Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chicago/Categories/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Chicago. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Coordinating collaborative effort

Since this article is in such a state of flux I think we should give way to each other for round of edits. Even though the use of edit conflicts will be avoided by having collaborative effort guidelines like "use section edits", sometimes a series of section edits are required to follow through on an entire article change. So, I'm suggesting two collaborative guidelines:

1. Request edit rounds during which time an editor has exclusive editing time.

2. Always use section edits.

3. Include collaborative edit guidelines within the talk page info box.

Please help with critical comments and other suggestions. Pknkly (talk) 17:17, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

4. Use the {{inuse}} template as needed. Pknkly (talk) 05:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Understanding of CHIBOTCATS

Is the section on CHIBOTCATS accurate? ChIBOTCATS currently has within it categories related to templates and images (e.g., * :Category:Chicago Bears championship templates and * :Category:Argonne National Laboratory images ). So, either the understanding related to the contents of CHIBOTCATS is wrong and other template and image categories need to be added to CHIBOTCATS or the understanding is correct and CHIBOTCATS needs to be purged of template and image categories, as well as other categories, that don't comply with the description. Pknkly (talk) 11:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

This is something you guys should decide as a project. Some projects do not tag templates and images, my instructions from CHI are to tag them. –xeno^talk 12:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

So, CHIBOTCATS will take any category placed with in and the bot will tag it in talk page with the {{WikiProject Chicago}}, handle the Class parameter, and look for a category that is also within CHIBOTCATS being within the main page of the category. If this is correct the instructions to editors are very simple (1) create a category, (2) assign to the category main page an appropriate category from CHIBOTCATS, and place the new category into CHIBOTCATS using the format shown for other categories. The bot will handle the rest. Pknkly (talk) 19:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, just add any relevant categories to CHIBOTCATS and the bot will pick up the new category and pages within it on its next run. If you'd prefer me not to tag templates and files, I can easily filter them out. –xeno^talk 20:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Tony and others, I think we should continue to place all CHI categories within CHIBOTCATS, not just those that are used for encyclopedic articles. That way the instructions to users would be simpler and the bot would check for valid creation and use of the categories. What would you like to see? Pknkly (talk) 20:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes the bot should tag outside of article space.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Very good. I'll rewrite procedures to include the use of CHIBOTCATS for all categories. That will take some time and will be a long term project by which all the categories would be added For now, I'll just add a dozen categories from each namespace page just to get feel and look of how it would be when all the categories are in CHIBOTCATS. Pknkly (talk) 22:01, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Since all CHI categories are going to be within CHIBOTCATS and all categories are already members of Category:Category-Class Chicago articles, do we need to manually update CHIBOTCATS or can the bot get all the members of CHIBOTCATS from the category list in Category:Category-Class Chicago articles? Pknkly (talk) 22:50, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

It could, but this method has less control and greater chance for error (someone wrongly categorizes something as a Cat-class CHI article and then all the articles in it will get visited by the bot). It also makes it harder to look in the past for where/how a bot got wrong instructions. FYI see below the articles in Category-Class chi articles that don't exist at CHIBOTCATS. –xeno^talk 22:58, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Categories tagged by CHI not in CHIBOTCATS (except matching "Wikiproject" or "...Chicago articles"

You'll notice also there's some cats in there that are too wide for mass-inclusion, Smashing Pumpkins ones, for example. –xeno^talk 23:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the list - will need time to review and resond to it. Until then (could be a very long time) we'll keep manual process in place for updating CHIBOTCATS (how unfortunate). Pknkly (talk) 23:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

If the category were groomed of stuff like Category:Good Times characters, we could use it, and I would just dump the category to CHIBOTCATS each time I did a run for tracking purposes. But still, there's more fine-grain control using a list rather than a cat. –xeno^talk 23:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

FYI - Looked at Category:Good Times characters - looks to me like it is in scope. Moved it into CHIBOTCATS.Pknkly (talk) 00:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The examples you gave may simply be that they are just down right out of scope for wp:CHI. I'm more concerned with Category:WikiProject Chicago articles and the other tracking/project categories. If they were included in CHIBOTCATS would the bot choke on doing its thing for pages that have already been included and processed by the bot since they are within other categories? To me it looks like "out of scope" is not the big stumbling block for simply using Category:Category-Class Chicago articles as the members within CHIBOTCATS. Its the tracking/project categories. Pknkly (talk) 23:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The bot wouldn't be bothered by the tracking/project categories. I could just instruct the bot to ignore any categories containing "WikiProject", "Chicago articles".

You are still left with a bunch of categories that I don't think should be mass-tagged by CHI. Just a few examples: Category:Amtrak, Category:Motorola, Category:The Smashing Pumpkins, categories whose main subjects are part of CHI but not necessarily the entire category. So some method of fine grained control is still necessary. Either take these and similar out of WP CHI or maintain an exclusion list. –xeno^talk 03:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like my worry was needless, the bot will take care of them properly. So, I will start to move tracking and project categories into CHIBOTCATS. The others I'm may be out of scope and will treat them as such. 03:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The list will be audited and the correct actions (either taken out of scope or placed within CHIBOTCATS) will be taken. The progress toward completing the list can be tracked at Wikipedia:WikiProject Chicago/Categories/To Do/WrkSpc01.

Cease PSCs designation

Should the Project Scope Categories designation process (the one by which Category:Category-Class Chicago articles is generated), cease and be deleted since it attempts to duplicate the CHIBOTCATS records. The CHIBOTCATS records must be kept up since it is being used by bots. Pknkly (talk) 07:32, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I noticed the Illinois project used the PSCs process. Anyone know if they are still using it or if other projects use the process? Pknkly (talk) 07:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

No feedback from anyone about the Illinois project. Pknkly (talk) 23:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Still don't know if Category:Category-Class Chicago articles is or should be equal to CHIBOTCATS. Pknkly (talk) 23:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Category:Category-Class Chicago articles has within it all categories that were tagged with the WikiProject Chicago Banner within the talk pages. CHIBOTCATS is to contain only WikiProject Chicago categories that are used as category declarations for Main pages. Initial assumptions were all wrong. Pknkly (talk) 01:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Based on new information, the above is not correct. CHIBOTCATS was to of had all the Chicago Project categories. It is not limited to only categories that were to be used within the Main namespace. The confirmation (see #Understanding of CHIBOTCATS ) for more discussions related to this topic. Will archive this, along with #Understanding of CHIBOTCATS within a week to give others a chance to review the results. Pknkly (talk) 21:50, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Back to the original question - seems like all the members of Category:Category-Class Chicago articles will now be within CHIBOTCATS. So, do we need to manually update CHIBOTCATS or can the bot get all the members of CHIBOTCATS from the category list in Category:Category-Class Chicago articles? Pknkly (talk) 22:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Posing the question at #Understanding of CHIBOTCATS . Pknkly (talk) 22:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Reestablish Category:Redirect-Class Chicago articles

(Message to User talk:Happy-melon) I'm looking to reestablish :Category:Redirect-Class Chicago articles . The history shows you deleted this on 2009-04-09T14:59:13 with a message that mentioned "populated by a WPBannerMeta banner that no longer uses this quality assessment". Pknkly (talk) 21:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Would there be a problem if it were reestablished or would we be recreating the original reason for the deletion? As far as I know the most recent discussion about this was at Xeno's archives followed by a request to have the Chicago Banner work for Redirects. Pknkly (talk) 21:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Is there someone else whom we should contact about this? Pknkly (talk) 21:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Pknkly (talk) 21:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly not a problem, per se; I deleted it originally as part of a mass cleanout of Redirect-Class categories, the vast majority of which were underpopulated and undermaintained. If WPChicago feels that having such a category is worth the effort spent in maintaining it, then there's certainly no problem with recreating it. Happy‑melon 21:42, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

...which I have now done. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Can this article be used for intended purpose

Seems this article had some sort of relevance and it may no longer be needed or used. Can it be recycled (i.e., all deleted ) and converted toward a new purpose? Pknkly (talk) 06:34, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The answer was yes and so the old category code list was deleted on 2009-09-10T01:18:26 with version #312932425.Pknkly (talk) 22:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Use of "MAIN_CAT"

The following copied from another discussion - statement made by (talk) 05:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC):

"For our project, the "WikiProject Chicago articles" category would normally have all the talk pages of every template-tagged article and non-articles within the project. This is determined by the "MAIN_CAT" parameter in the project banner template, which is currently not turned on, but it can easily be activated again. The only problem is that the cat. would be filled with the 19,000+ talk pages in the project and would need a large TOC for it; however, the advantage of it is that one would have a category with an alphabetical list of all the articles (and non-) within the project. The categories which are already in there would stay. Let me know if you think we should active the "MAIN_CAT" parameter again. (we'll have to do a rqst for an edit protected pg. again.)"

Copy done by Pknkly (talk) 14:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I will need to understand use and project history of "MAIN_CAT". Can you suggest pages I can look at? Pknkly (talk) 14:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the explanation is at: Template:WPBannerMeta/doc, under "Simple options". See: Category:WikiProject Polynesia articles for an example of how their template populates the category. To see the main cat code in their project banner template: [1]. Notice "|MAIN_CAT=WikiProject Polynesia articles" is the parameter used to turn on the category population. --Funandtrvl (talk) 17:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

This would make it easier on my bot. Having a full list of every article in the project's scope allows you to use the list comparer and ignore articles already tagged when tagging new articles. –xeno^talk 18:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good, I'll put in a request. --Funandtrvl (talk) 02:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't know what Xeno said, but I hope whatever we do plays into the needs of the bot developers. Thanks Xeno for paying attention. My participation will have more value after I read the items recommended by Funandtrvl. Pknkly (talk) 06:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

When I tag for you guys (which I plan to do soon, I promise ;p), I generate a list of all the articles found in your CHIBOTCATS. So I get XX,000 articles. But many of these are tagged already. So I put those articles into the List Comparer, and in the other column I can add this new MAIN_CAT. Then I compare the two lists, and anything appearing in the first list (CHIBOTCATS) not appearing in the 2nd list needs to be tagged. Make sense? –xeno^talk 13:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC) (I already do this now, but I have to take an extra step and add all the articles in the XX-class Chicago articles - this just makes it a tiny bit easier)

Thanks for breaking this down for me. Understood. Sounds like MAIN_CAT and CHIBOTCATS should be ideally the same. Is this difference report the Wikipedia:CHIBOTCATS/LOG? Pknkly (talk) 14:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Everything in CHIBOTCATS should be in MAIN_CAT and yes, the log will put anything not there. However, not everything in MAIN_CAT will be in CHIBOTCATS because some articles that may fall under the scope may not have a CHIBOTCAT. –xeno^talk 14:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I see how this works now!! So should we tag what's in CHIBOTCATS, or is there a bot that can do that? BTW, the MAIN_CAT is now active in the project template. See the list of 20,700+ (wow!) tagged articles/non-articles at: Category:WikiProject Chicago articles --Funandtrvl (talk) 16:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I read Template:WPBannerMeta/doc and Category:WikiProject Polynesia articles for an example of how their template populates the category. Very helpful. I don't like using a category that is a misnomer - they are not all articles. I see recognition of this problem with the use of the clarifying "articles/non-articles". I think this is the third time I expected to find all the encyclopedic articles within a category list because the term "articles" is used with the category name. This pattern of misuse of "article" in category names and the need for clarification seems so widespread and embedded within core processes that it is beyond the current work on wpchi/cat (other than to state in the section on how terms are used within wpchi/cat). So, unfortunately it seems we have to follow the pattern of misuse and clarification. Is there in fact a single category that has nothing but wpchi Articles (the encyclopedic ones in the Main namespace)? Thanks again for referring me to the examples and the official WPBanner doc. Pknkly (talk) 17:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I guess way back when, the project categories used "pages" instead of "articles" (i.e., Cat:Start-Class Chicago pages). For some reason, they changed it (I haven't had a chance to find those archived discussions), but we are stuck with the word "article" for now. Yes, that's why the use of the terms of articles & non-articles. No, I don't believe there is a sorted category for mainspace articles only (note that they would be mainspace talk pages), but to contact the ones who would know, just leave a note at: Template talk:WPBannerMeta, because they may be able to set up a parameter within the project's template that will do what you're asking. --Funandtrvl (talk) 17:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Too bad there currently isn't a single category containing all the mainspace talk pages that are in scope. I'll put off future stuff for later. I'll be happy if we can document what we have now.Pknkly (talk) 02:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we have all recognized the value in turning on MAIN_CAT and so this discussion can be archived. Agreed?

Got agreeement - archiving. Pknkly (talk) 13:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Chicago. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1