Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Snooker/Archives/2023/April

Flags for unknown players

Hi! I've been thinking this for some time now, but is there any reason we put in flags for unknown players such as at Special:Diff/1147507703? I get that we know the Sporting country of a player if it's a selection of players who are all English, but sources never do this, and it sometimes gets as far as someone having a flag for a country two or three matches removed. Does anyone have any thoughts on writing this in/out of our MOS? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:48, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Personally I'm completely against it. Seems daft to me, a case of WP:Don't jump the gun. However many of our regular score-updaters seem keen on it. As such I'm wondering whether adding something to MOS:SNOOKER would serve any purpose. Editors might well simply ignore it. Personally I try to be firm on the live frame-score aspect, and also use of partial scores (eg "10–") but I've never bothered about the flag issue. Nigej (talk) 16:38, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I get that it might not help, but the more we stomp out and specify bad practice, the more we clamp down on it, the less it happens. I've noticed (whilst still happens) less live scores in the last year or so. This isn't a big deal, it's just clearly not great practice, and actually writing it down would help. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:57, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

You're probably right. The live updates do seem to be dying out (touch wood). We would need to cover the use in the infobox/final table too (see 2023 Tour Championship where we already have flags there for the winner and runner-up and even an endash for the score). Nigej (talk) 20:42, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

and at 2022–23 snooker season too. Nigej (talk) 20:42, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I think we should stop these flags. It seems to me that they violate MOS:FLAG, which states "Accompany flags with country names", and "Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country or nationality – such as military units or national sports teams" (MOS:WORDPRECEDENCE); and perhaps also violate MOS:FLAGCRUFT: "Do not emphasize nationality without good reason". BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Mink Nutcharut

I made a redirect for Mink Nutcharut, but thinking about it, that should probably be the location of the article itself. My logic is that all official scoring data uses this name over her official birth name of “Nutcharut Wongharuthai”. I guess this is a similar case to Sunny Akani? Thoughts welcome @Lee Vilenski: {{Ping|Nigej}] —CitroenLover (talk) 17:06, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

• @Nigej: CitroenLover (talk) 17:06, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I suppose WP:COMMONNAME is relevant here. James Wattana comes to mind. If a player has chosen some new style of name for their professional appearances, I suspect we should be going with that. A delay might be in order to see whether it really catches on in sources. Nigej (talk) 17:18, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

The redirect is useful. I agree with keeping the change on hold for now. See e.g. WPBSA Snooker Scores, WWS Profile, Eurosport item from today, SCMP from 1 July. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:06, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

COMMONNAME is indeed the policy to look at. I don't think we are at that stage yet, so a redirect is suitable. If you need someone to do a move over a redirect later on after she's established under that name, let me know. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:22, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks all, i think this is a good idea to wait. @BennyOnTheLoose: its worth noting that wst’s live scoring site at https://livescores.worldsnookerdata.com/ uses the name Mink Nutcharut [see archived scoring for cl snooker stage one/week 2] but unless someone sees the scoreboard physically in the arena at one of the upcoming tournaments, we provably won’t know how she’s being referred to officially. CitroenLover (talk) 09:02, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

It's worth noting that we do actually look out for that being the name they are most known by. Even if the WST used that name for this season, she'd still need to be in a few high profile matches for this to be more known than her WWS name. We don't just change names because they are used by official tournaments, otherwise we would have changed it to Jimmy Brown temporarily. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:38, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

thats fair lee. 👍 CitroenLover (talk) 20:02, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Lee Vilenski: i think we should move Nutcharut Wongharuthai to the redirect, as the snookerscores.net website has no data for her under the former name, but has all her matches under the name Mink Nutcharut, which would strongly imply its the common name. CitroenLover (talk) 13:52, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree that she's probably more well known under that name, not least due to the World Mixed Doubles. I'd be happy with a move. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:11, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good. @Nigej: @BennyOnTheLoose: any objections from you both on moving the page so that Nutcharut Wongharuthai becomes the redirect and Mink Nutcharut becomes the base page name? -- CitroenLover (talk) 17:33, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Seems sensible. My only concern is that we shouldn't go back and "correct" her name in earlier tournaments. Her name in tournament articles should be the name used at the time. The redirect then sorts out the rest. Nigej (talk) 18:08, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Agree Nigej, with the birth name remaining as a redirect, it shouldn’t be updated to say anything else for her pre-2022/23 season matches. CitroenLover (talk) 19:39, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Looking at recent news stories, "Mink Nutcharut" seems to be the more commonly used alternative. Her WWS profile also has "Mink Nutcharut" as the heading now. I'm happy with the article title being changed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:50, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

If we're listing Nutcharut Wongharuthai as Mink Nutcharut, then surely we should also list Siripaporn Nuanthakhamjan as Baipat Siripaporn, per the name she's more commonly known as in snooker reporting? See e.g., this article https://wst.tv/baipat-is-world-womens-champion/ HurricaneHiggins (talk) 11:27, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's true now, I'd be happy for a move, but with redirect on old title. It's always a COMMONNAME thing. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:43, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

You may well be right. Looks like snooker.org has switched. I notice though that https://snookerscores.net/player/siripaporn-nuanthakhamjan is still the older name. Nigej (talk) 11:44, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

As ever, if we do make the change we need to follow WP:DONOTFIXIT, WP:NOPIPE, MOS:NOPIPE. Nigej (talk) 11:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, all. If we do decide to move it, I'd appreciate if someone else could do the technical parts because I'm not sure how. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 11:53, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. I've gone ahead and made the change. There's no need to change the piping unless they are [[name|name]]. AWB can solve this, and I'll do a run on Tuesday when I'm next on PC unless it's been done. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:56, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Lee! HurricaneHiggins (talk) 12:04, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I suspect we're a little confused as to what name she should be called by in her own article. I assume that Siripaporn is her family name and we should be using that, per MOS:FAMILYNAME. Similar issues with Nutcharut. Nigej (talk) 12:09, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Good question. As regards Mink, I believe Nutcharut is her first name, Wongharuthai is her family name, and Mink is a nickname. But when she joined the pro tour, she started using "Mink Nutcharut" -- she said somewhere that Thai family names are too long and convoluted for foreigners to pronounce and spell. This does create a question around how we should refer to her in the article, though. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 12:19, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

So, we should use a stage name (in these cases, this is the best comparrison) to refer to the person, but also include their real name. The opening should start with their real name (see example - Ringo Starr), although I didn't know what the actual full name is & feel free to reorder this if it's suitable. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:58, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I like the Ringo Starr comparison, and the "known professionally as" in the lead. That seems a good precedent for what is happening here, where these players have decided to be known professionally as something other than their birth names. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 13:32, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Championship League: Too many flags

I've finished tidying up the flags for all the non-ranking Championship League tournaments, except for the second one held in 2020, which was a different format to all the others.

I would like to modify this article, and make its format as similar as possible to the others, by moving each group's set of frame scores to above the group's table, and deleting all the unnecessary flagicons.

Would anyone object if I was to change this article?

If this change is acceptable, then I might do the same to the articles for the three ranking Championship League tournaments held in 2020, 2021 and 2022.

Alan AlH42 (talk) 18:40, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

To me it's clear that the match results in 2020 Championship League (2019–20 season) (and similar articles) don't need flags. The flags in the table are enough. Also I notice that 2022 Championship League (ranking) is using ndash for negative numbers, WP:MINUS says "Do not use hyphens (-) or dashes (– or —)." The use of hyphens and ndashes is very common in wikipedia but really we should be using the minus sign. Nigej (talk) 18:59, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, good work. We should be limiting flag usage, so we don't need it for every match as well as in the tables. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:08, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I see what you mean about the – for a -. I'll have a look at that while I'm at it.

Alan. AlH42 (talk) 19:25, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

A Minus − and an Ndash – look quite similar on most devices. Hyphen - is more noticeably different. Nigej (talk) 19:39, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Is it better to use &minus then?

Alan AlH42 (talk) 19:56, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Not too sure. 3 options. You can either cut and paste the minus symbol, use the Minus template, or use &minus+semi-colon ie −. The {{Minus}} template gets substituted so is basically the same as the cut and paste option. Nigej (talk) 20:20, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Just noticed that in the 2023 article minus signs have been used instead of ndash for match scores. Does this matter?

Also, I'll have to go back to 2008 and 2009 at some stage to correct the plusses and minuses.

I've finished working on 2020 (ranking) and 2021 (ranking). Have a look if you have the time and let me know if they are OK.

Just 2022 (ranking) still to do.

Alan. AlH42 (talk) 14:16, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I use this script to fix dashes. Makes it all very easy. – Pbrks ^(t • c) 14:33, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Looks like it was just 2 groups in the 2023 article, I've changed them. Nigej (talk) 14:36, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you.

Alan. AlH42 (talk) 14:43, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:18, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

2023-24 article page

While we don't have an official calendar from WST at this stage [but no doubt we will get one soon, considering where we are in the season], we are starting to see individual tournament announcements for some of the main UK-based events: that being the Triple Crown Series, some Home Nations and the Champ of Champs. With that in mind, it may be worth having the next seasons' page created so that, at the very minimum, we can have a basic table for events we know the dates for. --CitroenLover (talk) 20:15, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Just noticed that snooker.org is now showing some dates for 23-24 at https://www.snooker.org/res/index.asp?season=2023&template=2&tour=all.

Also mostly confirmed by https://wst.tv/tickets/.

Alan. AlH42 (talk) 15:43, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Old talk page

It looks like Talk:List of snooker terms should be merged to Talk:Glossary of cue sports terms and then deleted. I could probably find out how to do this but I hope by posting here it will just happen. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Featured articles

Now that we have over 30 Featured Articles, is there any reason not to sort them alphabetically like we do for Good Articles on the WikiProject Snooker page? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:49, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I've only been doing this chronologically because I'm lazy. Happy to sort them however. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:38, 20 April 2023 (UTC)