Draft talk:Seigneurie and Fief of Anneville

Notability

This subject is borderline notable and would be better merged into a wider article on feudalism in Guernsey. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 07:32, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Curb Safe Charmer: Since there is no Feudalism in Guernsey article, that might be tough. Given that this was only recently moved to article space from draft space, would you like me to push this back to draft? - UtherSRG (talk) 11:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Ânes-pur-sàng and Ave: your thoughts? My concern is that no publications appear to have written about this subject in any depth and what we have here is pieced together from mentions or primary sources. Also, there are quite a lot of statements without a source, or which have been cited but fail verification. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 13:12, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Curb Safe Charmer: thanks for the ping. I tend to agree with you. A fair bit of usable content here but probably better housed in an article with wider scope. —Ave (talk) 18:33, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Curb Safe Charmer, since this has already been through AfC it should have gone to AfD instead. I'm fine with integrating this into a broader topic, but that's not likely to happen outside of mainspace. – bradv 21:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Bradv: interesting take. I'm one of those that thinks the WP:DRAFTIFY guidance could be made clearer but there's nothing in there that says that articles that have been accepted at AfC cannot be draftified. Indeed, as drafticiation is one course of action at NPP, a good proportion of articles that patrollers review have already been through AfC and we AfC reviewers see it as a useful second set of eyes. I was given confidence to draftify it by the patroller UtherSRG, an admin, who if I hadn't done so was willing to do so themself. Draftification is a means of incubation while the article is improved and we already see the author doing just that. This draft will remain on my watchlist and if it improves sufficiently I will be happy to accept it. As I live in the adjacent Channel Island and have Guernsey roots, I'm keen to see how it develops. Perhaps the author might take up my suggestion of broadening it into an article about feudalism in Guernsey, rather than focussing on just one of approximately 24 fiefs on the island. There's plenty material to expand the Seigneur article, too. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 09:51, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

And this is why AfC is so backlogged all the time – reviewers are far too picky. We are not supposed to reject articles that are "borderline" notable. Per the reviewing instructions:

Rejection is appropriate when you genuinely believe the page would be uncontroversially deleted if it were an article (i.e., the page would be an overwhelming "delete" at AfD, or clearly meet a CSD article criterion).

According to that my decision to accept the draft was correct. And the place to settle disagreements about whether the subject is notable is AfD. – bradv 14:49, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. As things stand, sending this article to AfD immediately after being accepted at AfC is the only option, other than attempting some cleanup. There are times, like this, that AfC is, on its own, not fully up to the task of dealing with problematic drafts. If there were a AfD-ish form of AfC, this could have been sent to that for a discussion among several reviewers as to how to disposition the draft. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:57, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

That said, draftifying is something I choose to do sometimes, as a means to have a second reviewer gets eyes on the article. And here's another way that AfC is flawed - a single reviewer is all that's required to accept an article, instead of requiring concurrence from two or more reviewers. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:06, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

It would quite like to see a Feudalism in the Channel Islands article, as there are great similarities between the islands and feudalism is not well covered in existing articles. Possibly with chunks of this article used as an example of a fief through the years if it is deemed not to warrant being an independent article. I may have time this summer to try and create one. Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 18:04, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

@Ânes-pur-sàng: I have started Draft:Feudalism in the Channel Islands and would welcome contributions from Marcblondins. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 13:51, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Excellent idea! Indeed, feudalism was the main governing system in Guernsey and Jersey until the early 20th century and remained in Sark until quite recently. This system has left an indelible mark on the cultural and historical landscape of the islands. Notably, a select few families have historically produced most of the bailiffs and governors. I plan to incorporate my insights shortly. Additionally, I've expanded and I am refining several aspects of the Anneville draft for a more comprehensive view. Marcblondins (talk) 01:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

@Marcblondins: now that Feudalism in the Channel Islands exists, generic content about feudalism in Guernsey should be added there. The draft on Anneville should be reduced to information specific to Anneville.

In response to a comment you made elsewhere, you need to limit what you're writing to what you can cite to publicly available information, rather than write from your own considerable knowledge on the subject. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 14:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I second the latter thought. WP:BACKWARD is a good essay describing this process. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:37, 27 September 2023 (UTC)