Talk:1985 Brixton riot

Not a race riot

I was involved in this riot and it was in no sense a race riot. I am white as were a huge number of the rioters. Could some kindly admin rename this article '1985 Brixton riot' please? That would be far more historically accurate. Thanks.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 21:53, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello. It's in the catagory for race riots in the UK. So I apologise but if it's there then I have no alternative to leave the name as it is. Unless of course you can find sources which support that statement then I will be glad to move it for you. LOTRrules _Talk ^Contribs 21:56, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Can we take the word of a possible rioter? Police,Mad,Jack (talk · contribs)☺ 17:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Not really unless he can actually provide citations and references. One person on Wikipedia claiming to have been in the riot is close to taking anyones word on it. So no, in short.

I could take a photo of the bump on my nose where a riot policeman with a big stick broke it? :-)  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 08:28, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Also what about WP:Assume Good Faith ? Why would I lie? I don't see why it is in anyone's interest to have this subject mis-labelled as 'race' riot when it was an anti-police riot. Just my view.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 08:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Well with respect, but if you was rioting and you got your nose broken, surely that goes with the territory? But I agree with you, this was not a race riot. The officer who fired the shot later had all criminal charges dropped. Police,Mad,Jack (talk · contribs)☺ 16:16, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Police,Mad,Jack agrees with me that this was not a race riot so Wiki would be better if this article was more accurately title. Indeed if all three Brixton riot articles were so changed. It was a long time ago now unlikely to be any sources tho.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 11:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that this was not a race riot. For example, BBC "On This Day" website mentions no racial factors. How are you getting on with that online novel, by the way? Police,Mad,Jack (talk · contribs)☺ 17:31, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

It was moved on 26 Dec 2008, from 1985 Brixton riot - I would agree that it wasn't a 'race riot'; and its former name was more correct. Brixton always was a mixed community and during this period was largely 'safe' irrespective of colour. There is no question that the protests occurred due to excessive policing - the problem is the protesters and (later) rioters were never of one race - and that point is taken up in the article. I think the notion of Category:Race riots in the United Kingdom and the description of some of these events as 'race riots' is a bit WP:POINTY - it is indisputable these communities got a rough time, but they weren't 'ghettoes' in the US sense. Kbthompson (talk) 19:31, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it should be restored to its old name... if only because the riots are now popularly known as the Brixton riots. It would also be a more neutral title. Many riots have multiple causes and manifestations and these are best covered in the article itself.--SasiSasi (talk) 23:37, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

LOTRrules wanted a reference: Kenneth Leech Struggle in Babylon (Sheldon Press 1988) particularly - "Here these were not race riots - riots between races. Rather the conflict was with police as symbols of white authority, with state racism and criminalisation of black communities." quoted. "... then there was 'sus' - the suspicion clause which was used largely against young blacks. There was also the use of Section 4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824. Around half of those arrested under this section were black people. While the 'sus' offence has been abolished, the Police and Criminal Evidence Act didn't help. Passport raids and checks as a result of the Immigration Act 1971 were used mainly against the Asians." "The riots were about wider issues of poverty, unemployment and deprived neighbourhoods."

None of this denies that the state was (what we call today) institutionally rascist - but these tended to be 'equal opportunity' riots, where anyone could take a poke at authority - and settle scores. HTH Kbthompson (talk) 16:37, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Context

Rereading the articles 1981 and 1985 Brixton riots; and 1981 English race riots - that needs to be moved too. All lack context. The 1981 riots in particular took place in an atmosphere where new laws had been introduced and new powers given to police officers that had a disproportionate impact on the black and asian communities. A tory government was in power that sought to move cash from supporting the inner cities to the shires; and who blamed the local councils - often labour - and residents for their own condition.

Basically, the context was a powder keg. The articles, as they stand, only really deal with the individual sparks that set off the unrest. The articles also lack references. Although Leech offers a viewpoint, there should be plenty of background material in the Scarman report. Each of the Brixton riots were commented on (extensively) by the Brixton Council of Churches and London Churches Group; it should be possible to chase down some of that material.

If I remember correctly, there were also political consequences, in that the MPS instigated avenues of community consultation that began to address some of the institutional racism issues.

Any thoughts? Kbthompson (talk) 09:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Your welcome to extend the article, it surely does. However, you need references. I did some work on 1981 Brixton riot some time ago and although this is probably the best known and best documented Brixton riot, it was hard to find free online sources. Maybe try http://books.google.com/books?q=brixton+riot+1981&btnG=Search+Books .--SasiSasi (talk) 23:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Appreciate that; there's a lot of reading there! The Waddington looks to have an interesting multi-level analysis of the causes. Should try to get a flavour of that in the article. Kbthompson (talk) 14:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

it would be great if we could update the events and aftermath as well with intext references. In the moment the article does not meet Wikipedia quality standards in terms of references. Unfortunately I cant offer much help as I don’t have time, but I am happy to help with editing and reference formatting.--SasiSasi (talk) 21:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Tags

The article is tagged as lacking neutrality and needing a general clean-up and editors are advised to see the discussion on the Talk Page but I can see no reference to either of these issues here. No-one seems to dispute the neutrality and what is meant by a 'clean-up' ? If no-one can enlighten me on either of these issues I will remove the tags soon, SmokeyTheCat 07:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Why the lack of details about the actual shooting?

The entry reads ""...Mrs. Groce was in bed when the police began their search. Michael Groce was not there at the time of the shooting, and Mrs. Groce was paralysed below the waist by the police bullet." It lacks any actual information about the shooting itself. Was Mrs. Groce asleep in bed when she was shot? Was she attacking the police with a machine gun? -something in-between the two? Surely more could be fleshed out (so to speak) about the incident in question. Bricology (talk) 22:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Why the lack of details about Cherry Groce's death?

Is it that our National Health Service might have done a dis-service? Please Help. Thanks!

Auto wrote - 20141015 2050Z 81.159.208.88 (talk) 20:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

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Uprising

Please change to Brixton Uprising, not Brixton riots 213.205.200.49 (talk) 21:39, 4 February 2022 (UTC)