168.125 (talk) 14:49, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 September 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The link for Vadim Nurzhitz's rank directs to the page for Oregon's fourth Congressional distrtict rather than to Ranks and insignia of NATO armies enlisted as intended and as is done earlier in the same sentence. The link should be removed or corrected. 2601:588:4201:6460:971:AF7B:CFC4:FE2E (talk) 05:35, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done Bunnypranav (talk) 09:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Occupation

@OdNahlawi: [1] Why did you remove mention of the occupation from the lede? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is in the infobox OdNahlawi (talk) 07:32, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@OdNahlawi: There is no WP guideline saying that what is in the infobox cannot be part of the lede. Please restore it if that is the only reason. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One mention is enough OdNahlawi (talk) 10:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That appears to be based on nothing at all. Restored. nableezy - 15:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I think it should even be in the opening paragraph to establish context. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aziz Salha eliminated Oct 3, 2024

The guy in the infamous photo with the blood-soaked hands is gone. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-shin-bet-confirm-death-in-gaza-strike-of-palestinian-infamous-for-lynching-of-two-israeli-soldiers-in-2000/ tharsaile (talk) 17:36, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Red hand

The red hand which Palestine used, should it be me ruined on this article as this is whatxstarted thr usage? Finkyspinky (talk) 17:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how much of a symbol it is, as opposed to a matter of perceptions of different groups. When many Israelis see people with reddened hands in protests, they automatically think "Aziz Salha", but many of those who redden their hands in protests may not have heard of of Aziz Salha (he's not convenient to the conventional pro-Palestinian narrative). The group "Artists4Ceasefire" claims that their logo includes an orange hand, but when they passed out pins to celebrities at the Oscars in March, the hands on those pins were actually red, giving rise to a lot of suspicion and antagonism... AnonMoos (talk) 14:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have a response from artists4ceasefure why the pins had red hands instead of orange hands? Finkyspinky (talk) 17:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can look into that. It was presumably because having hundreds of 1-color buttons made was slightly cheaper than having hundreds of 2-color buttons made, but likely also because they didn't have anyone on staff who knew or cared about Israeli sensitivities. AnonMoos (talk) 22:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If thats the case then they intentionally used a red hand on the red background to create controversy. For a large organistion i see it as impossible to make such a mistake between orange/red.

It seems like they did this intentionally to send a message to Israelis.

They should of stuck with the orange hand rather than using a red hand. 2A02:C7C:CC63:1900:BCC5:DDCD:5BDB:AB01 (talk) 09:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]