Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Ze

Guess it is a good idea with mediation. Gabi and I have had long and heated debates, with very little exteriour participation. I believe we both have advanced our arguments and are familiar with the counter arguments during the debates. Bertilvidet 20:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've read the debates on the talk pages of the articles in question. How about to start things off you both tell me exactly what you think and we'll go from there. From the interactions that I've seen between you two, it seems like you are both very level-headed and capable of making this a productive discussion so I'm sure that we will be able to come to a conclusion. --דניאל - Danie lroc ks123 ^contribs 22:59, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bertilvidet and I disagree on two related issues:

1. I think that Ze should not include the pejorative acronym for "Zionist Entity" because it is used very rarely (only by a handful of Iranians and Syrians), and thus not worth mentioning in an encyclopedic article. It is not even mentioned here or here. But Bertilvidet thinks that the acronym should be included in Ze.

2. I think that "Zionist Entity" is a pejorative term, because it is used by Anti-Israel persons that think that saying "Israel" might mean they support the State of Israel. It is similar to someone calling another person "nigger". He doesn't mean just to say that B is a black person of African origin. It has a negative context that cannot be ignored. So while the term sounds neutral, it is really a pejorative term. Consequently, the term "Zionist entity" should redirect to "List of political epithets" which includes this term. This is also the consensus reached on the discussion page. However, Bertilvidet insists that since it means the State of Israel (although used in a negative context), then it should redirect to Israel.

This disagreement can also be summarized differently: I think that "Zionist Entity" is a term and should point to a list of similar terms, and Bertilvidet thinks that "Zionist Entity" is a country and should point to that country.

--Gabi S. 07:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've done a little research and this is what I have found:

I have found a few instances online where the initials "ZE" are used as a shorthand for "Zionist Entity," but these instances are mostly in forums where anybody can contribute and I have not found a reliable source which uses "ZE" as an actual abbreviation. If Bertilvidet can provide sources complying with WP:RS that use ZE as an acronym and not simply a shorthand, that would be helpful.
Simply because a name might be considered offensive does not necessarily mean that it should not redirect to it's implied meaning. For instance, it should be noted that Anti-Life and Anti-Choice redirect to Pro-choice and Pro-life respectively even though these can be considered pejorative terms and are even included in List of political epithets. On the other hand, some offensive terms have articles written about them (ex: nigger).

I think the question is the following: Are people who type "Zionist Entity" into Wikipedia trying to find information about Israel or are they trying to find information about the term? If they are looking for information about the entity (whether they accept it as a state or not), then it should redirect to Israel. If they are looking for information about the term (as is most likely for terms like "nigger"), then I think that a seperate article should be written about the term "Zionist Entity" which may mention that it is considered by most supporters of the State of Israel to be a pejorative term. --דניאל - Danie lroc ks123 ^contribs 00:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's been a long time since Bertilvidet contributed something to Wikipedia, and I also slowed down a little. Let's wait until we hear from him. --Gabi S. 18:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fine with me. --דניאל - Danie lroc ks123 ^contribs 18:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have taken Bertilvidet's comments on Gabi's arguments and moved them all down here so that it is clear who wrote each comment. The numbers next to Bertilvidet's comments correspond to Gabi's comment that he is commenting on. --דניאל - Danie lroc ks123 ^contribs 22:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The latter is a mirror site of Wikipedia, so it doesn't really tell us anything. I do not see how the term is pejorative per se, even though I am aware that it mostly is udes in a context rather hostile to the state of Israel. Bertilvidet 17:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the term is quite neutral. In an environnement (living in Syria for instance) where the dominating discourse does not recognize the state of Israel it might be more convenient to use the term ZE whereby one can avoid to take side on whether to recognize the state or not. So far, all the arguments I have seen about the peforativity of the term have been related to the use of the term, not the term per se.Bertilvidet 17:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is a term for a country. It would be fine for me if we write an article about the term and its use. Bertilvidet 17:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You have shown why you think that "Zionist Entity" is not a pejorative term and you suggest that an article be written about that term; however, I still do not see any evidence that it is a notable enough term to be included in Wikipedia. Could you provide some sources? --דניאל - Danie lroc ks123 ^contribs 22:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not claim that it is the world's most used acronym or as widespread as USA. However, it is occasionaly used, here are some examples from the Occident: [1], [2], [3]. I do not think that the same standards of notability need to be met in order to be listed as an acronym, as is required for an article. If someone out there comes across a text referring to ZE and wants to know what is meant, why should that person not be able to find the solution by typing ZE in Wikipedia? Bertilvidet 09:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I cannot accept those sources as enough to claim that ZE is an acronym in use anywhere. Both websites use ZE only once and as shorthand, not an acronym. It's definition is given. The Power Point presentation uses the term ZE on a slide entitled "Zionist Entity" where it is obvious what ZE is supposed to stand for. It seems unlikely to me that anybody will come accross a text referring to ZE that does not explicitly say that it means "Zionist Entity." On the other hand, I agree with Bertilvidet in that the same standards of notability are not necessary for an acronym that redirects or links to an article about a definitely notable subject. Therefore, I have an idea for a compromise. Would it be ok with both of you if the page Ze said the following:

Zionist Entity

as opposed to Bertilvidet's usual edit reading the following:

Zionist Entity, the state of Israel.

That way, it will not be as POV. Then, perhaps, an article can be written on the term Zionist Entity instead of (or maybe in addition to) having it listed in List of political epithets. That way, Ze will have a link to Zionist Entity, an article that can be written in a non-biased way, explaining that it is a term used to describe the state of Israel, often by people who do not accept the existence of the state. --דניאל - Danie lroc ks123 ^contribs 01:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the PowerPoint's first usage of ZE (page 4) does not explain what it stands for - however, it is always a good custom to give the definition of any acronym (or shorthand) you use. As for the attempted compromise I am not unsympathetic. 1) I can accept that the Ze lists "Zionist Entity", but if we can agree on a handy way to make it clear that this is another term for Israel I would prefer this. 2) I am fine about having a little article on "Zionist Entity", about the term and its use - this need however some research. Though, for reasons stated above, I will still object to label the term as an epithet and even more to redirect it to the list of epithets. Bertilvidet 10:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great to see your feedback. Give me a few days and I'll implement it as suggested. --Gabi S. 11:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Take your time, and thank you for the patience. I regret the delay in my participation, due to travels and other off-Wiki obligations. Bertilvidet 11:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just implemented all the agreed changes, and hope they stay that way (you know that these are hotly debated topics...) Thank you all - Daniel, you can close this issue. --Gabi S. 15:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Daniel, thank you so much for professional mediating - it worked (even though we didn't agree on whether ZE is a pejorative term). Gabi, thank you for dealing with our disagreement in such a constructive way (even though I have some reservations aainst the wording of the new ZE article, that I will adress when I get the time). Bertilvidet 16:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like Zionist entity is going to require some work to get it NPOV from where it is now, but that discussion can be carried out on the talk page. I'm glad that we could come to an agreement. --דניאל - Danie lroc ks123 ^contribs 18:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]