Wikipedia talk:Using Jmol to display molecular models

Please contact also the 'Blue Obelisk Movement'

You should contact people from the Blue Obelisk Movement. Possible extensions and possibilities of the actual ideas would be:

• using JChemPaint which uses the CDK to edit structures and visualize them in 2D.
• storing structures and meta data in Chemical Markup Language, e.g. boilding points, etc.
• Categorizing every data would allow some fancy mining ideas.

JKW 18:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Comments and suggestions on the Jmol Extension ?

Then, please add them directly in the discussion page dedicated to the Jmol Extension on MediaWiki in the Jmol Wiki. NicoV 20:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

All right JKW 22:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I dropped an e-mail on the Blue Obelisk mailing list that your recommended page should be used to exchange all ideas, technical issues, and everything else which is necessary to get Jmol and other chemical tools to work together with Mediawiki. JKW 23:01, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I entirely agree that all discussion about Jmol and MediaWiki should take place at the Jmol Wiki discussion page. Wikipedia:Using Jmol to display molecular models is concerned with how we use Jmol on Wikipedia, but the next step is to get the applet and scripts installed on the Wikipedia servers. I am waiting until NicoV has completed the current extensions before trying to get this done. JKW - thanks for alerting to me on my talk page to the edits all over that had occurred while I slept on the the other side of the world. --Bduke 01:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Just to be really clear on this! Especially in the area of small molecules there is still a huge problem with collecting high quality data, since many people have many ideas which properties are the 'real' properties. Since there was and still is a huge Cheminformatics community forcing more open standards, open data, and open access I hope really that Wikipedia supports all those efforts.

Means, beside the visualization Wikipedia or other Mediawiki servers might become THE standard for storing and collecting data in a highly verbose and open way. This is especially in this area crucial, since for example Mediawiki talk pages might be used to establish a common view why some properties are preferred in favour of others. This is true knowledge building!

I am really looking forward for any positive' news in this direction.

JKW 21:04, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Jmol extension is really useful --Pansanel 07:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Many molecular structures are difficult to handle in 2D sketch. A 3D visualization software is great for this job. For example, calixarene derivatives have a cone shape. Such molecule can really better understand with a 3D interactive tool.

To keep you informed (check the current status on the official page and the example page for the Jmol Extension :

• I have redesigned the Jmol Extension this weekend (much cleaner source code) and the new format (only <jmol> tags) is working. I will start working on the other ideas. --NicoV 21:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
• Support for loading molecular models from an URL added (21:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)), from a wiki page added (13:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)), from files uploaded in the wiki added (16:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)). I think I have finished with implementing the possibilities of loading data into Jmol.
• An addition that I think would be useful for the Wiki: rather than directly adding a Jmol applet in a MediaWiki page (which requires loading the applet when viewing the page), I have added the possibility to add a button opening a new window with the Jmol applet in it (the applet will only be loaded for people that want to see the molecule in 3D).

--NicoV

Brilliant idea. I love it. --Bduke 22:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

• Other additions: links, links that open a popup window, checkboxes, menus, radio groups.

I have finished the features I wanted to add for a first functional version of the Jmol extension. Comments (and tests) are welcome in the official talk page for the extension.

How are we to use Jmol on Wikipedia?

I hope to have Jmol installed on Wikipedia soon, when NicoV's extension stabalises. How are we use the various options he has given us? We could:-

• Add molecular coordinates in page.
• Add molecular coordinate files as a wiki page such as a sub page of the article page.
• Upload the files to somewhere on Wikipedia or on Commons.

Let us debate this before starting to use it. The first two options are illustrated at my user page on the Jmol wiki. --Bduke 22:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The third option is illustrated at this page, and you can see the possibility of categorizing the molecular data in this category page. --NicoV 04:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

My own thoughts:

• Option 1 would clutter the edit if used for other than very small molecules.
• Between option 2 and 3, I don't know. Option 3 enables the use of gzipped files which can be interesting for very big files, but all files will be stored in the Image namespace (but categories can still be used). --NicoV 20:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I have one concern about putting files in the image space. We are likely to be pestered by bots who check for allowed use of images. We will get deletions of files and messages on our talk pages warning us about the files we have uploaded. I will talk to the WP technical guy about this. I think a lot of files will be small and can go "inline" (option 1). Larger ones could use option 2. Maybe only those used in several places should use option 3. --Bduke 22:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Settings for Jmol images on Wikipedia

I am trying to initiate discussion on settings we should use for 3D images on the Structure Working group talk page. Could this group suggest what should be used? We should make sure things harmonise well with what we are doing with other 3D image formats. I know very little about this, can you guys advise? Thanks, Walkerma 16:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Recent progress

While it is a long time since this project was last mentioned, it has not been forgotten. The problem has been that the Jmol extensions for MediaWike are not thought to be sufficiently secure for the Wikipedia Technical folk. The author of the Jmol extension for MediaWiki has been too busy, and, like me, too ignorant of the security issues, to fix this. However, I am now reasonably confident that it will be fixed before too long. Other issues are:-

Media for Jmol data

The extension has several ways of having the data ready for Jmol as detailed here:-

1. Data being an uploaded file like image files.
2. Data being a standard wiki page or sub-page.
3. Data being inline in the page calling Jmol.
4. Data being a URL of a file on another server.

I do not see the WP techs supporting 4. It seems to me that we should be using (1) and getting the system to treat data files just like images. The extension also supports showing the Jmol image in a pop-up window. I strongly support this for WP as downloading the applet can be slow and we do not want people to download it not knowing they do so when they just click on a link. --Bduke (talk) 06:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The pop-up window is shown here. --Bduke (talk) 06:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

My User page on the Jmol Wiki here shows a pop-up window and an example of how a Jmol image can appear in a paragraph like images do. --Bduke (talk) 07:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikiversity

I particularly want to get Jmol working on Wikiversity as it is widely used in educational materials on computational chemistry including some we are planing to put on to Wikiversity. The appropriate format for the Jmol data here is I think the uploaded file. This points to a later development of uploading data file to Commons. --Bduke (talk) 06:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Is this the time?

There has been renewed interest on this on the Jmol list, with recent discussion suggesting that use be enabled within the chemical infobox. The security issues appear to have been resolved. A really good example of the use of the Jmol extension on a wiki is on Proteopedia here. Details of the jmol email list are here. You will also find examples of the use of the extension on the Jmol Wiki itself. We need to convince the WMF techs to install the jmol mediawiki extension, so we need to show that we want this. I think this is the time to make a determined push to get it installed. --Bduke (Discussion) 22:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

This is great news but will only work if developers of the Wikipedia extension and of Jmol are actively and committedly working on it and monitoring the introduction closely. I have a few questions/suggestions:

1. Is there already a server side script that automatically creates and caches images to display as a fallback?
2. Any code (e.g. JavaScript) execution by the applet must be prevented, preferably by stripping such functionality from the script applet at all. For security reasons it might possibly a good idea to restrict file formats by stripping the applet.
3. A related issue is the loading of files from external servers. This option must be eliminated, preferably by hard-coding and code elimination
4. As a Jmol feature request (and possible standard display mode on Wikipedia!) I would like to see a style that mimics normal skeletal structures (black on white, solid lines, implicit hydrogens, heteroatom symbol display). Common editors such as ChemDraw can do this.

Cacycle (talk) 00:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The first step is getting the WMF techs on side. Once it is installed, then I believe the Jmol people will monitor closely. To your questions:

1. I do not know, but I think the idea is is to have an ordinary image there and a button to click to bring up the jmol image, so it will not come up by default and there will still be an image there.
2. If I understand you correctly I think that will be done.
3. Loading files from external servers is certainly a no-no. In fact it might only use uploaded files, with a restricted set of file extensions approved.
4. Perhaps you should raise this on the Jmol list.

I might add that I have nothing to do with the jmol wikimedia extension, although I have tried it out. I have been pushing this for years, but have not had much support. I am mainly acting as a link between the jmol list and wikipedia. It is certainly going to need support from those who work on chemical infoboxes. --Bduke (Discussion) 02:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

1. The default/preview/fallback image should be automatically generated server-side so that we do not have to waste time on doing this by hand

Cacycle (talk) 04:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

How? It is quite distinct from the jmol extension. Maybe I am not understanding you. --Bduke (Discussion) 06:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I suggest to have a still image as a preview and fallback for no-Java enabled browsers displayed. This image should be a preview of what you see in the applet, i.e. a rendered molecule image. You could create these by hand by creating a screenshot, edit it, upload it, and embed it by hand for every change done to the molecule. The server side Jmol extension should take care of this. Cacycle (talk) 13:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

A little feedback, from my Jmol side and some experience with design of the Extension: (--AngelHerraez (talk) 17:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC))

1. Although the Jmol application has the capability to generate a snapshot, having that done in the server is going to be hard if even possible. I don't think we can aim for that now, it's a wholly separate business. We will have to be content with a link or button; or the page editor may insert his own image as a link.

2. That is already implemented in the Extension: the inserted applet will not execute any Javascript. File formats can hardly be restricted, since Jmol uses plain text or gzipped files, but does not rely on their extension. But again, there is no way an arbitrary file will be executed; only supported formats will produce an output in the form of a molecular model.

3. Loading from external servers is disabled by Java security, as long as the unsigned applet is used (which is the default and may be the only choice per the Wiki administrators decision in configuring the Extension).

4. That is certainly feasible using Jmol scripting, but I don't see why a 3D model should be made look as a 2D drawing. We can discuss the details though.

As I see it, we have two possible ways of having Jmol applets in WP, at least for the first stage:

• The full use of the Extension by editors who have learned to use its markup. That will allow applets and controls acting on them, opening basically the full potential of Jmol. The applets would load with the page, which delays the page load and should be used only with a previous warning for the visitors (like e.g. on a previous page).
  • As a sub-choice, such editor may choose to include only applets in pop-up windows (using the Extension standard methods) that are opened by the user clicking on a link or button. That avoids any undesired delays, avoids taking space from the page, and allows to warn the visitor, but limits the interaction with the model since no controls can be inserted in the popup. In addition, some people don't like popups (I want to research into inline possibilities)
• The second way is to implement a simpler way of inserting a JmolApplet that uses the Extension internally. An example is the proposed implementation as part of the ChemBox. The editor will need to learn how to use the ChemBox and its particular syntax for Jmol, which could be as simple as the model's file name or page name. The applet would show in a popup, and the warning can be preprogrammed into the Chembox. You can see an example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AngelHerraez (talk • contribs)

Some valuable insight here. Thanks, Angel. I like the Chembox example, and I think we should aim to get that implemented first, although making it clear to the tech people, that there will be demand for other uses. I am not clear where the pdb file is and how it is installed. I would also comment that while Jmol does not use extensions, file upload on wikipedia or Commons does. We would have to add the pdb file extensions and others to the allowed file types for upload.

In the example at SklogWiki the model files are put as content of pages (maybe in a specific space within the wiki, not sure); they have decided that instead of uploading the files, but either way should not make a difference regarding functionality.

I know about authorizing extensions for upload. What I mean is that even if only PDB was authorized, anyone could upload an XYZ file renamed as PDB. I don't think that a checking can be run on those file formats (as it is done, if I reckon correctly, on images, not only based on extension but on content).

I am doing progress with using a link to have the applets inserted into the page, rather than in a pop-up window. I hope to demo that soon once the JmolWiki engine and Extension have been updated.

Ideas about most desirable formats are welcome. --AngelHerraez (talk) 18:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

There should not be file uploading, parameters and coordinates should be inside the markup code, perhaps as an included subpage. Popups will most certainly not be tolerated on Wikipedia.

I still think that the best way to implement such an extension would be clicking on an automatically created preview image (which could appear on the page with an CSS-overlaid button or arrow) to load the applet seamlessly on the same page using JavaScript. This should be relatively easy to implement by a developer familiar with Jmol and Mediawiki using a server-side Jmol operated by the extension. The extension should provide all reasonable options provided by Jmol so that wiki users and template developers are not restricted to default options. It could make some reasonable default assumptions based on the molecule type or size though.

The reason to have skeletal structure rendering as an option for smaller molecules is that we could use this as the "main" structure of chemical infoboxes. Cacycle (talk) 20:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Some comments to Cacycle:

I am totally convinced of the usefulness of Jmol in WP, but would not endorse all of these views.

• There should not be file uploading :: Are you only thinking on small chemicals? The smallest protein or oligosaccharide would take an enormous length as wikitext, useless anyway to look at or be edited. There is also the issue of reusing the models, which would be easier with uploaded (and shared) files. On the other hand, several other people have commented on the desirability of having a system as close as possible to images.

I think that very small molecules could be inline, everything bigger should go into an article subpage or into a special (pseudo) namespace. The model can then be embedded either via standard template inclusion or via applet access of the model subpage. As all files are (or should be) textfiles, this approach would provide full version control and easy editing. Cacycle (talk)

I did not think about inter-project use through the Commons but this would work equally well with having the text on the Commons (except the template inclusion option). Cacycle (talk) 00:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

• Popups will most certainly not be tolerated on Wikipedia :: I am working on applets opened inline, and it's feasible. However, they will disrupt the page layout, as all text will reflow around; that may not be nice either. In any case, we are not speaking of autolaunched, obtrusive popups, but of a new, small but resizable, browser window that will be opened upon user action and can be consulted once and again while reading along the page, or two windows opened to compare two structures. I think that's also an interesting feature.

It is my impression that any popup would never be accepted on Wikipedia as part of the default configuration. Additionally, a separate browser window might not work reliably enough under all browsers/addons due to popup blockers and tab-relocating. A popup would probably be better implemented as a JavaScript-operated DIV. Cacycle (talk)

I am not convinced that pop-up blockers will block a window opened because you have clicked on a link. True popups are by definition windows that open without any user control. But anyway, we can do inline insertion of Jmol into a div.--AngelHerraez (talk) 19:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

• an automatically created preview image ... to load the applet seamlessly ... should be relatively easy to implement :: As I said, I believe this is nontrivial to implement (and I do have experience in Jmol and the MW Extension). Further, it will require heavy changes in the server side (I doubt that the extension will be allowed to execute the Java application on the server --speaking of security concerns and reluctance to change). The seamlessly is relative as I explained above.

I don't know much about server-side Java security concerns, but this could probably run on a completely separate (dedicated) server independent of Mediawiki and the extension because all it has to do is to access the model subpage and to create, serve, and cache the preview images. Cacycle (talk)

With separate I was talking about a logical independence from the Mediawiki software and the extension. It should be able to run separate, e.g. to allow to run it on a dedicated server inside the Wikipedia cluster transparent for the user. Cacycle (talk) 00:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

• The extension should provide all reasonable options provided by Jmol :: The extension is designed in fact to provide full functionality, but the former discussions have advocated precisely for having a simpler route for normal page editors.
• some reasonable default assumptions based on the molecule type :: I don't think that evaluating the molecule type is feasible. Any kind of molecule can go in any kind of file format.

I was more thinking about molecule size to switch between several default configurations. That way a protein would be automatically rendered differently from a small or a very small molecule without editor intervention. The display parameters could be provided by a template, but only the extension and Jmol know the molecule size. Cacycle (talk)

The extension knows nothing about the molecule but its filename. Jmol could read the size e.g. the total number of atoms, but only after the molecule has loaded, and I doubt it could pass that to the extension.. wait, no need for that, it's all Jmol scripting that would do the rendering style decision. It's quite a technical chellenge anyway.--AngelHerraez (talk) 19:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

• skeletal structure rendering ... we could use this as the "main" structure of chemical infoboxes :: But that means the applet would have to be loaded, rather than just an image. Loading times are significant sometimes, and all efforts are being devoted to avoid that delaying the page or disturbing users.

The image placeholder would serve as the main chemical structure, only clicking on it would load the applet once which is then cached in the browser. There should be an indicator on the preview image that this is a clickable placeholder as described above. Cacycle (talk) 19:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

So, Cacycle, I think that you want a sophisticated tool, which is great in my opinion, but not the first step in implememtation, particularly in view of the previous reluctance expreseed by the WP admins/tech people.

I don't mean to be rude or discouraging, I'm just trying to find what is our best bet for this and hear opinions :-)

--AngelHerraez (talk) 17:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I am not trying to stand in the way of progress with unrealistic requests. But knowing the reluctance of the Wikipedia developers to adopt changes it is important to anticipate their objections and those of the sometimes rather conservative and ideologic user base to get everything right before officially proposing it for Wikipedia. A rejection of our proposal would lower the chance to get this ever implemented here. Please see my more detailed responses above under your replies. Cacycle (talk) 19:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I Agree with the point just above, that we must decide what we want now, before further proposing it to be on wikipedia. However, I disagree with much that Cacycle says. I think we want it to be as close as possible to how things are now. pdb files are image files. They should be uploadable to Commons just like other files, after expanding the file extensions to include *.pdb etc., to use on all projects, although I accept that some small molecules could be in-line. I want to use Jmol on wikiversity and it is silly to duplicate files there and on the English wikipedia, let alone all the other wikipedias. We should not have stuff on a different server. That just complicates matters and I do not think it will please the WMF techs. Whether we have inline expansion of an image to a Jmol image or a popup, really depends on testing this. Both should be only on user request. My final worry is that I do not see a big demand for this. It is being discussed by a disappointingly small number of us. I mentioned it on the Chemistry Project page. Should it be mentioned also on the Chemicals Project page? --Bduke (Discussion) 23:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Go ahead and mention a "heated discussion about implementation details for which we need more input" :-) See above for replies. Cacycle (talk) 00:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It might actually help to get it installed on Wikipedia if all possible loading options are implemented: inline, fetching from text page, and fetching from uploaded file. Cacycle (talk) 01:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The extension is already capable of all those. I am adding the ability for 'pop-in' (inline insertion upon user click on a link). I am also working on some MediaWiki templates to ease the way, some along the lines of the ChemBox.--AngelHerraez (talk) 19:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt! Although Jmol is not something critical in my field, I think it is essential for Wikipedia to have a good way to represent molecules in 3D. I suspect that one reason for the poor response from chemists is the highly technical nature of the discussion - I only understood about 20% of the above! I think Cacycle has some good points. As a technically ignorant person, I'll do my best to comment. I understand (from Blue Obelisk chats) that the reason for rejection by WMF before was the security issue. If that is resolved, then for implementation I would suggest that we use the pre-existing Chembox 3D structure as a portal to the Jmol file - that provides you with the preview image, already done for you. Ben has done loads of great fixed 3D images of small molecules, and most large biomolecules have nice graphical representations too. I would imagine the 3D image would have a tag saying "click to view Jmol - requires Javascript download" or similar - you click on the picture, and it starts up the script and loads the file. {I seem to recall Bob Hanson telling me that you'd only need to download the Jmol script to your computer once - after that it would cached somehow, is that right?) IMHO, we want something that allows users to get the benefit of the main features of Jmol when they need it, but which doesn't annoy the heck out of an average user who wants to find the boiling point of benzene via a dialup connection. Does this make sense? If I'm completely off-base, please forgive me! Walkerma (talk) 02:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

By all means, Jmol will not get in until the user requests it. Yes, it's the Jmol applet that is cached by the browser (rather uncontrollably), but still there is a sizable delay for Java to load and then for Jmol to load, unless you are within the same browser session. Warning messages for these delays can also be implemented without trouble. regarding the technicalities, I am trying to make some demo pages that anyone will be able to understand. But this demo development can be aimed in several directions, that's why I need opinions.--AngelHerraez (talk) 19:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks all for the discussion. I've inserted some specific replies above. Now that the Jmol Wiki has updated its version of MediaWiki, I will start putting there some demos of the different ways Jmol views could be implemented in WP. I will add here the link(s) later. --AngelHerraez (talk) 19:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Status?

What is the status of enabiling Jmol in Wikipedia? A suggestion has been made here to include Jmol protein structures in Gene Wiki pages. If additional lobbying support for bringing Jmol to Wikipedia would help, perhaps the WP:MCB project could provide some. Cheers. Boghog (talk) 09:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

New evolutions

Hi,

I have started working again on the Jmol extension. It's now working for new versions of MediaWiki (tested with 1.16.0). The new version doesn't require other extensions to work.

I am also in the process of simplifying greatly its use with basic syntax. The evolutions I am currently working on are the following :

• Adding a simple tag <jmolFile>Chair.cml</jmolFile>. This would create a simple link for opening a popup window with a Jmol applet displaying File:Chair.cml. Current development status can be seen here.
• Idea for later : Adding a simple tag <jmolPdb>1ALE</jmolFile>. This would create a simple link for opening a popup window with a Jmol applet displaying 1ALE from the Protein Data Bank.
• Idea for later : Adding a simple tag <jmolSmiles>CCCNC</jmolSmiles>. This would create a simple link for opening a popup window with a Jmol applet displaying the molecule corresponding to the SMILES string CCCNC.
• Idea for later : Adding a media handler that would create a simple link in File:XXX.cml page for opening a popup window with a Jmol applet displaying the molecule.

I think I can deal with the Java and PHP development, but I am looking for someone interested in helping me with other parts of this work :

• Writing the Javascript functions for creating the popup window (I have very little experience with Javascript). Even a very simple window would be useful for starting.
• Designing the popup window and its layout :
  • What kind of informations should be displayed in the window apart from the Jmol applet itself ? For example, it's possible to use Jmol to extract a lot of informations from the molecule (number of atoms, ...)
  • What commands should be directly available in the window ?
  • Should we use a default script automatically run after molecule is loaded in Jmol ?
  • Do we need to define different layouts ? For example, one layout for crystals, one layout for biochemistry, ...

--NicoV (talk) 15:48, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Great, just a few random thoughts:

• The wiki markup should be independent of the rendering program (jmol), so the tags should be <mol>, <pdb>, and <smiles>.
• There must be different display modes for different classes of molecules - doesn't jmol do this automatically?
• In the molecule window itself there should not be any text information. Isn't every molecule info available through the menus?
• The placeholder should be a preview image, not a text link. Implementing this at a basic level might be better than relying on complex Mediwiki templates.

(BTW, your examples are currently not working). Cacycle (talk) 18:58, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

A few answers:

• For the tag names, I will probably have 2 names for each (one with jmol, one without).
• Jmol doesn't decide on its own the display mode : it's fully configurable but by scripts or commands (some molecular file formats allow to have an embedded script that will be run by Jmol just after loading the file). That's also why I was talking about different layouts : we could define a different popup window or a different script run just after loading, so that the display would be different for different classes of molecules.
• Many informations can be retrieved : all are available with the scripting language, most are available with the menus. I thought that having some informations readily available in the window would be a plus, and could be used to interact with the display. I think that the contents of the molecule window should be defined by the projects that want to use them. I think I will use a mechanism similar to templates : people will have the possibility to provide templates for the molecule window so that we can have several displays depending on the kind of molecule.
• I also believe using a preview image as a placeholder is better, it's probably just a little more complex for me, so I am starting with a simple link. When the simple link works, I will work on the preview image to see if I need to use an existing image or if I can generate it automatically on Wikipedia servers directly from the molecule file.
• Yes, the basic examples are not working yet, I have started developing the <jmolFile> tag but it's not complete.

--NicoV (talk) 23:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

PS : I have just fixed the examples now (except in Chrome, trying to understand why). --NicoV (talk) 23:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)