Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American Open Wheel Racing/Archive 4

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Merger proposal

I have proposed the merger of Vegas Grand Prix and Las Vegas Grand Prix. Please leave any comments you may have here. Thanks. DH85868993 02:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

2007 Indy 500 lineup -- if you feel the need to improve any articles

Just a little list.

Inside row

• Hélio Castroneves
• Scott Dixon
• Ryan Briscoe
• Tomas Scheckter
• Jeff Simmons
• Buddy Rice
• Vitor Meira
• Buddy Lazier
• Al Unser, Jr.
• Jaques Lazier
• Roberto Moreno

Middle row

• Tony Kanaan
• Sam Hornish Jr.
• Danica Patrick
• Michael Andretti
• Ed Carpenter
• Kosuke Matsuura
• Davey Hamilton
• Roger Yasukawa
• Alex Barron
• Milka Duno
• Richie Hearn

Outside row

• Dario Franchitti
• Dan Wheldon
• Marco Andretti
• Scott Sharp
• Darren Manning
• A.J. Foyt IV
• Sarah Fisher
• John Andretti
• Jon Herb
• Marty Roth
• Phil Giebler

Guroadrunner 10:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

• Part 1 - good to see everyone has an article. If any of the names strike you as something to improve, go for it! Guroadrunner 10:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

CART season pages deletions....NO!

Somebody, who I'm nt sure has anything to do with the Open Wheel project, put deletion tags on several of the CART/Champ Car seasons pages. I know that several people are working on some of them, and it's a long process, so I find it absurd that someone wants to deletion some that haven't been fully addressed yet. I think a little support is in order. Doctorindy 18:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't see it anywhere, let me know where it is so I get involved. Willirennen 22:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

{{Champ Car Seasons}}

I have contested all the prods as they are "under construction". This is why we have this WikiProject! In the future we should not start articles until we have more content than just the winners of the season. Royalbroil 23:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I am completely against deleting any of the rather slow, laborous work put in, under any circumstances (save inaccurate data, of course). Do people think this stuff is easy to come by, and then to put in some rational sense of order? --Chr.K. 01:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Most of my time is spend on various season pages for champ car, but I've only just seen the tags on the 80's pages that you are talking about. It's not like the information on the pages wasn't correct already, we just hadn't expanded as with the other pages yet. What's wrong with having the race winners on there until we are ready to expand. Surely some information is better than none? --Manwithaduck 10:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Some people apparently spend time looking around for things to delete. Someone actually had proposed deleting the pages. I don't understand why they didn't just put the cleanup tag on the articles. Royalbroil 14:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

All racetrack records

I propose all open-wheel racing track-record tables contain the same format as that done thus far for Indianapolis: Type of lap (unofficial/practice, qualifying [single or multiple laps, as applicable], and race), Distance for the record (both laps and equivalency in miles/kilometers), exact Date of the record, Driver and nationality, Time in 0:00:00.000 format, and Average Speed in both mph and km/h. Any objections to this standardization? --Chr.K. 02:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Royalbroil 05:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

• • I made a couple tweaks on the Homestead one, since we're "stacking" the cels, might as well group the cels info a little better. I actually created the NASCAR record box a while back, back when I started creating the NASCAR race winners chart that looks just like it. I don't have the time to go and update 30+ NASCAR races with the chart, so I was hoping someone else would pick up that slack...so far it's slow going...and it's slow going trying to get people to use the race records box too.
    • Also, take a lot of care to check the measured distances of the tracks. The IRL utilizes their own measurement of every track, which often differs from the NASCAR measurement, or the "common" measurement. For example, Homestead is a 1.5 mile oval, but it is officially recognized by the IRL as a 1.485 mile oval, thus the race distance is 297.0 miles.
      • Also, I don't see the need in having all of the leading zeros for the single lap qualifying record times ---> 0:00:24.462, it seems a bit excessive since a single lap on an oval race course will never be expressed in matters of "hours," are are rarely expressed in matters of "minutes" outside of road course events. Doctorindy 15:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The zeroes beforehand are to make a universal timing standard (just brought it up at WP:MOTOR discussion) for all records, be they race or single lap. By giving them the single format, the box sizes will remain the same, and can be read across swiftly by the eye. --Chr.K. 22:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

A new infobox for tracks has been created at WP:MOTOR, and all tracks need to use this new infobox. It is {{Motorsport venue}}. It should have all of the same fields as the NASCAR track infobox. It has the flexibility to have up to 4 tracks at the same facility. It also can include the all-time track record. Please use it on all articles, and you can change all existing articles (otherwise I will do it when I have time). Royalbroil 05:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Updated open-wheel track records template formats

1. Homestead-Miami Speedway (IndyCar only, let NASCAR 'pedians copy the style if they want)
2. Indianapolis Motor Speedway (template foundation)
3. Milwaukee Mile (needs CART/CCWS stats, ARCA race stats, and thousandths of a second on all exact race times)
4. Chicagoland Speedway

Since someone apparently wants a clarification on something...

In the IRL career statistics template I created, the section "Podiums / Non-Win" stands for the times a driver finished in the top three, but did not win, as the number of times that has occurred is in the section for wins (somewhat obviously), and would be redundant to include, even though the podium in open-wheel racing takes up the first three finishers, including the winner. Next, the section "Top 10s, Non-Podium" would be the times a driver finished in positions fourth through tenth, as top tens are referenced as one of the standard separation points in a performance even by Formula One. The reason I've gone with top three finish, then top ten, is because of the color coding standard used by international motorsport in wikipedia: gold/silver/bronze/green, then blue for "something less than green" (outside the top ten while still running, I decided made the most sense for all-positions-pay-points IRL), and purple, as standard, going out (internationally termed as "retirement" from a race). I don't know many people who've had a problem understanding this concept, but this is for whoever put up the "Clarify Please" citation on the Dario Franchitti page, on those two career results sections. I will now delete said citations, and update the sections with the conclusion of the Texas race. --Chr.K. 05:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Time to get brutal...

...on citations. I'm not going to remove any of the information contained in WP:AOWR articles, but the "This page contains no citations" image is going to start popping up all over the place until it gets dealt with (I myself, just as liable in failing to meet such standards). Meanwhile, to make sure people can quickly learn how to do that, I give you The Owl at Purdue (...University) [1], specifically the Work Cited: Electronic Sources and ...Other Non-Print Sources sections at the bottom of the page. We can all achieve this, so let's begin, eh? --Chr.K. 01:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Note that there is some relevant material in the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Motorsport/Library which may help with referencing. Much of the material is F1 focused at present, although be aware that the Autocourse season summaries have a 4-5 page section on racing in the US for each year, so may be useful for referencing at least the less obscure stuff. Cheers. 4u1e 08:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I have been very serious about sourcing for the past year, so I'm not the problem. Unfortunately, I am spread thin - I contribute to 6 WikiProjects and have a broad racing knowledge. So I work on many articles outside WikiProjects too. I prefer to use inline citations with templates like {{cite web}} and {{cite news}}. 4u1e has been helping me gain Good Article experience with the Mario Andretti article. I hope it is getting close to attempting GA. Chr.K., please comment about the image that I proposed above. Royalbroil 12:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

References

• Per the Wiki news references, the proper, and cleaner way to cite a news article is as follows (in this example):

<ref name="Another diverse schedule">
<small>{{cite news |url=http://sports.yahoo.com/irl/news?slug=txindycarnotebook&prov=st&type=lgns
|title=Another diverse schedule 
|publisher=IndyCar.com
|date=[[2007-09-18]]
|accessdate=2007-09-18
}}</small></ref>

Followed by the "<references/>" tag at the bottom of the page.

As a tip, including the "<small> & </small>" tags help allow the references from taking up too much room on the bottom of the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctorindy (talk • contribs)

Most contributors are now using the {{reflist}} instead of <references />. I haven't see the <small> tag in use. Maybe I need to start using it. Please link to your source. Royalbroil 14:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Race page details

I want to add a new standard to the Career Results tables, that of most laps led in the race, and identifying it through underline the three abbreviation letters. Thoughts? --Chr.K. 16:30, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Update: As it turns out, the thing won't take to putting in the [u][/u] markers, so any suggestions on how to classify/identify most laps led would be welcome. --Chr.K. 16:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Any universal source/website for track records?

After looking around, I'm not finding any place where they jotted down the IRL times and speeds for Iowa, and for that matter other places. --Chr.K. 23:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I will reiterate this, just under one month later. --Chr.K. 05:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any sources. Royalbroil 03:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Standard race track infobox

There is a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Motorsport#Circuit_Infoboxes about creating a standard infobox for all race tracks regardless of their sanctioning body or type. Please join the discussion there to ensure that all of our concerns are met. Royalbroil 13:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

What does "Ret" mean?

Good day! Have edited one, poked around many, IRL driver articles and am curious as to what "Ret" means? I assume its some type of "non-finish" but its really not clear. "Wth" must be "Withdraw." A small key to the abbreviation system after those Career Result boxes might be a good idea.
Also wondering if anyone knows of an IRL driver infobox, or if one should be created? Thanks, ZueJay (talk) 02:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

"Ret" means retired - they chose to end their race for some reason (frequently mechanical). "Wth" means withdrawl. Royalbroil 04:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The term is the international standard, i.e. by FIA-sanctioned racing series, for entries that are no longer running at the conclusion of a race. The F1 driver season template had the abbreviation first, and it was kept to help provide standardization across all WP:MOTOR sub-projects. All of the others have the same thing, as far as I know. On another matter, you're invited to join WP:AOWR if you think you can help in any way. Thanks always for the support. --Chr.K. 15:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up - I kinda figured that's what it meant but since I wasn't sure I didn't want to get into any "rv wars" or any such silly thing over a term I wasn't sure of. And thanks for the invite, but for now I'll have to decline as I am already a member of a wikiproject I rarely remember to contribute to - but I'll probably keep it on my watchlist now. Thanks ZueJay (talk) 00:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Star Mazda

Should the Star Mazda Series be included in this Wikiproject, or should it fall to the Motorsport Wikiproject?Mustang6172 19:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, the series above it, Formula Atlantic, is WP:AOWR; and the series below it, Formula Ford is WP:MOTOR. I say add Star Mazda Series and Formula Mazda to WP:AOWR only. Add Formula Ford to WP:AOWR, and keep Formula Ford in WP:MOTOR since it occurs throughout the world too. Royalbroil 03:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd treat it like continents vs. countries vs. regions. WP:MOTOR should only have "mental continents" of division between its subjects, like the differences between a given F1, AOWR, Sportscars, etc. If Star Mazda is a open-wheel class beneath that of IRL and CCWS, and is based in America, it should be included in WP:AOWR and not WP:MOTOR, even if it has international races (like CCWS at Surfer's Paradise, for instance). --Chr.K. 10:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Archive 3

Moved some older talk material to Archive3...linked above in the box. Doctorindy 14:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Driver results: new format needed

The previous discussion of it got stowed in an archive. While this can be accessed, it would be better to have a sidebar listing for drivers, and in this case season stats, so as to be able to focus on the pages that haven't been treated yet. I just added in Davey Hamilton's, and am in the process of going through each of the drivers who qualified for the 2007 500. --Chr.K. 05:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ret designation and top 10 finishes

I was updating some of the IRL Career Results on the driver pages to reflect the 8/5/07 Michigan race, and noticed that 3 of the drivers who retired - AJ Foyt IV, Hornish, and Dixon - finished 8th, 9th, and 10th respectively. Since I'm new at editing, I wanted to doublecheck: I assume that the retired designation and color take precedent over other applicable designations, including top 10; I also assume that a top 10 finish, even if retired, is included under the Top 10s (Non-podium) category. Please let me know if these were incorrect assumptions and I will correct my updates. --Sesameball 07:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

While I'm posting, I should add that another issue stemming from the "Ret" designation is that the finishing positions are not shown. This can create some (visual) dichotomy. In these cases, for example, the "Top 10s (Non-podium)" category will show a higher number than there are green-colored top-10 finishes in the table above it; also, career bests (which Foyt IV achieved with his 8th place) will not be reflected in the table. This is more relevant in leagues such as IRL (and Champ and NASCAR, I'd imagine) where virtually every competitor receives a point (I can see it being less relevant in, say, Formula One where points are not as broadly distributed and 90% laps have to be completed to classify anyway). While it is certainly important to note retirements, I wonder if there is a way to work in finishing positions into the table as well. --Sesameball 07:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I've recently considered this situation as well, especially with the advent of the decisive incident at Michigan. In the end, the problem is simply how differently American organizations and fans look at scoring than do their international counterparts; F1 requiring 90% of the race completed for competitors to even be identified as HAVING finished, for instance, vs. running in a given spot if no other cars are ahead of you in American racing. As it stands, I say a Ret should always take precedence over a green top ten marking, as to differentiate between the cars that were running and those that were not. On the issue of Top 10s (Non-podium), however, I wonder if further disambiguation is required, namely to require them to have been still running. I further realize that this means the research for the positions will likely have to come from "brutal" piecing together of a career, proverbially inch by inch, but in the end, that problem exists because of the more NASCARish way IRL currently views scoring, even though it is open-wheel. In the end, it's likely that I'm in favor of a solution that makes less sense to those who know only the American formats, and not the more international standard. --Chr.K. 21:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Another consideration is that indycar.com included those three retirements from Michigan as Top 10 finishes, so if we don't include them on wiki, we would be at odds with the information on the IndyCar website. However, I agree that retirements should take precedent as far as the color scheme goes (as well as some sort of notation). While discussion can continue regarding whether or not a retirement constitutes a finish, I simply think that the point structure of IRL (and ChampCar, for that matter) dictates that there is a benefit to showing the final position in each race even when a driver retires - especially since our template has the cumulative points listed immediately to the right. --Sesameball 23:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

If we show all such Top 10s, we would have to show all the Top 10s with podium finishes inclusive, since the IRL site clumps them all together, or would have to count each and every driver's results up, one by one...because originally, I don't think I included them, if a top ten car did not finish. Perhaps F1ish of me, but it's the mindset I've been raised in, I guess (and perhaps humorous, for one who's attended every Indianapolis since just older than toddler...not one to expect to use F1 standards for scoring...but there it is). --Chr.K. 07:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Article I've nominated for deletion

Discussion here. Davnel03 12:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I copied the above post from WikiProject NASCAR and WikiProject Motorsport, since it was misplaced. Royalbroil

Proposal to rationalise infoboxes at WT:MOTOR

We have a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport#Proposed solution for the infobox issue that revolves around a new infobox design (seen here and here) that will replace {{Infobox racing driver}} and a number of other driver infoboxes. We hope that these can include the Champ Car infoboxes (and cater for the IRL and other series that you manage with this project), but I would like some feedback about whether the template has the fields that you need or whether there are some essential fields that I have missed. The design is hopefully quite settled now, but technical additions can easily be made if they are necessary. Pro-forma layout guides will be provided as required. Adrian M. H. 11:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Race Logo Images

Last year, and into this year, I uploaded nearly all of the IRL race logos for the IRL race pages. Much the same as had been done for the Nextel Cup race pages. Up until now, there was no problems. Recently, I've become burned by several bots and by the self-annoited "wiki image police," and a lot of the (legidimate) rationale is being questioned. I've worked on filling out this template for the race logo images, and it needs to be added to all of the existing and all future logo images. I will try to work on it for the existing (before they get deleted), but some help may be in order, since each one has to be tweaked. Not sure why they've started picking on the AOW logos, because much bigger topics (NFL, etc.) have more glaring logo issues. I've completed ...so there's an example for a non-Indy 500 image. Doctorindy 17:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Things have gone from the most conservative image stance on the internet, to more conservative, to more conservative, to the point where now if you didn't take the picture yourself you might as well not upload it. The deletionists have ruled in image deletion. They use bots to make image deletion quicker and easier for them. I notice a lot of people have infoboxes complaining about copyright paranoia on images. Free use or promotional images are pretty much the past. I don't waste time on an image that I didn't take myself, and I suggest that you don't either. Royalbroil 03:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, sounds reasonable. However, I think that the Indy 500 logos are worthy of saving. I took the time to put the info boxes on those, so they probably will remain. I'm taking the example from the Super Bowl pages, where they have the individual game logos for each one. Since the rest of the races on the IRL schedule don't possess quite the magnitude of importance as the Indy 500 itself, I'll let those expire or be deleted as they occur.Doctorindy 14:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I want a picture of the start of an Indianapolis 500 (preferably 2005, where Barnhart wasn't able to freak it up due to "safety" reasons) up there on the article. If they delete it, I say we should create a bot to put it back, and hell, crash all the servers if it goes that far. Ruthless, but I for one am sick of this bull****. --Chr.K. 10:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Who is this?

I suspect that this freely licensed photo ([2]) is of a current CCWS driver, but I'm no expert. Can anyone identify him?--Diniz (talk) 16:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This one ([3]) as well.--Diniz (talk) 16:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about the first image, so I asked. The second one is Will Power. I figured it out from his car plus his image on his team website. Please upload his car and all of the other car images in the set to Commons too. What an awesome set! You can save tons of time if you use the experimental service and have the Commons server download the image directly from flickr to Commons. Royalbroil 19:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I have already uploaded photos in the set of Bourdais, Clarke, Junqueira, Tagliani, Jani, Pagenaud, Tracy, Legge and Wilson, and will upload the one of Power directly. Do you think that is enough, or are there more that deserve to be uploaded?--Diniz (talk) 20:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Flickr seems to be down at the moment, so I'll try again later.--Diniz (talk) 20:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Yea, flickr is down for me too. I suggest uploading anyone who has started in a ChampCar race. You never know where people might go from the lesser teams! One start makes them notable if they weren't before IMHO. Also upload all of the cars. They look nice in the articles IMHO. Ideally I would like to see a picture of each year's car for each driver. Royalbroil

I've uploaded the photo of Power and this one of a Team Australia car. I think all of the drivers in the set have been uploaded, but I'm not sure about the cars, as I really don't know anything about the liveries of the smaller teams. I can only identify Newman-Haas, and there's a better photo from this year already available for them.--Diniz (talk) 10:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable, especially if you can't read their number. Royalbroil 12:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Category:Dutch Champ Car drivers

I notice the recent creation of Category:Dutch Champ Car drivers. Do we want to subdivide Category:Champ Car drivers by nationality? If so, then I would suggest moving all the Champ Car driver articles from Category:Champ Car drivers into the relevant national subcategory, as has been done for Category:Formula One drivers. Having said that, I personally don't think this is necessary for the Champ Cars drivers category to be subdivided at this stage - the category currently contains only 181 articles (i.e. less than a whole "page"), so I'd actually recommend leaving all the Champ Car driver articles in Category:Champ Car drivers and deleting Category:Dutch Champ Car drivers, noting that all 4 drivers in that category are already in both Category:Dutch racecar drivers and Category:Champ Car drivers, so it's pretty easy to work out that they're Dutch Champ Car drivers. (It could be argued that the same logic applies to Formula One drivers, but if they weren't subdivided by nationality, there would be about 800 articles in Category:Formula One drivers, which is a lot, compared to 181). Perhaps subdivision of Category:Champ Car drivers will be necessary in the future, but I don't think it is at the moment. Thoughts? DH85868993 08:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with have having the category deleted as overcategorization. Royalbroil 11:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Recommend deletion as well -- CART was not as international as F1 until about 1993, so that differs a lot of things. However, if this is a CfD, all I ask is be sure not to bite the newbie who made the category in good faith. -- Guroadrunner 19:23, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with not biting his good faith addition. The only country that I might support for creating a category at this time would be for American Champ Car drivers. Royalbroil 19:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

IndyCar article, new section "History of the IndyCar name"

User:GoldDragon started this new section in the disambiguous page. Please check it out and comment on its talk page. I bring it up because it is unusual to have a much text in a disambiguous page, and now there is a large section of text. It will probably get challenged, so we should determine consensus now. Royalbroil 12:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Project expansion

We either need expansion of the project's scope to include midget and sprint car racing, karting, and the multiple tiers of American open-wheel road racing, or we need subprojects under this one for that purpose. I support the former, and lobby to accordingly alter the description of the project in the Wikiproject Motorsports page. --Chr.K. 03:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I have always be under the impression that midget and sprint cars are part of this WikiProject. I'm fine with adding American karting to this WikiProject too. While WP:AOWR does emphasize the two IndyCar derivatives as stated, feel free to alter the WP:AOWR description at WP:MOTOR to talk about the other genres. I have done significant work on midget car articles. I worked moderately on sprint car articles since I haven't found as many sources. While they could become "task forces" for WP:AOWR, I would support keeping them as an integral part of WP:AOWR. Royalbroil 04:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Then unless any of the others have objections, such is hereby implemented. --Chr.K. 20:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Geobox for Race Tracks

I have been working with Caroig in creating a better box off to the right for race tracks. For now, Chicagoland Speedway has been the test for fields that are needed to be included. I am looking for thoughts on this, and/or suggestions on how to improve. I feel that this one presents all the info the old infobox offered, but with some other perks. It will look better with a bigger article, but this was just the first test.--Kranar drogin 02:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The discussion has been moved to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Motorsport#Geobox_for_Race_Tracks since the infobox affects all motorsport WikiProjects. Royalbroil 04:02, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Champ Car Grand Prix of Spain

I have started this page do to the fact that Champ Car is going to Jerez next season. If anyone else has any more information please help. Fanofspeed 22:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Retirements

Ive noticed on some champ car articles that when a driver has an accident it is recorded down as 'contact'. Shouldnt we say 'accident' instead of just saying 'contact' or we could say 'collision'. Check the f1 articles they would help. Pattav2 02:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

In the F1 articles, (as far as I'm aware) we just copy whatever they say at the Official F1 site (www.formula1.com) on a case-by-case basis, rather than attempting to have a standard across all the articles. If there's an official site for Champ Car results, I would recommend copying whatever they write there. DH85868993 02:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Board track racing

Picture this: Sleek National Championship cars from the Indianapolis 500 running wheel to wheel at breakneck speeds around fabulous, steeply banked super-speedways, some of the tracks being banked at upwards of 40 degrees.

Sound like now?

Would you believe this was happening in the 1920s? And on super-speedways made out of......WOOD?

Indeed, almost every AAA-sanctioned National Championship event for that entire decade was contested on tracks that were not far removed from those of today except that they were constructed out of wooden planks.

- Donald Davidson, On the Boards, motorsports history article, 2005 Indianapolis 500 Official Program

Per Royalbroil's request that I show how the matter pertains to open-wheel racing in America. As all National Championship events in AAA (as well as USAC, et al.) history are by definition "thoroughbred" formula (open-wheel) cars, hopefully that material summarizes my reasoning. Further material to be posted if demanded. --Chr.K. 16:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, and I support the claim that board track racing was a significant part of the history of major-level open-wheel racing in the USA. It wasn't just a localized or trivial variation practiced only by small-timers in cast-off cars. Barno 21:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I noticed Chr.K.'s edits to the article before I noticed this discuss, and I already left a message on Chr.K.'s talk page agreeing that it should be added. I'm about to start an article on board track motorcycle rider Eddie Hasha. His death and subsequent front page headlines on the New York Times was influential to the demise of board tracks. I would appreciate it if anyone who had sources on him would let me know. I have one source used in the board track racing article, and another is the actual New York Times article on their website. Royalbroil 01:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Something interesting to note, not just in an academic sense but in relation to this project, is just how important board track racing was, or so I now believe, to the history of open-wheel racing in the United States, as opposed to Europe, et al. I would even go so far as to say it should have a High-Importance rating (or even Top), if such is ever introduced into AOWR tags, due to the impact the atmosphere of "the boards" during the period. Extreme high speed (for the day), wheel-to-wheel action rivaling anything from the dirt track, sprint car races, and pushing the machines to the limit? I would hazard to say that, quite possibly, it was such 1920s races that were the ultimate source of modern American fascination and/or focus on oval racing, in a way that European racing has never remotely approached. As such...I have come to think of this as the Lost Era that actually set the tone ever after, or at least to this present age. --Chr.K. (talk) 01:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to reassess the article, and it change it as you have indicated. I originally assessed it, and I wrote the majority of the article. I didn't want to overstate the importance of the subject or to "blow my own horn". I never heard of it before it kept coming up in research for Wikipedia articles. Royalbroil 02:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Not sure it mentions the Eddie Hasha death, but The Golden Age of the American Racing Car is an extensive, though possibly less well-known these days, scholarly reference work to the period of the early 20s to middle to later 30s, but specifically of the 20s board track days. I intend to soon begin introducing material from it into the article, as well as into other articles referencing the same time period, especially Murphy's 1921 French Grand Prix win, one of only two times that I know of where an American-built and driver car captured an international Grand Prix. --Chr.K. (talk) 18:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, Board track racing continued to be popular into the late 20's. I feel that primary factor that triggered its downfall was the increased speed of champ cars and especially midgets. When cars first appeared on the board tracks most midgets were powered by small outboard boat engines, by the end of the 20's Miller racing engines and Ford flathead V8's were commonplace in those cars and they were much faster. I think there was concern that a field of champ cars could actually destroy the track. Chris Economaki in his book Let them ALL go has a good description of a late 20's champ car testing on a board track and how it was completely unsuitable at that time. -Drdisque (talk) 17:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposed addition of categories to "<year> Indianapolis 500" articles

Sometime in the next few days, I'm planning to add [Category:<year> in motorsport] to all the [<year> Indianapolis 500] articles. Are there any objections to me adding [Category:<year> in the United States] at the same time?, noting that some of the Indy race report articles already have this category, e.g. 1975 Indianapolis 500 is already included in Category:1975 in the United States. DH85868993 (talk) 02:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not object to either addition. Royalbroil 03:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I favor the motion. --Chr.K. (talk) 03:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. DH85868993 (talk) 13:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Bill Cantrell

User:JulieSullivan56 has recently added a note to Bill Cantrell stating that the article combines information on Willard Cantrell (died 1986) and William Cantrell (died 1996). Perhaps someone here can sort it out. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 13:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure that I'm at least partially to blame, so I'll fix it. Royalbroil 14:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully this doesn't sound cynical, but if JulieSullivan56 happens to know the truth, he or she is more than invited to give us the particulars of the facts, so that it can be fixed and all. --Chr.K. (talk) 16:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully I fixed it properly. I caused most of the problem when I used the midget car driver Hall of Fame source to update the other driver's entry. It's easy to see how they can be confused with the simular name and career path. It's somewhat odd that a boat racer became an IndyCar driver. Royalbroil 16:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

POLITICS, to keep everyone appraised:

A "major announcement," concerning something, is scheduled for this Thursday, February 21, 2008, apparently just announced on WFNI, 1070 ("Home of the 500") SportRadio, Indianapolis. This could be It; bulletins as events unfold. --Chr.K. (talk) 23:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Time to update things... --Chr.K. (talk) 12:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

It's about time! Royalbroil 14:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Not so fast... Chuck (talk) 18:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, story has changed. Hooray! Chuck (talk) 22:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI - Champ Car merger into IRL deal signed

http://www.indycar.com/news/story.php?story_id=10557

Confirmed primary source, not second-hand from a newspaper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.175.18.130 (talk) 23:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)