Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Women's football task force/Archives/2018/April
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Help reviewing PRODed Liga MX Femenil player articles
An editor has gone on a tear attempting to delete what appears to be the majority of the Liga MX Femenil player articles without apparently checking for reliable sources for all of them. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carolina Jaramillo for a few examples. As there are dozens proposed or nominated for deletion, can you lend a hand reviewing them and doing a quick Google search to add refs where applicable? This league received a ton of news coverage with many record-setting attendances (worldwide for women's football).
Granted some player articles may be considered WP:TOOSOON - but I've discovered 4 7 10+ so far that meet WP:GNG and added a few refs to the articles. The full list is here: [[1]] for your review.
If you have any questions about what is needed in order to remove the proposed deletion tag, let me know. Please be sure to tag each article's talk page with {{WP Women's sport|footy=yes}} if it isn't already. This will help ensure more editors who work productively on articles related to women's footballers and women in general see the article and deletion discussion if it comes to that.
Pinging a few editors active in this area: Ronalditos58815738, Wiema, Joeykai, MonFrontieres, Smallchief - sorry if I missed anyone. Anyone is welcome to assist.
Thank you.Hmlarson (talk) 09:14, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Also pinging Rpadill2. Hmlarson (talk) 21:13, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- I discovered that Tania Morales had been proposed for deletion -- and fixed the article. I'll look at others. Smallchief (talk) 10:07, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks also to Joeykai for their review + work identifying some who have played for the national team. Quite a few speedy keeps. Hmlarson (talk) 10:37, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- A national first division is a national first division, being women's or men's, being professional or not. Its players must be recognised because they are top in their country and are relevant for readers from there. At least, should be recognised those players who also won the league or reached some international status with their country. Moreover, Liga MX Femenil was created to professionalise the previous one. While the previous league had amateur teams, e.g. Real Celeste and Dragonas; the current one has teams based on the men's, e.g. América and Guadalajara, which are professional clubs.--MonFrontieres (talk) 22:42, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Playing in a top division is not an appropriate approach to player notability, otherwise we'd be allowing articles from players who have played in the Faroe Islands Premier League or the Campionato Sammarinese di Calcio (which we aren't). Footballers are notable by virtue of it being a spectator sport, so notability has to be an approximation of how many spectators actually watch (players in a league with no-one watching wouldn't be notable, regardless of its level). Professional status is one of the proxy indicators of this, hence why it is used as the basis of the notability guideline. Number 57 23:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Given that the Liga MX Femenil had an average attendance per match of 2,743, which is more than most professional leagues in Europe -- and that the two championship matches had an attendance of 61,000 total, your criteria for notability based on attendance would seem to be fully met.Smallchief (talk) 00:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
- Impressive figures, but the last point raises a question about a few attendances skewing the average; for instance, the average attendance in Scottish League Two (definitely not a fully-professional league) in 2012/13 was 5,572, but this was purely because Rangers' presence massively inflated the average (the previous year was under 500). This raises the point that there probably needs to be a bit more nuance to just an overall league average – perhaps a median or a requirement that all clubs are above a certain threshold rather than an average that can be easily skewed by a single club. It would be interesting to see the average for the Liga MX Femenil on a club-by-club basis to see the differences. Also, just to clarify, 2,743 is not more than most professional leagues in Europe – it would be ranked 36th of the 59 that we have confirmation of professionalism). Number 57 09:54, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
- 2.743 is the average for regular season games. If you count the six playoff games of the Liga Mexicana Feminil, the average attendance per game is 3,491. In total for 118 games, the attendance was 412,000. That's pretty impressive, however, you slice and dice it. Smallchief (talk) 22:47, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Impressive figures, but the last point raises a question about a few attendances skewing the average; for instance, the average attendance in Scottish League Two (definitely not a fully-professional league) in 2012/13 was 5,572, but this was purely because Rangers' presence massively inflated the average (the previous year was under 500). This raises the point that there probably needs to be a bit more nuance to just an overall league average – perhaps a median or a requirement that all clubs are above a certain threshold rather than an average that can be easily skewed by a single club. It would be interesting to see the average for the Liga MX Femenil on a club-by-club basis to see the differences. Also, just to clarify, 2,743 is not more than most professional leagues in Europe – it would be ranked 36th of the 59 that we have confirmation of professionalism). Number 57 09:54, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
- Given that the Liga MX Femenil had an average attendance per match of 2,743, which is more than most professional leagues in Europe -- and that the two championship matches had an attendance of 61,000 total, your criteria for notability based on attendance would seem to be fully met.Smallchief (talk) 00:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah I'm in agreement with Number 57, they have to be in a professional league otherwise you can create hundreds of articles for all the players in the New Zealand Football Championship even though it isn't pro, its the top league here. I realise it is harder in the women's game with less professional leagues but we open up a can of worms changing it. NZFC(talk) 23:12, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- This is convenient, repeated + boring trolling at best. Zzzzz...
There are lots more productive things to do - like improve the 20+ articles saved from the aggressive and totally unnecessary mass deletion of 67 articles by one editor and 5 by another account with less than one year history yet familiarity with sockpuppet investigations (hmmm...). Thanks Google News + Ronalditos58815738, Smallchief, Joeykai, and Rpadill2. Hmlarson (talk) 02:16, 9 January 2018 (UTC)- Replying to a suggestion with points about why notability guidelines are as they are is not trolling. Please remember that Wikipedia debate is supposed to be WP:CIVIL. Number 57 08:42, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Number57 What contributions to articles about women's football have you made? Hmlarson (talk) 19:17, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- I've created several articles on female footballers and got a couple (Aya Sameshima and Cecilia Santiago) featured on the main page under the DYK section (I also took the pic of Santiago when attending the 2011 Women's World Cup). But why am I even being asked this question? My guess you're trying to make it look like I have no interest in commenting here, so sorry to disappoint you. And my username has a space in. Number 57 19:22, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- A question is a question. Thanks for answering. What do you think of the record-breaking attendance, major sponsorship and television deals for Liga MX Femenil? The impressive news coverage? Hmlarson (talk) 19:27, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's great news for the women's game in Mexico. What do you think about it? Number 57 19:32, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, agree... with larger implications worldwide. Heading to France next year? Hmlarson (talk) 19:49, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- I will probably try and get to some of the games in Valenciennes, Reims or Paris depending on Eurostar prices. Fingers crossed England or one of the other home nations will be playing there rather than down in Montpellier or Nice. The Parc des Prices has one of the best atmospheres I've ever experienced (so loud it was like standing under a speaker in a nightclub), so I'd recommend trying to watch a game there if you're planning on going. Number 57 19:55, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Nice. Hope you'll grab some photos, if possible. We could always use more. Hoping to make it - but will have to see schedule. Hmlarson (talk) 20:16, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- I will probably try and get to some of the games in Valenciennes, Reims or Paris depending on Eurostar prices. Fingers crossed England or one of the other home nations will be playing there rather than down in Montpellier or Nice. The Parc des Prices has one of the best atmospheres I've ever experienced (so loud it was like standing under a speaker in a nightclub), so I'd recommend trying to watch a game there if you're planning on going. Number 57 19:55, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, agree... with larger implications worldwide. Heading to France next year? Hmlarson (talk) 19:49, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- I've created several articles on female footballers and got a couple (Aya Sameshima and Cecilia Santiago) featured on the main page under the DYK section (I also took the pic of Santiago when attending the 2011 Women's World Cup). But why am I even being asked this question? My guess you're trying to make it look like I have no interest in commenting here, so sorry to disappoint you. And my username has a space in. Number 57 19:22, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Number57 What contributions to articles about women's football have you made? Hmlarson (talk) 19:17, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Replying to a suggestion with points about why notability guidelines are as they are is not trolling. Please remember that Wikipedia debate is supposed to be WP:CIVIL. Number 57 08:42, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- MonFrontieres - There is a lot of press regarding this league and many of its players. Amazing for the first year - looking forward to more + how it influences other leagues worldwide. Hmlarson (talk) 02:22, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Playing in a top division is not an appropriate approach to player notability, otherwise we'd be allowing articles from players who have played in the Faroe Islands Premier League or the Campionato Sammarinese di Calcio (which we aren't). Footballers are notable by virtue of it being a spectator sport, so notability has to be an approximation of how many spectators actually watch (players in a league with no-one watching wouldn't be notable, regardless of its level). Professional status is one of the proxy indicators of this, hence why it is used as the basis of the notability guideline. Number 57 23:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
If anyone has time, there are more references for this article via a quick and easy Google News search in addition to the secondary sources already included in the article. The AFD could use more eyes and input. Thanks. Hmlarson (talk) 00:38, 20 January 2018 (UTC)