Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography

Renaming Charles Rodman Campbell Article

I started a discussion on the talk page for the article Charles Rodman Campbell, regarding a potential name change; I decided to post here to get more opinions.

I'm currently working on addressing a severe lack of sources and prevalence of factual errors, rearranging the article, and adding additional information, and I figured it might be helpful to first hear opinions on a potential renaming of the article after the crime victims rather than the perpetrator, before I get too far with making more rearrangements. Renaming the article would require a drastic rearrangement of almost all the information currently present.

Long story short, I proposed changing the name of the article to Clearview triple murders, or something similar; due to there having been three victims (Renae Wicklund, Shannah Wicklund, and Barbara Hendrickson), I'd be hesitant to name it after any of the victims or place any of their surnames in the title, but I can also see if that title naming it after the city might seem vague, or if it could be argued that Campbell was a sufficiently historically noteworthy figure to make the article's current title appropriate. (I also want to be clear that I don't really want to have a discussion here; I'd rather the discussion be on the article's talk page linked above, where I have gone into more and better detail about my thoughts.) Afddiary (talk) 12:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Robert Roberson case#Requested move 26 October 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Robert Roberson case#Requested move 26 October 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Raladic (talk) 17:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Lizzy Seeberg

I'm not sure the Death of Lizzy Seeberg article meets WP:NPOV; I re-worded some of the article but I would like other editors to take a look Joeykai (talk) 06:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@Joeykai: I think your rewording is an improvement. WP:BLPCRIME applies to the article. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 18:49, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Iskandar of Johor

Iskandar of Johor has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 16:02, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for R v R

R v R has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 16:19, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Featured article review

I have nominated Toa Payoh ritual murders for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Are Murder/Killing of articles supposed to use infobox person or the civilian attack infobox?

I've seen both. With mass attack type crimes it obviously makes no sense using the person infobox but when there's only one victim it makes enough sense. And calling one person's murder a "civilian attack" seems weird. That hypothetical style guide we were working on should probably address this. There's also Infobox event, which is sometimes used, which in most ways is worse for crime articles in that it isn't very well adapted to it, but is better for crime articles in the singular way of having a sentence parameter, which means we can only add the sentence parameter to like 1% of articles that are applicable to them. This is stupid. PARAKANYAA (talk) 08:27, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

And also, some articles contain multiple infoboxes, typically with crime they will have one event one and one for the perp. I tried this my first few edits and was quickly taught not to do it, but was never certain if it was against the rules since I see it in many pages. Multiple infoboxes turns into an eyesore and isn't really fulfilling of the infobox purpose, so now I am against it, but thoughts? PARAKANYAA (talk) 08:36, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I personally think that using the civilian attack infobox on the article of the murder of a singlular person makes sense, since they are a civilian who was attacked, therefore it is an attack on a civilian thus being a "civilian attack". Articles on individual murders aren't solely written about the victim either, they write of the background events, perpetrator and legacy of the murder. So, using the person infobox wouldn't make sense since the article isn't actually centred around the person, it's centred around their murder. For example, Murder of George Floyd uses infobox civilian attack since it's about the murder, whilst George Floyd uses infobox person since it's about the victim.

I'd also like to mention that there are instances where Infobox event should be used in crime articles, for example: Kenosha unrest shooting uses Infobox event, as the killings were classed as self-defense and not murder, so Kyle Rittenhouse did not attack those who died, nor did he murder them, he simply killed them. Killing and murder are different since "killing" is merely the act of killing, whilst murder is unlawful killing. The same is used for Killing of Trayvon Martin since Trayvon Martin, as decided in court, was not "murdered", he was "killed" as the ordeal was classified as self-defense.

This how I feel it should be:

• Murder of a person(s) = Infobox civilian attack, for example: Murder of James Bulger
• Victim of a murder = Infobox person, for example: George Floyd
• Lawful killing of a person = Infobox event, for example: Kenosha unrest shooting

Atamanashi (talk) 12:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, I may be looking too deeply definitions and terminology, but I'd like to ask whether Infobox civilian attack should be used on articles regarding the murders of police officers or military personnel, as police and military by definition are not civilians. So the murder of one of these cannot actually be a "civilian attack". For example, 2009 shootings of Oakland police officers uses Infobox civilian attack despite the fact none of the victims were civilians. I'm unsure if every article about the murder of a police officer or military personnel should use Infobox event or if it would even be a good idea, I just think it would just make sense logically. Atamanashi (talk) 13:00, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't really think the distinction between civilian and non civilian for the purpose of the infobox is that important except for excluding most wartime actions, so if it's a "mass attack" type crime I would say that it should use that template and not event as it is the closest to its purpose. So I would say the police ones should use civilian attack as they aren't wartime actions. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree, like I said I was looking into it too deeply. The actual purpose of the infobox coincides better with the articles, even if no civilian were attacked, the name wouldn't dictate it so specifically. Atamanashi (talk) 00:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think lawful/unlawfulness should impact it, as there isn't really any parameter-type difference. An attack is not unlawful per se, it is merely aggressive, there can be lawful attacks, such as in war. Will think more on the rest. PARAKANYAA (talk) 16:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I understand an attack isn't always inherently inlawful, however, the crime articles centred around a "killing" are usually always self-defense, so the defender did not attack anyone, they defended themself. So, in my opinion, these articles should use the event infobox as opposed to the civilian attack one since it was not an attack, even if the parameters are similar.

BTW, my question about article about murders of police/military, I'd just like to clarify, that was a hypothetical question rather than a genuine proposal. Atamanashi (talk) 00:32, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

An attack does not have to be unlawful though, an attack can be in self defense. And yes the hypotheticals are important here to figure out what the purpose of everything is. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

The reason I disagree with this is that the purpose of the infobox was originally, AFAIK, for terror attacks and mass shootings, and then I think for labeling and overlap reasons those got combined. I do not think that a crime or non-crime attack that targets several people (or is attempting to) has the same considerations as the killing of one person, other than generalist crime parameters (which event also has), so you tend to get some very off labeling. And yes, the George Floyd case is one thing, but that one was so astronomically high profile that we have three articles, one for the crime one for the victim one for the perpetrator, instead of just choosing one (I still don't get why we have an article for Chauvin, compared to other BLP1E cases, but oh well). From what I've seen it's pretty random whether an article uses the person one or attack/event. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Pablo Escobar, The Drug Lord#Requested move 1 November 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Pablo Escobar, The Drug Lord#Requested move 1 November 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Alpha3031 (t • c) 01:00, 25 November 2024 (UTC)