Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Snooker/Archives/2022/October

Champ of Champs qualification table

I thought it would be better to bring this up here than on the CoC talkpage, but every time I read these articles about the qualifying tournaments and players, the order of the table makes no sense. All I've managed to glean is that tournaments seem to be getting grouped by their type: for example, the previous CoC and triple crown events are shown first. Following that are the majority of other non-series specific qualifying events, the Home Nations and then random other tournaments, before a list of qualifying players because of their world ranking.

This order does not make any sense and is very confusing to read. It would be more useful to sort this table by the events in the order they actually happened. The first entry should always be the previous Champ of Champs, then after that, all qualifying events (ie, events which provide a passage to the next version of the tournament) in the order that they appeared on the main tour calendars. This would be easier to read, than the disjointed order we currently have (which has the World Championship runner up in a separate row randomly, instead of being listed next to the winner of the tournament). Thanks. -- CitroenLover (talk) 15:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: @Nigej: @BenjidogFourEyes: ^ above --CitroenLover (talk) 17:33, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

The current order is the priority that the WST gives for their events, not something we have chosen. I get it's a bit confusing, but it's important that we state which events guarantee a spot, and which ones don't. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi Lee, sorry I'm confused because I don't know what you're referring to by WST prioritising their events for the COC, a tournament they don't (technically) run? I just went to the official website and the qualifying tournaments to get into it are just listed in the order they were played in during the season from the last edition [excluding all duplicate winners]. No such ordering like we use on this wiki is used, so I'd like a source to what you're referring to, so I can better understand your position. :) -- CitroenLover (talk) 20:28, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: bump ^_^ -- CitroenLover (talk) 18:26, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I can only go on the 2019 edition as that's the one I worked on - but there was very much a tiered list for qualifiers, see [1] Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. Considering that's on the WPBSA website, I can't tell if thats just them grouping events for simplicity on their part or if thats a true order of "priority", considering that its under the purview of Matchroom Multi-Sport rather than being part of WST [although technically, they're just the same people]. That being, no such priority order seems to be being used for this years' edition, but we'll have to wait for more information nearer the time I guess. Honestly, it would make more logical sense to organise the list based on when the events were played from the last edition to most recent, but thats just me. -- CitroenLover (talk) 18:39, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

There is more than 16 tournaments, so they have to mark some items as being maybes. This generally means they group the Triple Crown events at the top, followed by the highest rated ranking events and then later some invitational events. I, er... Can't say I've looked into this year's event. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

My worry is that the system has probably changed almost every year and the "one size fits all" approach is perhaps not the way forward. See eg this from 2014 https://championofchampionssnooker.co.uk/qualification-process/ which says "The list is in order of precedence. After the first 15 events have concluded, the remaining spots will be filled in the order listed below, until the point that 16 different players have qualified and accepted their invitation." and I think we do follow that in the 2014 Champion of Champions article eg Steve Davis last of the winners, although clearly not the last event played. Nigej (talk) 19:14, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Nigej: I ended up looking around the CoC website and found an outdated document similar to that one for this years' Champ of Champs which was also grouped in the same way, but unlike previous years, pretty much every event from the main tour was listed as a qualifying evennt. Of course thats to be expected because of the Covid pandemic reducing how many events are available [and the document hasn't been updated to remove the Six-Reds which is certain to either happen "after" the COC for this year, or not at all until next season]. Alternative to the grouping of priority is to just list the events that they are using as qualification to the Champ of Champs, but in the order they were played between the two editions? -- CitroenLover (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

WST haven't really explained things very clearly (and some may possibly say not at all). According to the WST website:

The qualifying list is comprised of 24 places, which are split into six sections. Tournaments within each of the six sections are listed chronologically. The first 16 different players on the list will form the field for the Cazoo Champion of Champions. ([2]https://wst.tv/cazoo-champion-of-champions-qualifying-schedule/)

This document ([3]https://championofchampionssnooker.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/1-CofC-Qualifying-Schedule-2022.pdf) seems to outline which group each tournament belongs to, although I can't see anything that says what would happen if each event had a different winner. Would only the winners of the top 16 events (the current Northern Ireland Open is the 16th event on that list) be included and everyone else miss out? Don't get me started on the fact that this list is also well out of date (missing a number of finished tournaments, and still includes the postponed World 6 Red Championship). From what I can gather, there are 14 confirmed entrants so far (add Ryan Day and Kyren Wilson to the 12 other 'unique winners' in the pdf document), plus a potential fifteenth player should there be a unique winner of the Northern Ireland Open which, by my calculations, would mean that Mark Selby would qualify as the highest ranked 'non-winner' and Mark Williams appears most likely to take the final spot if someone who has already qualified wins the Northern Ireland Open. Steveflan (talk) 19:03, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

New navboxes

I see we have a couple of new navboxes: {{UK Championship winners}} and {{Masters winners}}, added to the long-standing {{World snooker champions}}. Personally I'm not a fan of these. WP:NAVBOXes are "are a grouping of links used in multiple related articles to facilitate navigation between those articles in Wikipedia". To me these are not really useful for that purpose, being more of the decorative/banner type which pervade many sports biographies (see Ronnie O'Sullivan#External links). Happy to let it go if that's the general consensus here, otherwise I might try to get them removed. Nigej (talk) 19:11, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm fine with the world championship one - this is entirely keeping with other sports, having a template of winners of the biggest prize. Other events are kinda a slippery slope until we get a template for all the winners of the Black and Decker East Tooting Handicap league. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:56, 24 October 2022 (UTC)