Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/proposal for Ireland Article

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Untiled

This is a proposal I’m preparing. Editors are welcome to help me with this, however to prevent disruption and keep this focused I’ve provided guidelines which editors wishing to help must adhere to. The guidelines appear on each section. If an editor wish’s to open a new section, please copy and paste the guidelines onto the new section. Starting discussions which go over old ground and old arguments will be deleted. The purpose of this discussion shall be to develop reasonably agreed-upon procedures for resolving this issue, without further disputes or rancor as to the fairness of the procedures used. Editors are asked to approach this discussion with an open mind and without emphasis on prior discussions that failed to reach agreement.

Comments for

Editors must not use sweeping claims or generalisations, and all claims must be supported by referenced sources. Please address one point at a time.

Per WP:COMMONNAME & Wikipedia:Naming conventions ^[1] This reflects current official usage by the UN

Per WP:COMMONNAME & Wikipedia:Naming conventions The UK Government^[2].

Per WP:COMMONNAME & Wikipedia:Naming conventions. The Government of the nation refers to itself as "Ireland", and not the "R/r epublic of Ireland".^[3]

Per WP:COMMONNAME & Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Today, the European Union note that the names of the Member States of the European Union must always be written and abbreviated according to the Interinstitutional Style Guide rules and that neither “Republic of Ireland” nor “Irish Republic” should be used when referring to the Irish State. ^[4]^[5]

Comments against

Editors must not use sweeping claims or generalisations, and all claims must be supported by referenced sources. Please address one point at a time.

GoodDay, no one has suggested deleting the Republic of Ireland article. This proposal is not about the RoI Article it's about the Ireland article.

I'll support this proposal only if the Island, Disambiguation & Country articles are not merged into it or deleted. Do I have an asurance on that? GoodDay (talk) 20:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is a proposal, not a bartering house. This proposal involves merging Ireland & Republic of Ireland, under the title Ireland. If you have a suggestion, make one in a new section titles “Suggestions” which I'll consider or propose a solution yourself with a modified version of this. See my comments to Fmph below for an expanded explaination. --Domer48_'fenian' 07:55, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

MickMacNee, you suggested an “Ireland which would cover all conceivable Ireland/Irish topics, such as History, Geography, Politics, Culture etc etc etc. This would include the content from the RoI Article, that's a merger, but this is not your proposal. This is a compilation of a number of proposals by a number of Editors.
BritishWatcher. Nothing to discuss.
Rockpocket. All that can be said is provide a Diff for the discussion were there was a consensus that "Ireland is ambiguous." No one can seem to find it. Provide sources to support this opinion per WP:V. Without Diff's there is nothing to discuss.

--Domer48_'fenian' 19:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments neither for, nor against

Editors must not use sweeping claims or generalisations, and all claims must be supported by referenced sources. Please address one point at a time.

Fmph have a look at the China Article. Notice how it covers subjects in general way in the article, but with each section linking to a more detailed article. That's the idea. Some sections would deal with the whole island for example such as History, Geography, Politics, Culture etc. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:51, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Editors must not use sweeping claims or generalisations, and all claims must be supported by referenced sources. Please address one point at a time.

Domer, you said "All that can be said is provide a Diff for the discussion were there was a consensus that 'Ireland is ambiguous.'" Which Ireland/Ireland? Bastun^nutsaB 08:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Provide a Diff for the discussion were consensus was reached that "Ireland" is ambiguous. Both MASEM & myself can't find it. --Domer48_'fenian' 08:15, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What created the ambiguity was it the wrong naming of Ireland as ROI? BigDunc^Talk 11:15, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm attempting to locate the discussion to determine that see comment above. --Domer48_'fenian' 11:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dunc it was the government of southern Ireland declearing their country title to be that of the island that has made Ireland ambiguous. They are to blame and they probably added that the official description is "Republic of Ireland", knowing people would need something else to call them in certain cases to avoid confusion. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:15, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ a longstanding policy, provides that:
Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
This is justified by the following principle: The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.
Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.
^ A Country by any other Name, Mary Daly, Journal of British Studies, Jan 2007 volume 46 number 1
^ Bunreacht Na hÉireann
^ European Union Interinstitutional Style Guide.
^ Constitutional Law of 15 EU Member States (edition 6), L. Prakke, C. A. J. M. Kortmann, Hans van den Brandhof, J. C. E. van den Brandhof, Kluwer, 2004, ISBN 9013012558, Pg.430

[1] standing policy, provides that:
Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
This is justified by the following principle: The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.
Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.

[2] A Country by any other Name, Mary Daly, Journal of British Studies, Jan 2007 volume 46 number 1

[3] Bunreacht Na hÉireann

[4] European Union Interinstitutional Style Guide.

[5] Constitutional Law of 15 EU Member States (edition 6), L. Prakke, C. A. J. M. Kortmann, Hans van den Brandhof, J. C. E. van den Brandhof, Kluwer, 2004, ISBN 9013012558, Pg.430

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