Help talk:IPA/Hungarian

Dzéta

Mit jelent az a szó, hogy "dzéta"?

What does the word "dzéta" mean?

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.134.178.225 (talk • contribs) 09:04, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

hu:dzéta Qorilla (talk) 12:25, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

"Dzéta" means diet. Mgasparin (talk) 03:08, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Do you have any reference for this? As a native, I’ve never heard this word with this meaning. Diet is (among other translations) diéta, not dzéta. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 21:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Ö and Ő

There is not only a difference between the length but also in the way pronounced short 'ö' and long 'ő', long 'ő' is closed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.2.106.137 (talk) 22:34, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
   <sarcasm on> Gosh, but it's comforting that this otherwise embarrassing problem has been fixed by ignoring the existence of these symbols in the accompanying article.<sarcasm off>
--Jerzy•t 02:53, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

English examples

Any chance of some English approximations, from someone who knows a bit about Hungarian phonology? Lfh (talk) 14:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

assimilation

Moving the nice assimilation tables here, as they're too complex for a simple IPA key. Will add some of their examples to the key. For length, we'll want a new section, but without so much detail. We just need people to recognize the IPA when they see it. kwami (talk) 18:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Assimilations Before Letter IPA Example Nasal place assimilation p, b, m n m színpad f, v n ɱ különféle m hamvas ty, gy, ny n ɲ pinty k, g n ŋ munka Voice assimilation p, t, c, cs, k, ty, f, sz, s, h b p dobtam d t adhat dz ts edzhet dzs tʃ bridzstől g k fogtam gy c ágytól v f szívtam z s méztől zs ʃ rúzstól b, d, dz, dzs, g, gy, z, zs p b képzés t d hétből c dz ketrecben cs dʒ ácsból k ɡ zsákból ty ɟ pintyből f v széfben sz z mészből s ʒ hasba Elision of [l] r l r balra

Assimilations Letter 1 Letter 2 IPA Example Sibilant assimilation consonant sz tsː metszet c nádcukor s tʃː kétség cs hegycsúcs sz s ʃː egészség z község sz zs ʒː vadászzsákmány z száraz zsömle s sz sː kisszerű zs varázsszer s z zː tilos zóna zs parázs zene Platal assimilation gy j ɟː nagyja d adja l jː tolja n ɲː unja ny hányja t cː látja ty atyja d gy ɟː hadgyakorlat t nemzetgyűlés d ty cː vadtyúk t hat tyúk d ny ɟɲ dʲɲ lúdnyak t cɲ tʲɲ átnyúlik

Doubled consonants

Are we really representing long consonants with a long marker? Why not just put a second consonant? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 22:09, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

That's fine. I found Jobbik using the IPA-en template, and I couldn't tell if it was supposed to be English, or was Hungarian in the wrong template. I don't even know if it has an English pronunciation. So I switched to IPA-hu, but was missing the gemination, so added that. I'll go ahead and change it. — kwami (talk) 23:11, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

That's not the Hungarian pronunciation. That would be with [o]. And what is the problem with long markers? There is a difference between a long b and two bs, one after the other (both occours in Hungarian, however the latter is very rare). - Matthew Beta (talk) 14:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

You're saying that Hungarian makes a contrast between [bb] and [bː]? I'm very skeptical.

How does the literature transcribe long consonants? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 19:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Per The Phonology of Hungarian, Péter Siptár & Miklós Törkenczy, p. 189, it would seem that assimilated clusters are normally reduced to geminates, apart from affricates, which are "fake geminates" ([tsts] etc) except in very fast speech. — kwami (talk) 20:50, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Ambiguous "English approximation"

The English approximation for ø is listed as "nurse". This is ambiguous as the typical American English pronunciation is /nəɻs/, where the typical British English pronunciation is /nɜːs/. Which is it, and is there a less ambiguous approximation? --Oldak Quill 17:40, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the typical American English pronunciation is [ɝ], which differs from the British one in the shape of the tongue. In both instances, this vowel is the closest English approximation. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 01:16, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

English approximations for vowel length

I think better examples for the phonemes that contrast by length would be English minimal pairs that also differ (allophonically) in vowel length. So "need" and "neat", "mood" and "moot". framed0000 20:28, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

That would be less clear, IMHO. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 12:14, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

RP hot?

What does "RP hot" indicate? Regular pronunciation? The english approximation for ɒ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.207.79.0 (talk) 20:54, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Examples

Several of the second words in the Examples column are wrong. Nobody pronounces "széfből" as "szévből" or "ácsból" as "ádzsból". This page doesn't help at all. – Alensha ^talk 00:34, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

This is a clear example in which being a native speaker doesn't make you an expert at your language's phonology. See Hungarian phonology#Voice assimilation to see why you're wrong. Peter238 (talk) 15:57, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

In one sense he is right: This page has no sense for those, who would read it (99.99% foreigners). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.76.36.16 (talk) 09:52, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Several of the examples are showing the "low-class" pronunciation. Some people say these words like that (incorrectly), but it's not a good example to set and shouldn't be followed by foreigners trying to learn the language. These are not even local dialectal pronunciations, just plain wrong, uneducated ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.174.85.14 (talk) 20:57, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Missing [ʎ]?

I used this HU IPA page to make one for Latvian ('cause most of the consonants are very much alike) today I noticed I didn't have [ʎ] (lol!) which means that you don't have it either. OK, I won't pretend to be a pro at HU phonology but I think you forgot to include it. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 01:26, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Hungarian used to have it (ly) but today we pronounce [j] instead. – 81.182.166.170 (talk) 19:11, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Stress?

Since stress falls on the first syllable of a word, is it necessary to mark it? An online dictionary I found doesn't mark them for instance.
--Maczkopeti (talk) 08:15, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

It's enough that marking it is useful for non-experts. Yes, stress isn't phonemic, but our transcriptions aren't phonemic either. The same question could be asked e.g. on Help talk:IPA for Icelandic. I see no strong reason not to transcribe it. Mr KEBAB (talk) 08:46, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Another thing: non-experts may think that stressless transcriptions are incomplete, especially if they're provided alongside IPA for other languages. Considering this, I think not transcribing stress is a bad idea. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:29, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Ü and Ű

ü and ű are transcribed as [y] and [yː] respectively. However, looking at the vowel chart for Hungarian,
the ü/ű are closer to central than front, and using [ʉ] and [ʉː] respectively would be preferred.
In the vowel chart for Swedish, we have both [y] and [ʉ]; and honestly confusing to see ü and [y], as it sounds more like [ʉ] Liggliluff (talk) 19:41, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Liggliluff: You mean that Hungarian /yː/ sounds like (Stockholm) Swedish /ʉː/? I agree, but that's because Stockholm Swedish actually contrasts three close front vowels - unrounded /iː/, protruded /yː/ and compressed /ʉː/ (see roundedness to learn what 'protruded' and 'compressed' means), which I would rather transcribe /iː, i̹ː, yː/ - ignoring the glide (Swedish high vowels tend to end in the corresponding fricative/approximant), Swedish /iː, ʉː/ sound pretty much like Hungarian or German /iː, yː/, whereas Swedish /yː/ is a kind of an in-between sound that, to me at least, sounds somewhat closer to Hungarian/German /iː/ than to Hungarian/German /yː/. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:24, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: Ignoring the comparasion to the Swedish language. The Hungarian Ü is closer to the position of /ʉ/ than /y/ when simply looking at the vowel chart for Hungarian. Compression or not doesn't matter, as the character used only represents the position.

The Swedish /yː/ is rounded, so how can it be /i̹ː/? (But that's besides the point). Liggliluff (talk) 05:57, 03 December 2016 (UTC)

@Liggliluff: [i̹ː] means 'more rounded [iː]' - notice the diacritic below. The point isn't that it's rounded, but its type of rounding - Swedish /yː/ and /ʉː/ are both close front rounded vowels, the only difference is in the type of rounding - /yː/ is protruded, whereas /ʉː/ is compressed.

Yes, it's closer to [ʉː], but only slightly, and its still considerably more front than cardinal [ʉ]. Besides, Hungarian doesn't have contrastive central vowels, just front and back. As far as phonology and vowel harmony is concerned, /y, yː/ are front. Mr KEBAB (talk) 09:44, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: I see how you're thinking now. However, the whole point of IPA was to show how a language is pronounced. Using the wrong symbol defeats this purpouse.

Liggliluff (talk) 07:11, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

@Liggliluff: I think that we've already established that /y/ is not a wrong symbol for the Hungarian vowel - see above. Mr KEBAB (talk) 11:01, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

An Error

kisszerű: the first s is pronounced /sh/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.76.36.16 (talk) 08:52, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

You mean /ʃ/? Mr KEBAB (talk) 09:33, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes.

Or it can be pronounced zs, too (e.g. zsák, rouge). k-i-s-sz-e-r-ű, or k-i-zs-sz-e-r-ű. For IPA: s it's just a false example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.76.36.16 (talk) 10:52, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

So [ˈkiʃsɛryː] or [ˈkiʒsɛryː]? I have no problem with the former, but the latter pronunciation violates the rule of voicing assimilation, according to which only [ˈkiʃsɛryː] is possible. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:07, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't know what the rule of voicing assimilation is, but I'm a native speaker and this discussion here made me think how I pronounced this word. I don't think [ˈkiʃsɛryː] or [ˈkiʒsɛryː] accurately describe it. The first one is the "correct" pronunciation if you just pronounce "kis" and then "szerű". The second one I would say is an attempt to capture actual pronunciation of the compound word but it's not quite right. Having thought about this I don't know if IPA has a symbol for the sound used... it's the same as the "s" in British "street" though. That's usually just written [ˈstriːt] even though it isn't the same [s] as in for example "see"... Wu Chinese also has this sound. If anyone can enlighten my what IPA symbol corresponds to it I'd be grateful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.174.87.109 (talk) 20:41, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Marginal vowels

Where is long A and E used in Hungarian? Apart form Moldavia. I mean in which words? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.76.36.16 (talk) 08:57, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

AFAICR, according to Szende (1994), /ɒː/ and /ɛː/ appear only as the pronunciation of the letters ⟨a⟩ and ⟨e⟩. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:09, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Name order

I've noticed in most articles that Hungarian pronunciations are given in the Western name order, unless the Hungarian name is indicated in the opening. The problem is that in the former case, assimilations can't be properly indicated. For instance, Bartók Béla is [ˈbɒrtoːɡ ˈbeːlɒ], but Bartók in isolation is [ˈbɒrtoːk]. Would it be reasonable to have the native order for Hungarian pronunciations in all cases? --maczkopeti (talk) 19:22, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Other error

szívtam is not pronounced with an f - it is pronounced with a v - exactly as it is written. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.175.97.108 (talk) 11:50, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Try actually saying it and pay attention to how you say it. Try to say it in a sentence at normal speed. I actually don't pronounce it with [v] or even [f].. it's completely silent. Kind of sounds like [sitã]. If someone is like "Mi?"... then I would say it very slowly and pronounce the [v]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.174.87.109 (talk) 20:53, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

The page is full of pronunciation errors (and I know because I'm a native Hungarian speaker), so you probably want to have a check on the page with a Hungarian Linguistics professional - as some of the seemingly incorrect things are in fact actually correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atzimler (talk • contribs) 12:14, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Degemination

The part about the Degemination is incorrect, nobody shortens folttal to foltɒl, people would not even understand what you mean. I wonder how this even came up, Maybe from a non-native speaker? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bxabi (talk • contribs) 18:14, 14 May 2021 (UTC)