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Archive made 09:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

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Proposed changes to non-English WOSM member article titles

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User:Evrik proposes changes of article titles to nearly all articles in Category:WOSM member organizations according to the translations given on http://www.scout.org/en/around_the_world/countries/national_scout_organisations (see Special:Contributions/Evrik).

In my experience scout.org is not very accurate - neither in its translations nor in the membership numbers or the years Scouting started: Nearly all of their data are incorrect.

One example: Ring deutscher Pfadfinderverbände is translated as Scout Federation of Germany, which is neither a official translation (there is none) nor a literal one (which would be Circle of German Scout Associations). Worse, the proposed translation could also apply to the non-aligned Deutscher Pfadfinderverband so we would need a disambiguation page for two articles wich are really clear divided when using the official German titles.

I'm not really happy that Evrik started renaming of articles [1] before finishing the discussion (it started on Talk:Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy) but I won't revert his edits until we finish this discussion. --jergen 09:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PS: Pls see also Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/RulesStandards#Article names. We have to change this rule when following Evrik's proposal to Articles must have an English title - even if its not used, inofficial, incorrect or ambigious. --jergen 09:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I did however, tag most the European members of the WOSM for one reason ... they don't fit in with the established policy set forth at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Scouting/RulesStandards#Article_names. I quote the first paragraph, "Use the Wiki guideline at Naming conventions to name articles. This same guideline says to use the Roman alphabet and standard English spelling (ie, Vienna not Wien). It also says to use the original spelling and alphabet in the first line of the article. Only use the foreign name if it meets this standard: If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language."
I believe I am correctly quoting the policy. I have no intent on making a mass change without some sort of discussion, but I wanted to start that discussion. What does everyone else think? --evrik 09:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you quoted right, but in most cases there is no commonly used English translation. The transaltions given by WOSM are quite rough (often wrong) and made up from a set of standard translations. I think they are given as a hint for the reader. Normally - even in its official documents - WOSM uses the original language when adreesing an association (one of several examples [2]). --jergen 09:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not going to spend my entire weekend arguing this case. I also don't want to quibble about whether or not each of the translations is bad or not. I think that having the titles in a foreign language, when they can be translated into something more easily understood benefits the reader. If you don't want to accept the English version of thr WOSM as a guide, then how do you suggest we come up with an acceptbale standard for translating them into English? --evrik 10:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
One more example for the unaccurateness of scout.org [3]. The informations on Belgian Scouting given by WOSM are outdated and incorrect.
For literal translations pls see the respective talk pages - WOSM gives bad translation even when the association uses an official English translation of its title. --jergen 10:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You quoted the rule right above "If there is no commonly used English name" - and this is correct in nearly all proposed cases - with the only exception of Scouts of Greece. So why change the names; they are all within the rules of WP:UE? --jergen 10:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Greece ... I think I went with the one on the WOSM page, which is different (and I was trying to hold to one standard). I don't think that literal translations are always the best. If the Belgian Scouting page is outdated, then we should look for an acceptable English translation. I'm not trying to advocate English only, or English always, but a lot of these page title don't make sense on the English wiki (like the Magyar one). --evrik 10:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The guideline says "only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form". For those scouting associations, where there is no anglicizid form, this clearly and unambiguously states to use the native spelling. And it does so for good reason: There will always be several ways to translate the proper names of the associations, which will create ambiguities. LARS 12:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion 1

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  • If moving any of the articles, we shold use the official translations and not those given by WOSM.
  • scout.org is no reliable source, half of the cases where a official translation exists are wrong. This means: We shouldn't accept scout.org as single source for a move.
  • In every case we should check he usage via Google; a move does not make sense when the English translation is not in use on English pages but the non-English is heavenly used. Please remember, that the title should show the commonly used form. --jergen 13:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To add to the discussion: In my humble opinion we definitely should NOT use a translated name or title that is not really commonly used in English. Adding a redirect for a proposed translation is fine, but, e.g., moving Scouting Nederland to Scouting Netherlands should be a lead verybody astray. So, feel free to add redirects for all WOSM-based names (which are known to be very inaccurate), but generally please keep the articles at their proper name. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 16:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Also coming here via the Scouting Nederland, I feel that we should only switch to English names if the organizations themselves have declared an English alternative. The translations by WOSM are clearly not making sense and certainly not used commonly, whereas coming up with new translations ourselves constitutes clear original research. So only move the organizations which have chosen an english name for themselves seem like the solution to me. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 18:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This has come up before and needs settled once and for all. As I said last time, However the article names end up, we need redirects for each one. I strongly suggest no more changes be made til this is settled. Rlevse 02:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that Scouting Nederland is close enough to what it would be in English that it may not matter, but it isn't grammatically correct in English, nor is it what is on the WOSM page. It is however, the name used on the English verion of their own page... The case of Scouting Nederland makes me think that we may have to address each of the titles separately. In any case, these are some of my thoughts.
Whatever name we decide on, should make sense in English. We may have to address each one individually, but we should rely on the WOSM page, or a documented official trnslation. If there is no official translation, the name should be translated into a form that makes sense in English. Savez izviđača Hrvatske to Scout Association of Croatia is a good example. --evrik 02:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If we have to address each one individually, we can close this discussion and split it in (estimated) 150 individual discussions... --jergen 06:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion 2

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As far as I can see, there are four main points which should be resolved:

  1. Do we need a common rule or should we go for individual solutions?
  2. How should WP:UE be applied? (Mainly: When is an English translation seen as "commonly used"?)
  3. What sources can be used? (Mainly: Is scout.org a reliable source?)
  4. Can we use "own" translations (as article titles/redirects) or is this original research?

I hope this will help to focus the discussion. I ask you to concentrate on these central questions and not to discuss individual solutions. --jergen 06:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  1. I'd say individual solutions, given the diversity of names and problems (sometimes a single, sometimes multiple organizations per country for example).
  2. As I stated above, only use the English name if the organization itself uses it. WP:UE says: If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted transliteration, but this is followed by: Latin-alphabet languages, ..., should need no transliteration.
  3. Scout.org clearly was wrong in a few cases on the list mentioned above, so I'd say only use the sites of the individual organizations (see number 2)
  4. That definately is original research in my view. We are also not inventing new names for cities that have no English name, are we?
--Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 10:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I am writing this, I am referring to both WikiProject Scouting - Rules Standards, Article names and Wikipedia:Naming conventions. My comments on Jergen’s four points.

  1. We need a common rule or framework that we can use to address the whole group. The individual solutions should all be reflected in our framework. This means that the framework will have more than one rule. We should use the name that makes the most sense and is grammatically correct in English.
  2. I’m only half serious when I remind you all that this is the English-language Wikipedia-- not Wikipédia, or “Википедии.” Would it be wrong to paraphrase Wikipedia policy as “to use the name that most people in that language would refer to it as?” I think that we use English whenver we can, with a redirect in the orginal language, and the original language name in the first line. English language users would not say Hitachdut Hatsofim Ve Hatsofot Be Israel, but would say Israel Boy and Girl Scouts Federation.
  3. We use whatever sources are necessary (scout.org, individual country websites, etc).
  4. If an organization itself doesn’t use an English language name we can use our own translations – this does not mean literal translations unless they make sense, Beslidhja Skaut Albania and Albanian Scout Association. I think that if we can agree on guidelines, that we can come to consensus on the names – and no, this is not original research. This is an effort to make our work more accessible to people using the English language Wikipedia.
--evrik 14:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just my answers - some hours after posing the questions:
  1. I'd like to have a framework of rules that should have some flexibility. Such a framework avoids unnecessary discussions; if we go for individual solutions we may repeat the same discussion quite often.
  2. Commonly used English translations are to me
    • all official translations (by the bearer of the name)
    • translations that are in frequent use in English sources (except copies of the WOSM membership list); this is not the case if English sources use the non-English name and give only once the English translation; perhaps the usage could be checked via Google?
  3. I'd like to propose a kind of ranking of possible sources: 1. official sources (material published by the respective association); 2. reliable web sources; 3. unreliable web sources that should be crossreferences. Actually, I'd put scout.org in 3, since it's known for its inaccurateness.
  4. I do not think that translations are original research, but we should use them carefully: In all those cases without good sources we should leave the article under the non-English title; it should have a redirect from the English translation. I'm against translations that "are known to be incorrect but may make sense".
    Taking up your example - AFAIK nobody here speaks Albanian; so how do we know that Beslidhja Skaut Albania means Albanian Scout Association? (BTW: Bes-/Besa seems to have some connections to "oath".) Another example for the difficulties of translating can be read at Talk:Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy.
Why did I exclude the "copies of the WOSM membership list" from the sources for common use? Quite simple: to me a copy is not a real use, it's just repeating anybody else's standpoint. --jergen 16:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with most of what Jergen says ... the biggest difference of opinion is the authority of the WOSM.org page, which he completely disregards. --evrik 16:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes the proposal sounds fair. I still feel we should be very careful in translating ourselves, given the problems that undoubtly will arise (see the italian example). But in clear-cut cases I now agree we can go aheed with translating. With regard to WOSM, I certainly would give it less authority then the individual organizations themselves, but treat it similar to other websites. WOSM doesn't have any authority over the names of the national organizations. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 18:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I rated scout.org/WOSM in the category of unreliable source since its database is bad; it's not only the bad translation but it gives also wrong years for Scouting started in many cases (until recently scout.org gave 1949 for Germany, correct is 1910). Links to websites are outdated or not mentioned, and so on. --jergen

Proposed Framework

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These changes are being done in order to bring the foreign-language article titles into compliance with the spirit of both WikiProject Scouting - Rules Standards, Article names and Wikipedia:Naming conventions.

  • Each foreign-language page will be discussed in the order that it appears on the WOSM page. The first page will be Beslidhja Skaut Albania, and the last The Boy Scouts Association of Zimbabwe. Notifications will be made on each talk page, but the discussion will be held here.
  • If there is an official translations (by the organization) that should be the name of the article used.
  • If there is no official translation:
    • translations that are in frequent use in English sources
    • WOSM membership list
    • the name translated into a form that makes sense in English.
should all be used to build a consensus on the name.

Comments

Alternative proposal

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From watching the very first of many discussions to come (Albania, see below), I think it is clear that coming up with English names for all organizations is both unwanted and impossible. As an alternative I suggest that we make redirects for all countries in the format Scouting in XXXX, like for example Scouting in the United States, which already exists. If there are more scouting organizations in that particular country, it will become a disambiguation page. If there is only one organization, we make it a redirect to the page of that particular organization, which then stays under its only official (non-english) name. This will allow easier navigiation and searching for scouting organizations in different countries, without all the trouble of coming up with impossible names that nobody uses except Wikipedia. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 12:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I gave this one its own section, because it is not a framework for deciding how to rename. It is an alternative proposal to not rename, but make logical, consequent, redirects instead. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I support this proposal-that way we are being both true to the organization and making them easy to find. Chris 01:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mediation

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Mediation attempt by Rlevse

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This issue has come up before (see project page talk archives), but this time is much more heated. It needs to be settled so I shall attempt to mediate. I'd tried to stay out of this but had to finally come in. WP:UE says basically the same thing as our project rules page, some of it I even copied from WP:UE..that is to use the more common spelling that occurs in English (Vienna vs Wien). I've looked over the talk and it appear most disputes arise from organizations that don't have common English names or no official English translation. Yes, I see that as a problem. I also see that 3 users are the main participants: Evrik-strongly on the UE side, with Jergen and Reinoutr favoring keeping articles in their original language (if Latin alphabet), plus Wimvandorst seems to be on this side.

Here are things as I see them: 1) No one seems to be making an effort to have redirects made, regardless of which script the article lies in. I spot checked some and no redirects existed. For example Latvian Scout and Guide Central Organisation did NOT redirect to Latvijas Skautu un Gaidu Centrālā Organizācija. The Latvia article now redirects as I just created it. I totally agree with those who complain this makes it hard to find articles. In this Lativa case, the name does appear at the top of the article and wiki and project policy clearly state redirects should be in place. If you work on these articles, make sure the redirects are in place. 2) Review Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(use_English)#Examples. We are not the only group to have problems in this area. Reinoutr is right, there is no clear Wiki policy requiring organization names being translated, just often hard to interpret guidelines about how common something is. 3) The biggest problem is when a consensus can not be reached. Evrik's moving of an article one hour or so after his last entry does not help. One hour is not enough time for people to respond, I'd expect 1-2 days at least. Rationalizing it as something along the line of "we'll never reach a consensus" is not the answer. This is akin to entering into a negotiation and then breaking it off because you think it too difficult and doing what you want anyway. I also found where he deleted talk from here and put in an article, [4]. You archive talk on the page it occurred, not on another article. And this wasn't an archive as it was only one section. Copying it would have been okay or maybe leaving a notice as to what occurred, but certainly not deleting it with no link of any kind. I find these this acts against wiki and Scouting spirit. I must strongly ask such behavior cease permanently. If a consensus can not be reached and it's at an impasse, contact myself or if you three gents don't want to use me, I'll try to find a 3rd party to settle it--within or outside the project. 4) If the choice of translation/transliteration is "Scout Association of XYZ" or "XYZ Scout Association" with no clear majority for one or the other, just pick one with redirect to the other. Such an instance really isn't that big a deal.

  • My Proposed Additions/Clarifications to our guidelines
    • ALWAYS leave redirects to the article with the text...this is already a rule but no one seems to be following it. If you have to leave more than one redirect because variations in the name, do it.
    • Rather than making a rash move, consult a project mediator (I'm looking for a volunteer now in addition to myself)
    • If an known official translation to English exists, use that one. If not, if the native spelling and English spelling have no version with say 60% majority on a Google search, use the English one (leaving a redirect of course), afterall, this is the English Wikipedia (not the Latvian or whatever).

This is how I see it. Let the fireworks begin. Rlevse 02:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • My quick response ...
  1. I haven't created the redirects because I was waiting for the discussion to end.
  2. I agree that the guidelines are unclear .. look at Doctors without Borders. The problem isn't as much Scouting Nederland as it is Magyar Cserkészszövetség. However, there is no logical reason why an organization whose name is in arabic, should be in french, on the english wiki.
  3. I have bent over backward to make this process open. There has been no consensus, but that because of the other editors having some problem with using the English language. I haven't cursed or otherwise acted in bad faith.
  4. I just checked Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page, and no where there does it say, "You archive talk on the page it occurred, not on another article." I would like you to please document where this is wikipedia policy. If you can't document it, please strike your comments and the comments about these acts [being] against wiki and Scouting spirit. The fact is, I archived the discusion on the page that was relevant and DID leave links.
evrik (talk) 03:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you did leave a link. I missed that. I apologize. The talk archive say point to an earlier version or create a subpage, which are both within the namespace of the page in question, not a separate article. So while your quote of me isn't verbatim in there, the basic idea of keeping within the namespace of the page in question is. The redirect policy has always been in place, there's no reason to keep not doing it. Agree an Arabic named article should be in English, but a redirect from the French name to the English one is okay. My guess you all think your've bent over backward. Rlevse 04:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • For a first step I made redirects from all avalaible "official translations" and included these translations in the articles. This is no problem for our discussion since redirects with one edit can be overwritten when moving an article.
  • Further one I think we need more input and more comments - as well from the project as from "outsiders". --jergen 11:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Project mediator offer

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Bduke has offered to be the Scouting WikiProject mediator and accept this as his first case on these conditions: 1. All parties must agree to his mediating. 2. All parties must not move any articles until the mediation is completed. 3. If consensus is not reached they must let User:Rlevse as the project coordinator decide whether to implement my final conclusions.

(3) means that Bduke will make a final recommendation if there is no consensus and User:Rlevse can accept it or reject it. Either way, the decision is final and all parties are bound by Scout's honor to follow it.

I am posting this on everyone's (Evrik, Jergen, Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr)) talk page so they will not miss the offer. Failure to respond with a 'accept' or 'not accept' on the Translations talk page will be taken as an 'accept'. This offer will last until 2400 UTC Dec 2, 2006. Keep in mind that we live all over the world and users need time to respond---specifically, Bduke lives in Australia. DO NOT make any moves until at least 24 hours have passed since his last posting on an issue. Rlevse 01:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Enter accept/not accept after your username:

"@Jergen: I assume this means you do not oppose the idea of having a mediator, but only object to this particular mediator, is that right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reinoutr (talk • contribs) 16:10, 2 December 2006

Yes, that's right. --jergen 19:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I indicate on my talk page, where jergen agreed to accept my offer, I am rather tied up today but will start things off tomorrow morning in about 22 hours from now. Remember I am the other side of the world. Three brief points:-

  • Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr). Are you still happy to go ahead?
  • Are you all happy about doing everything about the mediation on WP and not by e-mail or IRC? If this is the case, then others can clearly add their 2c to the debate. This could include Chris and Rlevse. Does that satisfy your concerns, evrik? Chris, is that what you were asking for?
Yes sir, if that's not out of bounds. I've been studying these movements for 25 years+ now, think my input could help. Chris 08:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Doing everything on WP is the only way I can accept - I don't work with IRC and only a little per e-mail. The result we may reach should be understood by everybody after reading the discussion.
I accept the input of everybody who is goadwilling and helps to find a solution. --jergen 18:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:English Subtitle. Are you willing to join the mediation and also tell us something about yourself. I am not going to accept the accusation that you are a sockpuppet unless more evidence on Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Evrik is presented now Evrik has denied this. I will assume good faith on everybody's part. Are you also willing to stop renaming articles during the period we are trying to resolve this matter? That would apply to everyone of course. --Bduke 00:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr), Chris and jergen, thanks for your responses. These are fine. I prefer to do it here too. OK, I am just waiting for Evrik to respond to the question above and I have heard nothing from English Subtitle, although I have asked them on their talk pages. The mediation will take place on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Translations mediation. Perhaps you might care to have a look at this and see whether you want to add anything or change anything in the "What's going on?" section. When I get a response from Evrik, I will ask the three of you to respond in the "Short responses from the editors involved on what the issue is and what the solution should be" section, so you might think about this. I would like English Subtitle to be involved, but I agree that he must agree not to move any articles until the mediation is concluded. If anyone wants to comment further on this page, other than a direct response to a question, I suggest you open a new section headed "Mediation" at the end, as this section is getting rather long. --Bduke 00:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion moved to new section below. --Bduke 06:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mediation

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As discussed above I have moved the discussion down here as that section was getting long. The mediation is taking place at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Translations mediation. Although I have not had a reply from User:English Subtitle, who has not made a WP contribution since 04:35, 20 January 2007, or evrik, who has not made a WP contribution since 13:12, 21 January 2007, I have decided to proceed. Please respond in the "Short responses from the editors involved on what the issue is and what the solution should be" section. jergen has already added something there. I hope we can reach some consensus without anyone going off the rails. However, if User:English Subtitle, or indeed anyone, does disrupt the mediation, I will take what action that seems appropriate. So, no moving pages until the mediation is completed. Please be civil. I would also ask all others to not add comments to the mediation page until after the three main people concerned have summarized their position and I have then made an initial response (probably a set of questions rather than a response). In other words I would prefer nothing else to happen right now other than the three main people concerned summarizing their position. I am not going to add anything myself until that has happened. --Bduke 06:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Evrik agreed to both rounds, the second one on 20 Jan.Rlevse 10:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Matrix

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As I said before, I was just trying to start the discussion about the non-English names. Perhaps we can create a matrix to make it easier for people to see what we're talking about? --evrik 10:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Europe

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The following are the countries listed at {{EuropeanScout}}.

Article name WOSM National Scout Organisation name Proposed alternates
Magyar Cserkészszövetség Hungarian Scout Association
Beslidhja Skaut Albania None Albanian Scout Association
Scouts of Greece
official translation[5] 		Scout Association of Greece
Türkiye İzcilik Federasyonu Scouting and Guiding Federation of Turkey Turkic Scouting Federation
Scouting Federation of Turkey
Pfadfinder und Pfadfinderinnen Österreichs Scouts and Guides of Austria Boy Scouts and Girl Guides of Austria
Austrian Boy Scouts and Girl Guides
both official used[6]
Austrian Scouts and Girl Guides
Guidisme et Scoutisme en Belgique Guiding and Scouting in Belgium The Guides and Scouts Movement of Belgium
official translation[7]
Organizatsia Na Bulgarskite Skauty Organization of Bulgarian Scouts
Savez izviđača Hrvatske The Scout Association of Croatia Scout Association of Croatia
official translation[8]
Junák None Association of Scouts and Guides of the Czech Republic
official translation[9]
Fællesrådet for Danmarks Drengespejdere The Danish Scout Council
official translation [10] 		Joint Council for Denmark's Boy Scouts
Eesti Skautide Ühing Estonian Scout Association
Suomen Partiolaiset The Guides and Scouts of Finland
official translation[11]
Scoutisme Français French Scouting Federation of the French Scout Movement
La Fédération du Scoutisme Français
Ring deutscher Pfadfinderverbände Scout Federation of Germany Federation of German Scouting Associations
German Scout Federation
official translation[12]
Bandalag íslenskra skáta Icelandic Boy and Girl Scout Association
official translation[13]
Hitachdut Hatsofim Ve Hatsofot Be Israel Israel Boy and Girl Scouts Federation
Federazione Italiana dello Scautismo Italian Scout Federation Italian Federation of the Scout Movement
Latvijas Skautu un Gaidu Centrālā Organizācija The Scout and Guide Central Organization of Latvia Latvian Scout and Guide central organisation
official translation[14]
Pfadfinder und Pfadfinderinnen Liechtensteins Scouts and Guides of Liechtenstein
official translation[15]
Lietuvos Skautija Lithuanian Scouting
Sojuz na Izvidnici na Makedonija The Scout Association of the former Yugoslave Republic of Macedonia Union of the Scouts of Macedonia
Association des Guides et Scouts de Monaco Association of Scouts and Guides of Monaco Association of Guides and Scouts of Monaco
Speidernes Fellesorganisasjon The Guides and Scouts of Norway Joint Organization of Scouts
Związek Harcerstwa Polskiego The Polish Scouting and Guiding Association
official translation[16]
Federação Escutista de Portugal Scout Federation of Portugal Scouting Federation of Portugal
Organizaţia Naţională Cercetaşii României The National Scout Organization of Romania National Organization of Romanian Scouts,
National Organization of the Scouts of Romania
Associazione Guide Esploratori Cattolici Sammarinesi The Catholic Guide and Scout Association of San Marino Association of Sanmarinese Catholic Guides and Scouts
Savez Izviđača Srbije i Crne Gore Yugoslav Scout Association Scout Organization of Serbia and Montenegro
change of name pending
Slovenský skauting Slovak Scouting Scouting Slovakia
official translation[17]
Zveza tabornikov Slovenije Scout Association of Slovenia Union of Scouts of Slovenia
Federación de Escultismo en España Scouting Federation in Spain Federation of the Scout Movement in Spain
Svenska Scoutrådet The Swedish Guide and Scout Council
official translation[18]
Scouting Nederland
official "translation"[19] 		Netherlands Scouting Scouting Netherlands
Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy Associazione Guide e Scouts Cattolici Italiani,
Association of Italian Catholic Guides and Scouts

The Americas

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The following are the countries listed at {{InteramericanScout}}.

Article name WOSM National Scout Organisation name Proposed alternates
Scouts de Argentina Scouts of Argentina
Asociación de Scouts de Bolivia The Scout Association of Bolivia Scout Association of Bolivia
União dos Escoteiros do Brasil Brazilian Scouts Association Scout Union of Brazil
Asociación de Guías y Scouts de Chile Guide and Scout Association of Chile
Asociación Scouts de Colombia Scout Association of Colombia
Asociación de Guías y Scouts de Costa Rica Association Guides and Scouts of Costa Rica Guide and Scout Association of Costa Rica
Asociación de Scouts Dominicanos Dominican Scout Association Association of Dominican Scouts
Asociación de Scouts del Ecuador Scout Association of Ecuador
Asociación de Scouts de El Salvador Scout Association of El Salvador
Asociación de Scouts de Guatemala Scout Association of Guatemala
Scouts d'Haïti Scouts of Haiti
Asociación de Scouts de Honduras Scout Association of Honduras
Asociación de Scouts de México, A.C. Scout Association of Mexico
Asociación de Scouts de Nicaragua Scout Association of Nicaragua
Asociación Nacional de Scouts de Panamá National Scout Association of Panama National Association of the Scouts of Panama
Asociación de Scouts del Paraguay Scouts Association of Paraguay Scout Association of Paraguay
Asociación de Scouts del Perú Scout Association of Peru
Boy Scouts van Suriname Boy Scouts of Suriname
Movimiento Scout del Uruguay Scout Association of Uruguay Scout Movement of Uruguay
Asociación de Scouts de Venezuela Scout Association of Venezuela
Scouting Aruba None
Scouting Antiano None Antillean Scouting

Asia Pacific Scouting

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The following are the countries listed at {{Asia-PacificScout}}.

Article name WOSM National Scout Organisation name Proposed alternates
Bhutan Scout Tshogpa None Bhutan Scouts Association
Persekutuan Pengakap Negara Brunei Darussalam Brunei Darussalam National Scout Association
Gerakan Pramuka Boy Scouts and Girl Guides Movement
Persekutuan Pengakap Malaysia The Scouts Association of Malaysia Malaysian Scouts Association
Mongoliyn Skautiyn Holboo The Scout Association of Mongolia
official translation [20]
Conseil du Scoutisme polynésien None Polynesian Scout Council
Council of the Polynesian Scout Movement

African Scouting

[edit]

The following are the countries listed at {{AfricaScout}}.

Article name WOSM National Scout Organisation name Proposed alternates
Associação de Escuteiros de Angola Scout Association of Angola
Scoutisme Béninois Benin Scouting Beninese Scout Movement
Fédération Burkinabé du Scoutisme Scout Federation of Burkina Faso Burkinabé Federation of the Scout Movement
Association des Scouts du Burundi Scout Association of Burundi
Les Scouts du Cameroun Boy Scouts of Cameroon
Associação dos Escuteiros de Cabo Verde Scout Association of Cape Verde
Fédération du Scoutisme Tchadien Scout Federation of Chad Federation of the Chadian Scout Movement
Wezombeli The National Scout Association of Comoros Association Nationale du Scoutisme Comorien
Fédération des Scouts de la République démocratique du Congo The Scout Federation of the Democratic Republic of The Congo Scout Federation of the Democratic Republic of The Congo
Fédération Ivoirienne du Scoutisme Scout Federation of Côte d'Ivoire Scout Federation of the Ivory Coast
Fédération Gabonaise du Scoutisme Scouting Federation of Gabon Gabonese Federation of the Scout Movement
Firaisan'ny Skotisma eto Madagasikara Scout Federation of Madagascar Fédération du Scoutisme Malagasy
Federation of the Malagasy Scout Movement
Liga dos Escuteiros de Moçambique League of Scouts of Mozambique League of the Scouts of Mozambique
Association des Scouts du Niger Scouts Association of Niger Scout Association of Niger
Association des Scouts du Rwanda Scout Association of Rwanda
Confédération Sénégalaise du Scoutisme Senegalese Scout Confederation Senegalese Confederation of the Scout Movement
Association Scoute du Togo Scout Association of Togo

Arab Region Scouting

[edit]

The following are the countries listed at {{ArabScout}}.

Article name WOSM National Scout Organisation name Proposed alternates
Scouts Musulmans Algériens Algerian Muslim Scouts
Fédération du Scoutisme Libanais Lebanese Scout Federation Federation of the Lebanese Scout Movement
Association des Scouts et Guides de Mauritanie The Scout and Guide Association of Mauritania Scout and Guide Association of Mauritania
Fédération Nationale du Scoutisme Marocain National Federation of Moroccan Scouting National Federation of the Moroccan Scout Movement
Les Scouts Tunisiens The Scouts of Tunisia Tunisian Scouts,
Tunisian Scouts Association
Both official translations [21], [22]

Note: Nearly all members of the WOSM-Arab region have official names in two or three languages, mostly in English (or French) and Arab. --jergen 07:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eurasian Scout Region

[edit]

The following are the countries listed at {{EurAsiaScout}}.

Article name WOSM National Scout Organisation name Proposed alternates
Hayastani Azgayin Scautakan Sharjum Kazmakerputiun Armenian National Scout Movement National Scout Movement of Armenia
official translation [23]
Association of Scouts of Azerbaijan The Association of Scouts of Azerbaijan Azerbaican Skaut Assosiasiyasi
Sakartvelos Skauturi Modzraobis Organizatsia Georgian Organization of the Scout Movement
official translation [24]
Organizaţia Naţională a Scouţilor din Moldova The National Scout Organization of Moldova National Organization of the Scouts of Moldova
Russian Association of Scouts/Navigators Russian Association of Scouts/Navigators
Ittihodi Scouthoi Tojikiston Scout Association of Tajikistan Associatsia Skautov Tadjikistana

WAGGGS members

[edit]

Lists only existing articles, for full list see List of World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts members:

Article name WAGGGS Organisation name Proposed alternates
Guides du Bénin Guides du Bénin Guides of Benin
The Association of Belarusian Guides The Association of Belarusian Guides Association of Belarusian Guides
Association des Scouts et Guides du Congo Association des Scouts et Guides du Congo Guide and Scout Association of the Congo
Pigespejdernes Fællesråd Danmark The Joint Committee of Girl Guides in Denmark
official translation [25] 		Joint Committee of Girl Guides in Denmark
Eesti Gaidide Maleva ja Eesti Gaidide Ühenduse Koostööliit Eesti Gaidide Liit Estonian Guides Association
Ring Deutscher Pfadfinderinnenverbände Ring Deutscher Pfadfinderinnenverbände German Guide Federation
official translation [26]
Soma Hellinidon Odigon
Soma Hellinikou Odigismou 		Soma Hellinikou Odigismou The Greek Guides Association
official translation [27]
The Greek Guiding Association
Magyar Cserkészlány Szövetség Magyar Cserkészlány Szövetség Association of Hungarian Girl Guides
Fédération Libanaise des Eclaireuses et des Guides Fédération Libanaise des Eclaireuses et des Guides Lebanese Federation of Girl Scouts and Girl Guides
Bureau de Liaison des Associations Guides du Luxembourg Bureau de Liaison des Associations Guides du Luxembourg Liaison Office of the Guide Associations of Luxembourg
Associação Guias de Portugal Associação Guias de Portugal Guide Association of Portugal
Asociaţia Ghidelor şi Ghizilor din România Asociaţia Ghidelor şi Ghizilor din România Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts of Romania
Russian Association of Girl Scouts Rossiskaya Assotsiatsia Devochek-Skautov
Združenje slovenskih katoliških skavtinj in skavtov The Slovene Catholic Girl Guides and Boy Scouts Association
Asotsiatsiya Haydov Ukrayiny Association of Ukrainian Guides

Notes

[edit]
İzcilik translates to "tracking; scouting" no Guiding in name. --Egel Reaction? 11:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Many languages or associations don't know the distinction between (Boy) Scout and (Girl) Guide and use the same word for both; in most cases WOSM translates this to Scouts and Guides or Scouting and Guiding.
  2. Scoutisme etc. is normally translated as Scouting but means in nearly all cases Scout movement. --jergen 13:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed article name changes

[edit]

Albania

[edit]
Article name WOSM National Scout Organisation name Proposed alternates
Beslidhja Skaut Albania * talk None Albanian Scout Association, Albanian Scouting Alliance, Albanian Scouting Brotherhood, Association of Albanian Scouts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:User_sq
--evrik (talk) 17:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is really hard to translate "Beslidhja". It literally means "faith-binding" and I think would best translated as "allegiance pledge". Therefore, you could use the 'Albanian Scout Association' as the main name for the article, but keep the original one also (redirect page maybe)… Feel free to ask for help, as this time I didn’t really understand what I was supposed to do.--Albanian since Stone Age 19:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well I can see someone has already helped. I'm also fluent in Albanian and I don't agree with the above translation. I don't know anything about the organization itself, and unless someone does it might not be a good idea to call them the Albanian Scouting Association. Roughly translated in context, it would be "Albanian Scouting Alliance" or "Albanian Scouting Brotherhood." Beslidhja here does literally mean pledge as was mentioned above, but that shouldn't be translated literally into English (for obvious reasons).UberCryxic 20:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If even fluent speakers of Albanian disagree on the translation we should not move the article - or even redirect it from Albanian Scout Association. There is also no official source for any translation. --jergen 09:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree. If there is no meaningful or official translation we should not move it. See also my alternative proposal for making sensible, logical redirects instead (#Alternative proposal). --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 15:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fluent in Albanian language.

  • As much as I see you don't have any problem with the name, can't you see that you have created a problem without existing.
  1. This is my first time reading about this "beslidhje" or what ever it is (structurally).
  2. I sad there is no problem about the name because there is the name in the badge: Besa scouts Albania, so why you don't use that name as a base?
  3. Literal terror 1.Besa or Beslidhja 2. Scout 3. Albania used as Beslidhja Skaut Albania. This is a real lingual terror 1 is in Albanian, 3 in English and second is in new language NWO.

Explain: Scout is not Skaut in Albanian but means zbulues/zbuluese or praroj/prarin.

According to elements (Beslidhja, skaut, Albania) its obvious that the name: Beslidhja Skaut Albania is not correct not in Albanian not in English.

If you don't use Besa Scouts Albania, the other names are just imaginations and nothing related with facts and are not accepted because this is encyclopedia and not blog space.

Just as a translation: Beslidhja Skaut Albania - basically can't be translated from Albanian into English because is not all in Albanian language, in Albanian dictionary there is no word "Skaut" or "scout".

Anyway my attitude is: Leave the name just as it is until you find the real name and the real names can't be changed, in other case what ever you do it is wrong reaction. (Puntori 11:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC))[reply]

According to who? Some guy at WOSM? Their info (from their website) has not proven very reliable so far. If you are gonna check, do it with the Albanians. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 13:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yup. Some guy at the WOSM. I sent an email as well, and am awaiting a written response. Since the Albanians have stated there is no direct translation, and since there is no 'official' translation, I think written confirmation from the WOSM is pretty good. --evrik (talk) 14:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is getting (too close to) original research in my book. If there is no translation, we should not translate. We are not translating some names here on Wikipedia, because there is no (official) translation. Here are (quite) a few examples: Confédération nationale du travail, Inspection Générale des Affaires Sociales, Ligue des droits de l'homme, Christliches Jugenddorfwerk Deutschlands, Zentralrat der Muslime in Deutschland, Asociación de Trabajadores Inmigrantes Marroquíes en España, Instituto de Actuarios Españoles, Associazione per il Disegno Industriale. There are literally thousands of articles like this. No available official tranlation, so not translated. Making up English names for organizations like this is original research. Wikipedia will be the only one using those names (and maybe the one guy at WOSM who came up with a translation). As stated above, I have no objections to using "neutral" names like Scouting in Albania, but inventing new names for these organizations is not what we should be doing here. To be honest, I also do not agree with you that there currently is consensus to translate these names. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 15:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--evrik (talk) 21:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Algeria

[edit]
The following discussion is an archived debate of the Algerian Muslim Scouts. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Move --evrik (talk) 20:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I propose we rename this article. This change is proposed in order to bring this foreign-language Scouting article title into compliance with the spirit of both WikiProject Scouting - Rules Standards, Article names and Wikipedia:Naming conventions. The discussion about this is currently taking place at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Scouting/Translations#Proposed_article_name_changes. --evrik (talk) 16:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article name WOSM National Scout Organisation name Proposed alternates
Scouts Musulmans Algériens * talk Algerian Muslim Scouts
Disagree: There is no source that this translation is in official use and that it refers to the SMA; the above references may refer to any of Algeria's Scouting organizations. There is Scouting outside WOSM. --jergen 21:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I was not aware that there are more scouting organizations in Algeria. If that is the case, this may indeed be an ambiguous name. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 23:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is from the article:

Algerian Muslim Scouts (SMA, Arabic: الكشافة الاسلامية الجزائرية, French: Scouts Musulmans Algériens) is the national Scouting association in Algeria.

It is clear in looking at the title that it is in French, and not the Arabic language (or English). There may be Scouting outside the WOSM, but the WOSM site is authoritative (IMHO), and we now have other links provided by User:Reinoutr. --evrik (talk) 20:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see, you are the only one seeing WOSM as authoritative - see the opinions above on the Albanian issue.
Is there any source besides WOSM who gives Algerian Muslim Scouts as translation of Scouts Musulmans Algériens? Both sources only mention the existence of an organisation under the English name, but we don't know if it's the same as Scouts Musulmans Algériens. --jergen 14:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had to laugh when you said, "As far as I can see, you are the only one seeing WOSM as authoritative." It's like me saying, "As far as I can see, you are the only one not seeing WOSM as authoritative." The article itself gives the name in three languages. I say we should be using the one in English. --evrik (talk) 14:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you had looked at history, you would know that the article started with the French title; the English translation was only given as an explanation. Somebody changed this without moving the article...
Concerning the authority of WOSM I'll quote two of the remarks on Beslidha Skaut Albania:
  • WOSM is not the body who decides on those names (Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr))
  • WOSM is definitely not the decisive organization in this issue. (Wim van Dorst)
And please don't try to avoid my question: According to which external source is Algerian Muslim Scouts the official translation of Scouts Musulmans Algériens? --jergen 20:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Avoid? No, let me quote the statement above, "... translation and is used by the NDI [30] and UNICEF [31]."

There is enough evidence here to move the name from French to English. --evrik (talk) 23:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but you didn't answer my question - none of the two given sources proves that Algerian Muslim Scouts is the official translation of Scouts Musulmans Algériens; the French name - of which the mentioned English title may be a translation - isn't mentioned. I'd like to have a source that gives both version - until now it is possible that the English translation refers to any other Algerian Scouting organization. --jergen 11:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Old Article name New Article name Result
Scouts Musulmans Algériens * talk Algerian Muslim Scouts Article moved talk

Comments after move:

  • Object: Evrik, why are you dicussing these moves if you are going to move regardless of whether or not there is consensus? In this case (Algeria) there was one person in support (you), one who was doubting (me) and one who was opposed (Jergen). Why on earth did you decide to move it anyway? Little use in discussing them then. I am gonna object to all moves, unless you will take these discussions more seriously. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would like to point out that I have taken the discussions very seriously, and for that reason did not make a change on Albania. There is a point where trying to reach consensus means that something is going to be stalled forever - paralysis by analysis. Yes, I did make the change. However, there were several good sources for the name chosen and the name chosen was in line with WP:UE and WikiProject Scouting/Rules Standards-Article names. --evrik (talk) 22:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ Evrik: Why did you start a discussion when you move the articles regardless of it? Pls revert this move in the next days. --jergen 05:14, 28 November 2006
    • @Jergen. If you promise not to oppose each move and to work together on these articles, I will agree to wait longer for the next article change. --evrik (talk) 22:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Evrik, you are turning things around now. We are not in a hurry to do anything. There is no deadline on Wikipedia. We should only do these moves if there is consensus, and in this case there is NO consensus. Also, WP:UE does NOT say anything about translating names of organizations, as I have explained above. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 23:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I never said anyone was in a hurry, but if I wasn't crediting both of you with WP:AGF and working in the Scout Spirit I might think that you were intentionally dragging out this process when it is clear that foreign-language article titles are not in keeping with WP:UE. I also think that claiming that every move needs consensus might also be a way of slowing down the process when these article titles should be in English. --evrik (talk) 16:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is no hurry for renaming any of the articles... Sorry, as long as no proof is given that Algerian Muslim Scouts is the official translation of Scouts Musulmans Algériens I cannot accept this move. You couldn't find any source outside WOSM stating that the English translation refers to the SMA but you moved the article despite this very poor sources and without reaching any consensus. --jergen 13:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • ... and this is another example of disagreeing just to disagree. What is wrong with using Enlish on the English wiki? --evrik (talk) 04:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Evrik: You cannot accuse us of something and say in the same sentence that you are not doing so because you are assuming good faith, that is ridiculous. Either you are accusing us of dragging this out or you are not, which is it? --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 22:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sure I can, just like I can say that using the term bollocks is a violation of WP:Civil without actually issuing a warning. --evrik (talk) 04:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • So in a construction like that, one can say anything without having to face the consequences? In that case, if I weren't being civil and assuming good faith, I'd say that you are an **** **** who is **** and a ****. (An no, I am not being seriously, just showing it is a ridiculous reasoning). Of course you are accusing us of dragging this out (and thus not assuming good faith, contrary to what you claim), otherwise you should not have written your statement about that at all. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 11:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Angola

[edit]
Article name WOSM National Scout Organisation name Proposed alternates
Associação de Escuteiros de Angola * talk Scout Association of Angola [32]
The Scout Association of Angola [33]
Angola Scout Association [34] 		Association of Angolan Scouts, Angolan Scout Association, Angolan Association of Scouts, pt:Associação de Escuteiros de Angola
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