Talk:.460 Weatherby Magnum

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Merge

The pages .460 Weatherby, and .460 Weatherby Magnum are about the same cartridge, they need to be merged. Klauth 08:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WPMILHIST

This tagged has been removed due to this item being primarily a non-military related article.--Oldwildbill 12:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Trivia section yanked

I yanked the Trivia section for two reasons. One it is not in conformity to the WikiProject Firearms which sights in the Guidelines “Avoid pop culture and trivia sections.” Two, the trivia section had some vary dubious information, not sighted and was written from a non-Neutral Point Of View.

I decided to transfer the trivia section back to this talk page from a word processing document as a matter of civility.

I rewrote the article on the .378 Weatherby Magnum per the ammunition stub for expounded subject matter. I have sighted as much as possible with footnotes. I think that should put the trivia section to rest.

If there is substantial protest I can repaste the trivia section back to the main page. If someone thinks that there is critical information within the trivia section I can research it and put it into the body of work.

Greg Glover 02:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The .460 Weatherby Magnum was developed after professional guides and hunters in Africa loyal to Remington and Winchester successfully lobbied local governments to ban cartridges under .40 caliber for elephant hunting. This was done with the intent to keep Weatherby out of the market.[citation needed] Weatherby responded by upgrading the .378 Weatherby Magnum into the .460.
The .460 Weatherby Magnum can develop over 8,000 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.
The wildcat .475 A & M Magnum which develops over 13558 J (10,000 ft • lbf) of energy at the muzzle is a .460 Weatherby Magnum necked up to accommodate a 12 mm (.475 in) bullet.
The .460 Weatherby Magnum is another one of Roy Weatherby's double radius belted magnum designs. The belt originally was designed to simulate the positive headspacing of British rimmed cartridges,[citation needed] but still function through a magazine. The .460 Weatherby Magnum has become a symbol of a "magnum" or high velocity and high power, load. The belted design is hypothetically an inferior design to a cartridge that headspaces on the shoulder of the case, resulting in a lesser degree of accuracy. But when considering the purpose of this cartridge and the proximity to the game when hunted, MOA accuracy is of little concern.
In Peter Hathaway Capstick's novel Death in the Silent Places, he details an event where a client quickly and repeatedly fires a .460 at a charging lion. The man's nose begins to bleed after the second shot.

The above statement concerning the .475 A&M Magnum in the Trivia section originally appeared in P.O. Ackley’s book; Volume I, Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders, pg 504. In which Parker wrote, “Gunmakers who claim they are making America’s most powerful rifles had better take a look at the almost 10,000 lbs muzzle energy of the 500 grain .475 bullet.” Without rewriting much of the book, Parker was taking a veiled shoot at Roy Weatherby (whom he truly despised) and his .460 Weatherby Magnum. The above quote, in one form or another can be found on any number of web sites.

The fact is the 475 A&M Magnum can only produce around 8700 ft·lbf from a 26 in long barrel. To reach the 9,900 ft • lb_f muzzle energy range, which is “...almost 10,000 lbs...”, you must use a minium 38 in barrel.

The above computation was found using Le Duc’s Equation, Given: a maximum SAAMI working pressure for the parent case (.378 Weatherby Magnum) of 55,152 CUP maximum average; bullet weight of 500 gr; muzzle velocity of 2800 ft/s (suspect) and barrel length of 26 in. All velocities for wildcat cartridges including the 475 A&M Magnum were based either on a ballistics pendulum or an estimate and are highly suspect. Volume I was published in 1962 and Volume II was published in 1966. No electronic chronographs were available to the general public that I am a wear at that time. I have never read or found that the (long defunct) Atkinson and Marqurat Rifle Company had there cartridge commercially tested. The 475 A&M Magnum as far as I know was never adopted by the Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) or Commission Internationale Permanente (CIP). Greg Glover 00:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Penetration Controversy

The section on Penetration controversy is entirely unsourced. We need to either get some sources behind it or remove it. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 21:11, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 20:04, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Preferred units

We seem to have an inconsistent model for listing various measurements. Sometimes we have numbers in USA standard, sometimes metric/standard, sometimes standard/metric. If no one has any complaints, I suggest we switch to standard/metric using the convert template. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 17:40, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, no one complained so I did it. I think we now have ALL relevant measurements using convert templates in a consistent manner. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 20:03, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

SAAMI vs CIP Dimensions

I am not sure if I should have included the discrepancies between the SAAMI and CIP dimensions but it is included to be factually complete. If there is disagreement regarding this, this section will need to be re-written. The diagram which I have included corresponds to SAAMI dimensions for a couple of reasons

Weatherby has membership in SAAMI and the cartridges specification standardized by the organization.
Weatherby conducts its business out of North America

Two dimensions which are not provided by Weatherby OR SAAMI appear in the diagram and are provided as a point of reference ONLY. There two values are the S value and the shoulder angle (α), both appear as a broken line dimensions. These are not strictly speaking values provided by Weatherby for this cartridge. The S and α values in the diagram provided to show what the values would be. The S and α are CIP dimensions.

I need to hear from other readers/editors if these values should be provided or if the diagram should strictly show only what is strictly correct. Please leave some feedback regarding this issue.

I hope I am not adding more confusion to this subject.DeusImperator (talk) 07:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Crud - that's a tough one. Do any of your books about the .460 talk about the differences? AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:34, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have the detailed cartridge diagrams published under the aegis of the EU parliament for 2 years ago. Diagrams provided for them were by the CIP. SAAMI specs are provided by Barnes (latest diagrams) SAAMI has not updated public publications since 1992 but cartridge specs for the Weatherby line among others available to the SAAMI membership. Definite diffrences in dimensions but very small in the end. CIP file http://www.intermin.fi/intermin/images.nsf/files/B0E765375DA00143C2256FBE0032DD2A/$file/TABIIcal.pdf DeusImperator (talk) 02:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We could provide separate SAAMI and CIP specific diagrams as an option. Any thoughts? DeusImperator (talk) 02:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Should a section about the available ammunition be included?

Do you think the article should be expanded to include available ammunition?

If so it could look somewhat like this... Let me know if this works or change it so that it works. Please leave some feedback.

Weatherby provides three cartridge loadings for the .460 Weatherby Magnum. These are manufactured by Norma of Sweden and re-branded by Weatherby.
Weatherby Barnes TSX: Mono-metal expanding bullet made of copper with a better ballistic coefficient for longer range shooting of African dangerous game. Bullet used is the Barnes 450 grains (29 g)^*. TSX at 2,660 ft/s (810 m/s) for 7,072 ft⋅lbf (9,588 J) of energy.
Weatherby 500 gr. RN-EX: Uses the Hornady 500 grains (32 g)^*. DGX bullet a brass clad, steel jacketed, bonded lead bullet which provides a very slow controlled expansion. Ammunition is loaded to 7,505 ft⋅lbf (10,175 J) for 7505 ftlb of energy.
Weatherby 500 gr. FMJ: This cartridge loading uses the Hornady 500 grains (32 g)^* DGS bullet. It is non-expanding, brass clad, steel jacketed, bonded, lead bullet designed for African dangerous game in particular elephant. Ammunition is loaded to 2,600 ft/s (790 m/s) for 7,505 ft⋅lbf (10,175 J) of energy.

A-Square offers the Triad in the .460 Weatherby Magnum.
A-Square Lion Load: This is a rapidly expanding and fragmenting 500 grains (32 g)^* bullet designed for close-in shooting of thin skinned game. Cartridge is loaded to 2,580 ft/s (790 m/s) for 7,389 ft⋅lbf (10,018 J) energy.
A-Square Dead Tough: A 500 grains (32 g)^* controlled expansion, copper jacketed bonded core lead bullet designed for general purpose African dangerous game hunting. Cartridge is loaded to 2,580 ft/s (790 m/s) for 7,389 ft⋅lbf (10,018 J) energy.
A-Square Monolithic: This 500 grains (32 g)^* non-expanding bullet is made of a single non-steel alloy designed for African dangerous game. The cartridge is loaded to 2,580 ft/s (790 m/s) for 7,389 ft⋅lbf (10,018 J) energy.

The Connelly Precision Cartridge Company loads ammunition specifically for the Weatherby line of cartridges. Currently, they offer eleven loadings for the .460 Weatherby Magnum.
Connelly Precision Speer African Grand Slam: Cartridge is loaded with a non-expanding 500 grains (32 g)^* copper jacketed tungsten core Speer bullet. Ammunition is loaded to velocity if 2,650 ft/s (810 m/s) for 7,795 ft⋅lbf (10,569 J) energy.
Connelly Precision Barnes Original: A conventional 600 grains (39 g)^*. copper jacketed expanding bullet loaded to 2,490 ft/s (760 m/s) for 8,259 ft⋅lbf (11,198 J) of energy.

DeusImperator (talk) 18:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While it's potentially interesting, the only way we can include it is if we have some good sources talking about .460 ammo. Otherwise we're pretty much in the area of original research. So if we're careful, I'm all for it, but just doing a search for available ammo and then talking about each is probably outside the scope of what we should be doing. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:34, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Websites of these companies have the information. However, should there be an article other than the manufacturer's discussing this item? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeusImperator (talk • contribs) 06:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All areas needing cites have been referenced

The last one had to be deleted...

For that reason, many gun owners reload their cartridges with a lighter-than-factory charge.[citation needed]

The following sentences more or less capture the essence of the deleted sentence:

The .460 Weatherby Magnum cartridge has the flexibility to loaded to duplicate the performance of the .45-70 Government[16] to the .450 Rigby[17]. An advantage is the significantly lower recoil of such loadings.

Looking for Magazine publication and date

Earlier this year an article appeared in a magazine discussing the issues with bullets driven at Weatherby velocities which discusses the criticism noted in the main article. The magazine was handed to me by a colleague but since been lost when I dumped 20 years of gun mags out to clear come space. Does anyone recall the name and the issue date of the magazine? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeusImperator (talk • contribs) 03:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Article appeared in Outdoors Canada. Does anyone know the issue date and the article name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeusImperator (talk • contribs) 01:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Anything else worth discussing about the cartridge?

Does anyone have any recommendations, or any other topic that if fit for discussion regarding the 460 Weatherby? Thanks in advance DeusImperator (talk) 16:48, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

500 A-Square as The Most Powerful Cartridge

Hi Greg, Several proprietary and wildcat cartridges have eclipsed the .460 Weatherby Magnum. The 700 H&H NE, .475 A&M Magnum, .959 JDJ, 700 AHR, 500 A-Square, 550 Magnum are among the cartridges which can exceed the energy of the .460 Weatherby; but these are wildcat and proprietary cartridges as defined by "Cartridges of the World" encyclopedia. Commercial sporting cartridges such as the 505 Gibbs can be easily stoked to very high energy levels, but such loadings exceed cartridge specifications. So for conventional reasons the .460 remains the most powerful commercial sporting cartridge (at least for the moment anyway). I have added the line "Cartridges such as the .475 A&M Magnum, .500 A-Square, and the .550 Magnum which are based on the .460 Weatherby Magnum can exceed the performance of the parent cartridge, however, these are considered wildcat and proprietary cartridges." to reflect this fact. DeusImperator (talk) 15:15, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not that it makes any difference, since A-Square Company, Inc. ceased to exist on February 15th 2012. See http://www.scribd.com/doc/87203859/Sharps-Rifle-Company-Inc-Introduction-Document. But the .500 A-Square was a commercially produced rifle cartridge manufactured at the A-Square ammunition plant at 302 Antelope Dr, Chamberlain, SD 57325-104 (formerly from the Kentucky plant). Quality Cartridge at Hollywood, MD 20636 has also made brass for the .500 A-Square for many years.

CUP: 54,000 Max. Average; 62,100 Max. Individual

Piezo PSI: 65,000 Max. Average; 74,750 Max. Individual

The A-Square Company was a member of SAAMI and a Governing Body. I would say that made the .500 A-Square about as commercial as any cartridge could ever be. Greg Glover (talk) 03:46, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There appears good reason for the .500 A-Square to be classified as propitiatory cartridges as it has been by the Cartridges of the World - and no I do not take it to be as a tome be taken as a Bible Truth, so to speak as I know that some of the information is incorrect. However, that said having interviewed Col. AA on a few occasions I can state that A^2 did not produce more that 100 rifles in any given year in the course of its existence. For a majority of its existence it did not produce over 50 rifles a year. Hardly a commercial enterprise. DeusImperator (talk) 01:40, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Original Loading of the .460 Weatherby Magnum

Edit by 27.116.57.249

The .460 Weatherby Magnum requires a case with the large propellant capacity necessary to propel a 500 gr (32 g) bullet at 2,600 ft/s (790 m/s). Whilst billed originally as being able to reach 2700fps with a 500gn bullet, this being the printed velocity for weatherby ammunition, it is closer to maximum at 2600fps.

There is much evidence that the cartridge is capable of reaching 2700 ft/s from reloading manuals as published by Hornady and Weatherby. Original loading as by the testing methods of the day calculated at 2700 ft/s. While older Hornady manuals do provide data for loading the cartridge to 2700 ft/s and tested using the chronographs this was revised in later manuals in accordance the velocity rating of their bullets. If the bullet is not capable of performing above a given velocity, Horandy in accordance with their policy have chosen not to provide data for loadings above this velocity. This is explicitly and implicitly stated in their newer manuals. Hornady supplies the bullets for the Weatherby cartridge.

Correction to image needed

There is an error in the image in the Infobox. On the right margin of the image is a metric ruler to show the scale of the cartridges being compared. The ruler reads "1 cm, 2 cm...8 cm, 8 cm". The second "8 cm" should be corrected to "9 cm". 96.236.213.217 (talk) 13:12, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Leaving the permanently dead citation link

There is a dead citation link to the SAAMI website, and I was unable to find an archived version of the document in any internet archives. The only thing I didn't do was reach out to the SAAMI org to see if they have a copy since they don't have a method of contact on their website. Since the content/context of the citation seems important to the article, I'm leaving it in place per WP:KDL but I wanted to make a note for any future editors fighting WP:LINKROT. Clifflandis (talk) 15:21, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]