Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Puerto Rico/Archives/2009/January

WikiGnoming

People, I started to setup a formal style guideline framework, so that a lot of the debates can be centralized.

WP:WikiProject Puerto Rico#Style guide and essays

Is still a work in progress and its a framework, so I suggest we discuss here rather than editing until its ready.

The idea is to have something like what WP:MILHISTMOS has, and that is the model I am using... Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 04:31, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I put the proposed header and are callign upon the community to RfC. That way we can discuss our own MOS guidelines (for example, the controversy around the flag), and have then be the rules. --Cerejota (talk) 01:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the naming conventions, we seem to have a mix up in the sports articles. For example all of the baseball teams are named in their original (and possibly proper) Spanish name like Leones de Ponce (baseball), but the basketball teams are named in English (i.e. Ponce Lions (basketball)) even though that name has never been used by the league or its team owners. We should bring consistency to these articles. -Caribbean~H.Q. 21:11, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Great idea Cerejota and I agree with Caribbean H.Q., that sports teams should be named in their original Spanish name. Tony the Marine (talk) 22:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I am placing it in the WP:PURMOS. Remember it currently doesn't weight of guideline, but we should work for it. The more complete it is the easier it is to convince the rest of the community to delegate.--Cerejota (talk) 07:45, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Requesting a consensus

Due to the fact that there isn't any code which establishes the exact "official" tone of blue in the Puerto Rican flag's triangle, I proposed a new introduction to the article Flag of Puerto Rico. I invite all the members of this project to view the proposed introduction and to either approve or disapprove the proposition. Please keep in mind that an approval will most likely bring to an end the continuous image war editing. See proposition: Proposed introduction. Please participate. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Que bonita bandera...

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Tally: Support = 10 (including nominator), Oppose = 0, Neutral = 0 (possibly 2), discussion shows strong community support after almost three weeks.

---

My fellow project members, some of you might already know this, but research done following a recent conflict in Flag of Puerto Rico, brought forth that our flag doesn't have official tones for its red and blue shades. Since I know that political POV-pushers will jump at this like mice to cheese, my proposal is to revert File:Flag of Puerto Rico.svg to the "in-between, happy-medium" colors that it once featured. We should use this version on neutral articles like Puerto Rico or Puerto Rico national basketball team. That way neither side can try to push their agendas, effectively eliminating the potential political wars. I post this here so we can analyze this and other proposals, in order to reach a consensus on the matter. Thanks for your time. - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:02, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

• I Support your idea because it seems as a reasonable suggestion to use an "in-between, happy-medium" version of flag on Puerto Rican related articles, thereby representing only our people and not any particular political faction. Tony the Marine (talk) 22:33, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
• Strong support - We should talk about any debates in the appropiate article, but it makes no sense to turn any article with the flag into a partisan battleground. Remember that for some reason I edit one of the most contentious article spaces, so I know how harmful to the project it is when people cannot compromise. This is a beautiful idea.--Cerejota (talk) 22:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
• I guess I Support.  :) Whatever you say oh great HQ leedr. (Honestly, I dont see that much of a difference, but whatever makes us happy...!!) Qb | ^{your 2 cents} 22:59, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support, although I believe that light blue is the historically correct color used when the reverse of the Cuban flag was adopted in 1895, the light blue used by independentistas and, notably, by past Senate President McClintock in the flag over his left shoulder when he presided over the Senate. Pr4ever (talk) 23:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
• I Support the comment that Tony the marine did; I think that the representation of the colors must portrait the people, our culture, our heritage and not any structure, party or government. It's my very personal opinion. I am with Tony and with Caribbean HQ. I endorse the proposal. Thanks for read my opinion ~~Io_Wiki2007~~ (talk) 03:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
• I propose we also put the rainbow flag on these articles..LOL! Seriously, I support. "Antonio Black Girl Licker Martin" (tell me here) 6:12, 20 January 2009 (UTC).

•  Comment: I live in Puerto Rico, The flag of Puerto Rico is bright red, white and blue, and I have never ever seen the dark flag. Our government has the current bright red, white and blue raised high and no mention of the dark one. It's a no brainer, the dark one goes.

PS. And for those of you who "researched", one quick search on Google got me a reliable source:[1] ; ) Feedback ^☎ 01:57, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, umm... Page 10/15. Feedback ^☎ 01:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

• Sorry mi hermano, but the book which you cite is not an official government document. There isn't a constitutional law which dictates an official tone or shade of blue to be used in the flags triangle and therefore it is not unusual that at various times the flag will be displayed with different variations of tones of blue. In 1995, the government of Puerto Rico issued a regulation in regard to the use of the Puerto Rican flag tittled: "Reglamento sobre el Uso en Puerto Rico de la Bandera del Estado Libre Asociado de Puerto Rico; Reglamento Núm. 5282." (Regulations in regard to the use in Puerto Rico of the flag of Commonwealth of Puerto Rico; Regulation No. 5282). In the regulation's "Artículo 2: Definiciones" and "Artículo 2: Descripción y simbolismo" (Article 2: Description and Article 2: Sescription and simbolism) the government specifies the colors to be used but, does not specifiy any official tones or shades of colors to be used.Tony the Marine (talk) 02:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Don't use the <ref> template, because talk pages don't have reflists. Feedback ^☎ 23:00, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

• Wow! pardon me! Now it has. Tony the Marine (talk) 23:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Reference

Canada solved this problem by doing a VERY extensive "corporate imaging" set of guidelines, and specifying everything, from how to name ministries to which font is used for government documents and propaganda, to which Pantone colors are used when reproducing the Canadian flag, etc, etc, etc. However, in the case of Puerto Rico, the issue should be simple: if the Puerto Rican flag is supposed to be a reversal in colors of the Cuban one, use the same blue the Cubans use for the canton, and that should be it. If you're interested in using the deep navy blue used in the United States flag, you're contradicting history. I don't care if you are a statehooder, an independentista, or pursue annexing the island to the Republic of José Cuervo. The flag is based on a historical fact, and that history should be respected, period. Demf (talk) 10:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

You are eprhaps unfamiliar with the political debate? You see, this falg was illegal for half of the 20th century, and is still a politically sticky point. It is not a debate for us to resolve in wikipedia, but for us to report on wikipedia. However, there is a practical need to generate a rough consensus that allows the placing of a Puerto Rican flag in the articles, and a common sense, or I should say no-nonsense, compromise is proposed. If we are goign to be obstuse enough to not see the need for stability of the technical matter of portraying the flag in an encyclopedia, and prefer to continue the the battles of real life here so be it. But its a really unproductive thing to do, in particular underWP:POINT, which is what some around here have engaged.--Cerejota (talk) 12:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The keyword here is "official". The book mentions that some flags were controversial because "the color of the triangle is sky blue rather than the dark blue that had been customary of the Puerto Rico flag." Which is truth to a certain degree, since the darker variety was used more prominently while the PPD was aligned more to the right. However, there is no government statement released that discusses the actual tones. - Caribbean~H.Q. 00:08, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support for "in-between, happy-medium" version of the Puerto Rican flag - As far as I know, the flag of Puerto Rico is the same colors of the Cuban flag but inverted. There's no real rule of what shade or tone the flag of Puerto Rico should be as some have pointed out above. As long a flag has a white star inside a blue triangle with 3 red and 2 white alternating stripes it will look to me like the flag of my country, regardless of anything else. Maybe a mention of the shades or tones should be added to the article Flag of Puerto Rico if that is important or relevant to know but other than that, there's no reason why this should be such a controversial issue... at least in my view.--Madgirl 15 (talk) 19:14, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment, I just wanted to state that the article "Flag of Puerto Rico" pointed out the shade and tone situation and thus created the awareness, for those who didn't know (myself included) of what is being discussed here. Tony the Marine (talk) 21:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support, Based on this picture I took from the waving flag in Guajataca, Quebradillas, PR, it seems like the "happy medium" version is closer to what is actually flown in the island. ~RayLast^«Talk!» 03:16, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

flag

Reverted version as per consensus. WP:PURMOS#USAGE modified.--Cerejota (talk) 07:43, 31 January 2009 (UTC)