Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Colombia/COTM

CotM template

According to Wikipedia:Collaborations, you have an active Collaboration of the Month. If so, you might be interested in the new template {{CotM}}. cheers, Rd232 ^talk 22:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted names from list

An IP editor Special:Contributions/69.143.187.69 deleted some names from the list on 25 October 2012 commenting "Listin g people in charge of presidency because of president's illness is akin to listing Dick Cheney as president of the US when George Bush was under full anesthesia. Those in charge have been deleted". I did not make any reversions commented on the article page because I wanted feedback from the project team. I read the project page and there appeared to be no consensus on whom to include. Could this issue be further discussed pleased and a general consensus made.EagerToddler39 (talk) 01:33, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi EagerToddler, I'm not sure how familiar you are with Colombian history and politics, I have had to grapple with this issue a LOT and for a LONG time, unfortunately there are not that many Colombian knowledgeable editors to take on this issue properly and settle it once and for all. So here is a background on the issue, in Colombia the Head of State has not always held the title of President, and many who have have also held other titles in conjunction like "Supreme Head of the Provisional Government" or "President-Dictator" "Interim President" "Vice President in Charge of the Executive" making the work of figuring out who is a President and who is not more complicated. Also because of the tumultuous history of the country, there have been many ways an individual has ascended to gain control of the Executive as; aside from the many coups, successions after the titular's death, resignations and the like, the constitution specifies that the Executive power has to be relayed on to someone in the event of the temporary titular's absence, so for example when Ernesto Samper Pizano left to go to Canada for medical tests his Vice President Carlos Lemos Simmonds was named Interim President of Colombia for like a week or a few days, he now receives a Presidential Pension on top of the Vice Presidential pension because of that weird loophole, many (ok not that many but more than 3 for sure) have managed to be named Interim President to get that pension. The problem really deciding who are President de facto, de jure, and ad hoc, and when it's de jure what constitutes "jure" for some have been popularly Elected, some have been appointed by Congress, some have taken it by force, all legitimate, legal ways to be President. What I find the most difficult obstacle is, Historians. Colombian Historians have never bother for chronologically enumerating positions of power, "the 35th President" "the 9th Minister of ..." "the 17th Governor of " "the 104th Congress". History has just been taught in a continuous line of history, who was what when why how. So when after a Vice President assumed power interimly, or a General took power by coup, Colombian historians have not bother to break the chronological succession line of power when a conflict of power ensued, thus unlike France, who doesnt consider Philippe Pétain the 15th President of France even though he was in control of the Executive for 4 years but skip him and move on to Vincent Auriol who got to power with 7 years between himself and his predecessor Albert Lebrun, or Alain Poher to be the 19th President of France even though he twice held control of the Executive, Colombian chief executive history just keeps going on, without stopping to make distinctions, and what's worst, official biographies on school textbooks, and Presidential commissions and honours have legitimize the rule of many of the men who inundate that murky pool of Presidents of Colombia. this sad and ambiguous reality does give us (Wikipedia) the authority to make sense of it all without going against the established current and still finding legitimate reasons to agree in an Official List of President of Colombia once and for all. mijotoba (talk) 02:59, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have a general understanding of how the Executive system has functioned, not only in Colombia, but in other areas of Latin America which have suffered similar political turmoil. For countries such as the United States, where the succession is linear and completely traceable and where history verifies the Presidents and their Presidential terms, creating such a list poses very little difficulty. In the case of Colombia it is quite iffy. It is advisable to stick with the norms of the country and include only those who have been officially elected/usurped/appointed etc Executive power. But, alas, you've indicated that neither the oral nor recorded history of Colombia is clear. Therefore I suggest that readers who have a decided in the interest air their views and a general consensus be reached on deciding on the inclusion and exclusion criteria. I'm not sure how much viewer-ship this project receives but this type of decision needs consensus from a wide cross section of wikipedians. Why not make a proposal on this project, unambiguously worded, and then invite editors to vote their support or against the proposal. Personally I don't think leaders who functioned in the capacity of President for only a short period while the official president was out (say - due to illness) should qualify for inclusion in the main list. I would, however, support a separate list or section discussing persons who have temporarily held the office of Presidency for one reason or the other. But I'll go with the general consensus since I am neither an expert on Colombia nor on wikipedia's inclusion policies. Any assistance required I'll be glad to provide where possible.EagerToddler39 (talk) 04:01, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]