Wikipedia talk:WikiProject TCR Series/Archive 2

TCR Las Americas

With TCR Las Americas set to be re-launched (again)[1][2], should we create a 2018 TCR Las Americas Series article then? Or should we wait until its more certain? Your thoughts @Link7344 @Ivaneurope?? CGM 20 (talk) 18:43, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

I say let's wait the full calendar and whether or not there would be entries at all.@Link7344 @CGM 20 Ivaneurope (talk) 18:49, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

FIA WTCR World Touring Car Cup

Alright, with the news that WTCC and TCR would merge into single series - FIA WTCR - there's a slight problem: what should we do now?

• Should we rename/move either the WTCC or TCR article
• Should we merge them
• Should we create a new FIA WTCR article like it was done with FIA Formula 2 after it replaced GP2

Need your thoughts @CGM 20, @Link7344 Ivaneurope (talk) 14:59, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I have been wondering the same thing myself. So here is some thoughts: TCR International Series, WTCC & ETCC articles should stay as they are because most articles state that all three of them will be discontinued. So all in all i think we should create a new article for the sort-of-new-series, im just not sure if the name should be FIA World Touring Car Cup or FIA WTCR World Touring Car Cup? Thats my thoughts @Ivaneurope CGM 20 (talk) 16:36, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

De-conflating the TCR International Series article

Hi all - I am new to this project but have for some time felt that the state of TCR-related articles on Wikipedia is poor, and I would like to help rectify this.

As I see it, several different entities have been conflated into the TCR International Series article, which should really exclusively concern that one particular championship.

Here are the articles I feel should exist:

• 'TCR (technical regulations)' - the TCR regulations that define the legal TCR Car. Article format would be similar to Super 2000. A subsection in this article should be used for explaining the difference between the TCR regulations and the FIA-licensed WTCR regulations (namely, the freeze and FIA passport).

• 'List of TCR Series' - Simple list of links to series, without additional blurbs. Subdivided into sections for 'International TCR Series', 'Regional TCR Series', and 'Series including TCR classes'. Perhaps worthwhile further separating into 'active' and 'defunct'.

• 'TCR International Series' - The original monolithic article should be retained, but exclusively for the (now defunct) TCR-I series. This article should be similar in format to Scandinavian Touring Car Championship.

• 'FIA World Touring Car Cup' - an article for the new merged series. WTCR should not feature in the title; for it is an acronym (all be it a bad one).

• Regional Series Articles - while some regional series already have their own articles, I feel that all should so that the list article can be as clear as possible. With the amount of series these days, this is necessary to maintain readability.

I do not feel it is necessary to maintain the table with all champions in all TCR series - after-all, there is no such article for all GT3 victors - but if this is desired perhaps a 'List of Regional TCR Champions' article would suffice?

I look forward to your feedback on this proposal. If the consensus is that it should be enacted, I am sure I could find some more capable editors to assist us in its implementation, as I moderate the /r/Touring_Cars community on reddit.

NotJohnHindhaugh (talk) 12:29, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi @NotJohnHindhaugh and welcome to this project and Wikipedia.
First of all i think you have made some valid points and many of them definitely true. But there is also some points that i will say are a bit more questionable (no offense meant). But i will give you my thoughts on your points.
1. I agree with you that a article for the TCR regulation would make sense like the Super 2000 counterpart and i think we should discuss the content of a possible future article further, before actually creating it. About the difference between TCR regulations and WTCR regulations: AFAIK there is no difference in the specs to which the cars are build to, but there is of course a difference in the Sporting regulations. But that does not necessarily need to be in such an article.
2. IMHO a new article just for the "List of TCR Series'" would not be needed, as we already have the Template:TCR Series championships which is shown at bottom of every official TCR Series' article.
3. The TCR International Series article does need some tidying/cleaning up and a lot of the current content could be moved to the a possible future TCR regulations article. But yet again, we need to discuss these things kinda separately so that everyone can agree on the same things.
4. The new FIA World Touring Car Cup or whatever its name will end up being, is still very new and it doesn't matter if you think WTCR doesn't fit in the title. Its all about what the common name becomes, ie. what the promoter calls it or shows on logos. So if they show a logo that says, FIA WTCR World Touring Car Cup then that is what the name should be.
5. AFAIK no regional TCR Series' have their own page/article, some have redirects that sends you to the section in the TCR International Series article that tells you about the certain TCR Series, TCR Asia Series is a example of this.
Lastly there has been a lot of discussions about the table containing the regional or national TCR champions, but overtime we came to the conclusion that it has its place here. Just because there isn't one for GT3 champions, doesn't mean it shouldn't be there, an example of a similar table can be found in the Renault Clio Cup article.
I hope you will read this with an open mind and not be offended if I at times sound harsh in what im writing, its not meant that way. I hope to hear back from you and our other members of this lovely Wiki project. CGM 20 (talk) 17:18, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi @CGM 20

• "AFAIK there is no difference in the specs to which the cars are build to, but there is of course a difference in the Sporting regulations" - this is my understanding also, hence I don't think that WTCR (the specification, not the series) requires its own page. Nonetheless, I think it deserves mention on the article for TCR (the regulations).

• "We need to discuss these things kinda separately so that everyone can agree on the same things" - absolutely; I didn't want to rush in and make loads of sweeping changes without consensus. I'm not totally sure where the best place is to hold these discussions however. I would appreciate guidance on finding the appropriate place to discuss this.

• Regarding the name of the article for the new international series, I think that FIA World Touring Car Cup has already become fairly standard. TouringCarTimes uses it, as does Autosport. It's 'World Touring Car Cup', or 'WTCR' for short; just as 'British Touring Car Championship' is 'BTCC'. I realise that it's important for a common name to be established, but isn't it better to just chose something and if need be change the page name later? Surely this would be better than leaving the series languishing in the regional series subsection of the TCR International article!

• Regarding the blurbs about the regional series - the series with existing articles I was referring to are those which existed before their TCR incarnation. Scandinavian Touring Car Championship is an example. Without wishing to start a flame war, I feel strongly (and have for quite some time) that the TCR International Series page is not the appropriate page for these series. It's confusing, and gives the impression that the regional series somehow contribute to the international championship (which they don't). Furthermore, the heading section of the TCR International Series page describes it as defunct, which could easily give the uninformed reader the impression that all the regional series are themselves defunct. This seems as non-sensical as Formula 2 being a sub-section to the Formula 1 article. Even if you don't feel that each series should have its own article, which I do understand, surely at least moving the blurbs to their own article would make sense?

• Regarding the table, I am totally fine with it existing as long as people are happy to maintain it. Perhaps it could be moved into the same article as all the regional series blurbs.

Thanks for your constructive comment and I appreciate your welcoming me to the project. You don't sound overly harsh at all - I really appreciate that there's others who care about the quality of Touring Car articles on wikipedia.

NotJohnHindhaugh (talk) 18:41, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi again @NotJohnHindhaugh.
1. Great, then we understand each other and agree.
2. If TCR related these things can be discussed here (under a new sub-section).
3. I agree that this name seems to have become the common name and you are of course right that it could just be renamed (moved) to the correct name if needed in the future.
4/5. Once again i agree. The content regarding the TCR regional series', would be better suited for a TCR regulations article/page.

I will tag @Ivaneurope and @Link7344 so they can give their thoughts also. CGM 20 (talk) 19:39, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

First of all, I'd like to welcome you @NotJohnHindhaugh - hopefully you'd be helpful enough to expand the TCR Wikiverse.

Now up to the points you've mentioned
1. I kinda agree that we should separate the TCR technical regulations from the TCR Series.
2. I think this needs to be discussed further.
3. It's already explained in point 1. The TCR article itself is kinda messy already.
4. Until we get additional information we can't be sure 100% how the new series would be called. For now it's FIA World Touring Car Cup.
5. This has been discussed earlier and we've jumped to conclusion that it's not needed. Series that use the TCR rulset like Scandinavia and Italy have articles on their own as they've been already established prior to the introduction of TCR. Adding individual articles for every TCR series would result in tons of stubed articles that would be nomminated for deletion anyway. So for now all TCR-related series would be in unified article with "Main Article" added to series with existing one.

What @CGM 20 said, some series have the same table format pointing the champions in the individual series that use the same ruleset. Like Clio Cup.

I'd add a non-WP:TCR member in this discussion, who created the 2018 World Touring Car Cup article and could have his say on the WTCR issue @Prisonermonkeys.Ivaneurope (talk) 20:20, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello everybody. It is difficult for me to participate fully in the discussion because of the language problem. But I agree that we need to divide the main article into an article about the technical regulations of TCR (which can include information about national series) and an article on the International Series TCR. Link7344 (talk) 21:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks @Ivaneurope and @CGM 20
I appreciate your feedback and accept the points that you have made.

Here is a prototype of a seperate page to split some of the information that should perhaps not be in the TCR International Series article into its own article. It'd be great if you guys could look over it and see if you think it is a workable idea.
NotJohnHindhaugh (talk) 22:15, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I think your prototype page is almost ready to go "live", but there is a few things I would like to address:
1. You will need to add some categories at the bottom of the page, also i would properly add the Template:TCR Series championships and Template:Class of Auto racing. You would also need to add the Notes section further down otherwise the notes placed in the Eligible cars table won't work.
2. The naming of the page. I'm not sure the name should be TCR Touring Car, TCR (TCN-2) or TCR (touring car regulations) might be more in the "Wikipedia spirit". The only thing that speak against the TCR (TCN-2) variant is that TCN-2 was FIA's failed attempt at making an almost identical set of regulations, with the only difference being the size in fuel tanks. It was quite literally a copy-and-paste job by the FIA... TCN-2 was however scrapped after the 2015–16 seasons because VAG (Volkswagen, SEAT & Audi) didn't want to homologate their cars to TCN-2.
Your thoughts on the naming? @Ivaneurope, @Link7344, @NotJohnHindhaugh. CGM 20 (talk) 07:21, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@CGM 20:

"So if they show a logo that says, FIA WTCR World Touring Car Cup then that is what the name should be."

WP:COMMONNAME dictates that the name of the article should be based on what the majority of English-language third-party sources use, and right now they use "FIA World Touring Car Cup". Prisonermonkeys (talk) 07:33, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@CGM 20 Thanks for your guidance. I deliberated for quite a long time over the name and I couldn't really think of any that I actually liked. I decided to take the approach of TCR Touring Car because this bears similarity to Next Generation Touring Car, and is a term used in the technical regulations (albeit a term for the abstract reference vehicle). Perhaps the best solution would be TCR (touring car specification)? I prefer specification to regulation as in my view the regulation is just the implementation of the specification. Specification is also preferred by existing articles such as Next Generation Touring Car and Super 2000. NotJohnHindhaugh (talk) 08:32, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@NotJohnHindhaugh Im glad I can help. You are making some good point about both NGTC and S2000 and so if the name becomes TCR (touring car regulation) or TCR (touring car specification) is not for me to say, they are both accurate and i like them equally. So if you and others vote for second one (TCR (touring car specification)) then I will be fine with it. CGM 20 (talk) 10:19, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@CGM 20 I have implemented the changes we have discussed in a new prototype page here. If anyone has any further opinions on the naming of the page, I would like to hear their thoughts.

Another consideration is the TCR International Series article. Under this proposal, the majority of it will be transferred to the new TCR (touring car specification) article, leaving very little body content. Perhaps a write-up of each season would be appropriate, and a note on the series' retirement in favor of the World Touring Car Cup?

NotJohnHindhaugh (talk) 14:59, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@NotJohnHindhaugh the page is looking good. About the TCR International Series, i think your idea with a season write up (highlight) would be a good idea and would certainly give some content for the article. CGM 20 (talk) 08:27, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@CGM 20 I've started work on a TCR International Series prototype page. I encourage anyone interested to contribute to it so that, if possible, both the new TCR (touring car specification) and the revised TCR International Series articles can go live at the same time. NotJohnHindhaugh (talk) 09:16, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@NotJohnHindhaugh I have added a 2015 season highlight to the prototype article, i can create 2016 and 2017 highlight if needed. CGM 20 (talk) 16:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@CGM 20 Looks great - and thanks for fixing the egregious errors I made in my stub entries. It's impressive how wrong one can be when typing mindlessly! NotJohnHindhaugh (talk) 18:08, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

First of all Happy New (Motorsport) Year! Secondly TCR 2018 seasons

Hello all! As we steadily prepare all the 2018 articles for the season start. I thought it was about time we discussed some of the uncreated 2018 season articles.

• 2018 TCR Ibérico? or 2018 TCR Portugal? Apparently the Ibérico series isn't completely dead after all, i assume it will run within the Portuguese series. So should we include in the 2018 TCR Portugal Touring Car Championship article? Or create its own article?
• TCR Swiss Trophy. Should we create a separate article or include it in the 2018 TCR Series seasons article?

I believe it is best to include it in 2018 TCR Series seasons for now, because it cannot fit in TCR Europe or ADAC TCR and is a bit of a mix. When they have their own series we should consider "promoting" the championship to their own page. Poppo154 (talk) 15:43, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

• 2018 TCR BeNeLux, will run within TCR Europe, but should a separate mention be made in 2018 TCR Series seasons? Or should separat standings be shown in 2018 TCR Europe Series?

I vote to include the season in the 2018 TCR Europe Series article as a sub-class (such as the Spanish F3 championship within Euro F3 Open) Poppo154 (talk) 15:37, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

• "TCR Spain": There is still a sort of TCR Spain in 2018, but it has reverted to the 2016 setup, being run within the Spanish endurance championship. So should we create the entire Spanish endurance championship or should we create it like in 2016 Trofeo de España TCR or just add to the 2018 TCR Series seasons?
• TCR Baltic and TCR China: Both have had their calendars announced in the TCR Magazine, should they be created based upon this, or should we wait for further confirmations?

Let's await the first round and see how the season kicks off Poppo154 (talk) 15:43, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

• Lastly TCR Las América looks like it once again will not be held, based upon them not being mentioned in the TCR Magazine.

Mid-2018.... pretty vague and fast coming up, so we wait and see

Your thoughts? @Ivaneurope, @Link7344, @Poppo154 & @NotJohnHindhaugh. CGM 20 (talk) 14:28, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks @CGM 20, now back to buisness:

• TCR Ibérico is defunct as per TouringCarTimes article and there would be seperate TCR Portugal season. Calendar is publishe on the FPAK website.
• TCR Swiss Trophy - we have the calendar, but we don't have information for the entries.
• TCR Spain - this is only a class within the CER, than its standalone thing. It's not considered part of the TCR family
• TCR China - an article has to be made since TeamWork Motorsport announced entries for this season.

Ivaneurope (talk) 14:59, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you @Ivaneurope & @Poppo154.
I dont think Ibérico is totally defunct as per:
Other than that i agree with what you have both said. CGM 20 (talk) 16:18, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Then we might add TCR Iberico Trophy in the 2018 TCR Series seasons as there are only three rounds featured (Two from TCR Portugal and 1 from TCR Europe). @CGM 20 Ivaneurope (talk) 16:31, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

TCR China has a website, it should be added to the article. I think TCR Swiss does not need its own article, add to the TCR Series 2018. TCR BeNeLux 2018 should be in TCR Europe with the appropriate links in the header of the article, as in the combined article TCR Iberico 2017. Link7344 (talk) 16:51, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

OK, so in conclusion we should do the following

• TCR Ibérico and TCR Swiss trophies would be in the 2018 TCR Series summary article as they are merely subcategories of other series.
• TCR China would need to have 2018 season article as it has confirmed entries and calendar.
• TCR Spain - the aricle should be named 2018 Campeonato España Resistencia (en: 2018 Spanish Endurance Championship) and will have structure like the one used in the 2018 24H TCE Series article.
• TCR Las Americas - as far as we're concerned the calendar is partially announced on TouringCarTimes and there were some talks that drivers from the Caribbean were interested, but the drivers portion is vauge. The Las Americas portion would be in the 2018 TCR Series summary article until further notice (subject to further confirmation).

Your thoughts? @CGM 20, @Link7344, @Poppo154 & @NotJohnHindhaugh

I agree with the above. CGM 20 (talk) 12:04, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Cupra TCR

As you probobly have known SEAT would badge their 2018 homologated Léon TCR car under the new Cupra performance brand. Although it's true, the car is still SEAT abeit with Cupra reskin. When you add the car in teams and drivers sections on TCR related articles the name should be SEAT Léon Cupra TCR.

Any questions? @CGM 20, @Link7344, @Poppo154 & @NotJohnHindhaugh Ivaneurope (talk) 14:41, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

The Cupra website states the car as CUPRA TCR (https://www.cupraofficial.com/en/cars/cupra-tcr/technical-data ) I believe that is the leading source Poppo154 (talk) 08:15, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

TouringCarTimes lists the car as Cupra Léon TCR - this would be the name used in TCR articles with entries using the Cupra branded Léon TCR. This is my stance @CGM 20, @Link7344, @Poppo154 & @NotJohnHindhaugh Ivaneurope (talk) 16:47, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree with your stance, mostly due to the fact that (to me) it sounds better than Cupra TCR. The only comment i have other than that, is if Cupra should be "Cupra" or "CUPRA"? @Ivaneurope, @Link7344, @Poppo154 & @NotJohnHindhaugh CGM 20 (talk) 20:12, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Not sure, some websites write it with all letters in uppercase. Much like the SEAT name itself. CUPRA Léon TCR could also work out. @CGM 20, @Link7344, @Poppo154 & @NotJohnHindhaugh Ivaneurope (talk) 20:17, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by IP users

Recently TCR-related pages are becomming an target for users who do not register on Wikipedia and only the IP is shown. Most of their additions are purely arbitrary without any sources whatsoever. These edits have become rampant and I need your urgent assistance to patrool the pages. @CGM 20, @Link7344, @Poppo154 & @NotJohnHindhaugh Ivaneurope (talk) 20:59, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

@Ivaneurope, I completely understand and will support this as much as possible, if this continues we will need the articles to get page protection. CGM 20 (talk) 09:14, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

References

DO NOT EDIT THIS Ivaneurope (talk) 07:26, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

TCR UK drivers' championship

TCR UK is a rare series in which pilots get many points in qualification. In other series, we mark the first five positions for which the pilots receive points. Maybe it's worth adding to the table the third column with the positions in the qualification? (Google translator) @CGM 20, @Ivaneurope, @Poppo154 & @NotJohnHindhaugh Link7344 (talk) 16:59, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

IMO We should do like what it's done in other series - superscripting the qualifying positions next to the Race 1 results. @Link7344 Ivaneurope (talk) 17:47, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

It will be quite difficult to perceive the table, I think. @Ivaneurope Link7344 (talk) 18:14, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ivaneurope do you mean, when we put a small 1, 2 or 3 besides the Race 1 result? I like the idea of having qualifying results in the standings, but i have no idea, how it could be fitted into the table other than what is currently used. CGM 20 (talk) 19:12, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

@CGM 20 Yes and actually I've already done this. Ivaneurope (talk) 20:45, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

2018 Campeonato de España de Resistencia

The 2018 Trofeo de España TCR article is renamed 2018 Campeonato de España de Resistencia as it's merely a class like in Touring Car Endurance Series or Super Taikyu Series. The entry list format would follow the same format as in the mentioned series. Objections? @CGM 20, @Link7344, @Poppo154 & @NotJohnHindhaugh Ivaneurope (talk) 15:36, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

I have no objections to this @Ivaneurope. CGM 20 (talk) 20:39, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

JSB Compétition - French or Belgian team

There is an edit in the 2018 TCR Europe Series article, made by a fellow WP member @Link7344, that causes a dispute - mainly with the JSB Compétition nationality (is it French or Belgian team). It is established by previous participations in TCR International Series that the team is indeed French and on TCR Europe's website the team is listed as French. Now, TCR Benelux for this year has established the eligibility of drivers - any driver from the Benelux region or driving for a team from the said region is eligible to score points. And here's the issue - since JSB is being listed as French team, how come their drivers score points in TCR Benelux?

One can argue that the eligibility is also extended to French teams and/or drivers since France does not have its own TCR series yet and French drivers have raced in TCR Benelux in the past. Or the fact that JSB also holds Belgian racing license thus making the team and its drivers eligible.

So, to sum it up - JSB Compétition is and will be listed in the TCR Europe Series' Teams and drivers list as French with a footnote added to signify that they're also eligible in TCR Benelux. And also if there are two categories in TCR series (like TCR Benelux sharing agreement with TCR Europe) for the teams and drivers' nationalities we're looking at the main championship - in this case TCR Europe.

Objections? @CGM 20, @Link7344, @Poppo154 & @NotJohnHindhaugh Ivaneurope (talk) 11:18, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I completely agree that JSB is an French team, BUT this [3] source, does state that they will race under Belgian license. @Ivaneurope CGM 20 (talk) 11:54, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

The rules say: any drivers of the BeNeLux region and all drivers from the BeNeLux region teams can score points in TCR_BeNeLux. Two French drivers of the JSB Racing team are considered participants of the TCR BeNeLux because their team has a Belgian license.

My opinion is that the Belgian flag must be indicated, according to the license and reliable source[4]. In extreme cases, we can specify both flags.

Not so long ago, in a article WTCR 2018, someone replaced the Scottish flag of Gordon Shedden with the British flag, citing the fact that Gordon had a British racing license, not a Scottish one. Link7344 (talk) 16:01, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

When thinking back at last years TCR International Series, Romeo Ferraris was run under Georgian license under the GE Force banner. This case with JSB is similar and the Belgian flag would properly be the right way to go. Otherwise we will just have to show both the French and Belgian flag, as sources differ. CGM 20 (talk) 17:08, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Pictures of TCR cars

Hi guys and galls, have a look here:

I categorized the pictures of TCR cars by car and make. Most pictures are 24H TCES, TCR Europe or ADAC TCR. Comments are welcome. Poppo154 (talk) 19:34, 10 June 2018 (UTC)