Wikipedia talk:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week

Archive 1 Archive 2

THIS TEMPLATE ON YOUR HOME PAGE

It would be much appreciated if you could place the template below on your home or discussion pages, to raise awareness and pique interest in the Collaboration. Many thanks.

The current Wikipedia:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week is Rabbi Chaim Michael Dov Weissmandl.

{{ORBCOTW}}

Deleting Candidates

If the wikipedians here vetoed my nomination for the Rabbi Nachman Kahane (whose seforim are extensively used even in the Yeshiva world) article because he is a controversial figure, then I would like the same people to veto the nomination for Avi Weiss who is even more controversial than Kahane. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 01:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Really? He didn't bring out nearly as much yelling. Also, he appears to be a good deal more notable. Finallty, WP:NBD carries the day. - CrazyRussian talk/email 04:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The complaints against Rabbi Nachman Kahane was that he is still alive and that he is Zionist. Those both apply to Avi Weiss. At least Rabbi Nachman Kahane is within the realm of what is called plain "Orthodoxy" (or at least calls himself Orthodox), albeit he is Zionist, while Avi Weiss has created his own movement called "Open Orthodox" which is actually called Conservadox by most people not affiliated with Weiss. I think that the frum oilam on wiki saw that Rabbi Kahane supported Steinsaltz and that he is the brother of Rabbi Meir Kahane and got scared and had to bash him, but the opposite should be true. He is a respected Rav in Yerushalayim and writes many essays and his seforim, Mei Menuchos, are very respected elucidations of Tosfos which all people "hold of" both in the Yeshivish world and the Hassidic world. Just Google his name. If R' Nachman Kahane goes, then for sure (kal v'chomer) Avi Weiss should go also. (I wrote this before the next comment, but then got an edit conflict)--רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 05:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

"The Hassidic world" does not exist. In my world, nobody knows him or his seforim. The fact is that 1) he affiliates with Steinsaltz, whose seforim are not quite the best and were criticized by the gedolim; and 2) he is a member of the "sanhedrin" which I personally consider to be a bunch of heretics. Just about all gedolim agreed that a sanhedrin before moshiach is totally out of the question. Just the fact that they have the chutzpah to call themselves "sanhedrin" is astonishing. I've said this before on a forum: when the Badatz, the chassidishe gedoilim recognize this "sanhedrin", so will I. And as I wrote below - concerning Avi Weiss I agree with you. --Daniel575 07:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Rabbi Moshe Halberstam of the Eidah Hacheredis was the first person to give semicha to the sanhedrin members, and supported the Sanhedrin. Since you love Google, do a Google search for Sanhedrin+Halberstam. In addition, R' Zalman Nechemiah Goldberg, R' Ovadia Yosef and R' Elyashiv are semi-supporting to fully supporting the Sanhedrin. Again, Google is your friend on this one. I wil just say that your tone is sometimes very rough and you might want to try toning it down a bit. Yossiea 13:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I have never seen any sefer written by him. Concerning Avi Weiss I agree with you. Side thought - maybe we should do some work on an article about this "sanhedrin" thing they put up, and of which Kahane is a member, IIRC. (And which has no status at all according to any respected godol/posek.) That is a notable subject. --Daniel575 05:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

FYI Sanhedrin#Attempts to re-establish the Sanhedrin in Israel discusses this organization from a generally favorable POV, and mentions Rabbi Nachman Kahane's role in it. --Shirahadasha 13:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure why all the fuss about who to delete and who to do? Little was done on Rabbi Miller and almost nothing on Rabbi Belsky. Is this turning into a POV blog instead of co-operative project? --Jayrav 17:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Nominate with date

It may be easier to glance through the page if under each subheading the rabbi's years of life and/or location are included. jnothman ^talk 07:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Lakewood yeshiva

Should Lakewood yeshiva be moved to Beth Medrash Govoha? Voting closes in a few days. Vote here: Talk:Lakewood_yeshiva#NAMING_POLL - CrazyRussian talk/email 10:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Daniel575...

...became a chosson [1]. FYI. - CrazyRussian talk/email 00:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. See Onlysimchas also. Thanks! --Daniel575 01:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Chacham Tzvi

Dear all: no work got done. Is there a problem? Have people lost interest? Nesher is on holiday and I've been tied up with a recall. If this goes on, we'll keep Chacham Tzvi on for another week - perhaps we'll get around to him after all. - CrazyRussian talk/email 02:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

See talk page there. Funny, we were thinking exactly the same at the same time, I guess. I think the reason is that aside from the JE there are simply no good sources on him. As I said on the talk page there, incorporating some of his responsa might be a good idea. --Daniel575 02:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

There was no info but the JE - no news articles on him and he is little cited in halacha journals. --Jayrav 17:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Zalman Nechemia Goldberg

Newly created page. Please add anything you know. --Daniel575 10:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

• There is an entry for him on the hebrew wiki, IIRC. Yossiea 13:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I started a little bit. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 15:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Categories of Jews

I recently removed Benjamin Disraeli, who only had a Jewish father (not a Jewish mother), had been baptized and was an active practicing Christian, from the Category:English Jews. This seems to be a controversial thing, strangely. I would like to hear the thoughts of others on the subject of people with only a Jewish father who also identify with another faith as being included in a category of Jewish people. Discuss. --Daniel575 17:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)We

Well, as I've said elsewhere, every souce that I've consulted indicates that his mother, Maria Basevi, was Jewish. Allow me to quote from Blake's biography: "The Basevis were a distinguished and talented Jewish family settled in Verona since the end of the sixteenth century. Maria's father, Naphtali, had set up in London as a merchant in 1762. He became President of the Jewish Board of Deputies in 1801." (Blake, Disraeli, 8-9) Furthermore, Isaac did not withdraw his family from the Bevis Marks synagogue until 1817, and only after a dispute (they had elected him a Parnass, he refused to serve). Isaac never formally renounced Judaism but rather remained outside organized religion until his death in 1848. It was this same year that he had his children baptized. Mackensen (talk) 14:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Having your children baptized most definitely qualifies as actively renouncing your Jewish identity. Further, the thing that seriously confuses me is the name Maria. I have never ever heard of a Jewish woman named 'Maria' who was consciously Jewish born to consciously and actively Jewish parents. What Jewish parent names his daughter Maria?! Elsewhere, it is written that Disraeli identified as a Christian. The way I understood it, only his father was ethnically Jewish. His father had Benjamin baptized as a child and Benjamin never belonged to anything Jewish, only Christian. His mother's name was Maria. I find it hard to believe that a Jewish father would call his daughter Maria. --Daniel575 16:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I can't speak for the whims and desires of an 18th-century Jewish businessman originally from Italy. The Jewishness of Maria Basevi, and indeed the entire Basevi family, is well-attested. Mackensen (talk) 16:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

And if so, he should appropriately be classified in the category. I think we're ready to put this matter to rest. - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think I can go one better and clear up the "Maria" question. Maria is a variation of Mary, which is possibly derived from Miryam. Mackensen (talk) 16:43, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Biography

Let us know your current pick and we'll alert our members! plange 05:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Shemaryahu Gurary

This was deprodded and I am about to send this person to AfD. I have already gotten his son Barry deleted. Before I do, can anyone shed light on this person's notability? Is there anything to say about him other than his marriage to the daughter of the frierdike rebbe? - CrazyRussian talk/email 14:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The whole fight over the Seforim library (Didan Notzach) is a pretty big event in Jewish and Chabad history. I do not know of any personal acheivements on his own part though. GZee 01:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, he is well known in Chabad circles, though not necessarily in a positive way. I think he is worthy of an article. In any case, now that it exists, I see no reason to delete it. --Daniel575 02:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Per talk there, we've worked it out. No AfD for the "Rebbe" Rashag - CrazyRussian talk/email 02:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yehudo Leib Krinsky

needs a lot of fixing up. FYI. - CrazyRussian talk/email 20:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Medrash Shmuel yeshiva

Newly created article. PinchasC (talk · contribs) wants to have it deleted because it is not notable enough. I strongly disagree. I removed the prod template and he immediately brought it up for deletion. This is a very famous yeshiva which has hundreds of students. It is definitely notable. I do not understand PinchasC's actions and hope that others will join in to preserve this article. --Daniel575 | (talk) 19:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Timelines

I've translated one of those nifty timelines that the hebrew wiki has on its rabbinic article pages; the one with time divided into the different eras (eg rishonim, acharonim). You can find an example here. Please spread it around, unless anyone has a serious objection. Please follow the instructions on the page. Ayinyud 20:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

awesome idea! --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 04:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yakov / Yaakov

See the article on Rav Yakov Aryeh Alter, the Gerrer Rebbe shlita. I think his name should be written as R' Yaakov, not Yakov. Anyone disagree? --Daniel575 | (talk) 21:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

agreed. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 23:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, then I'm doing it. --Daniel575 | (talk) 23:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Crz! :( --Daniel575 | (talk) 23:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Ha! :) :) - CrazyRussian talk/email 23:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I converted all the links [2]. - CrazyRussian talk/email 23:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Time to modify rules?

I think:

- opposes should be allowed. one oppose should be valued as deducting half a yes? - if the article is decent (after being listed but) before it reaches ORBCOTW, it should be placed behind those with no stub. - i do not think articles should be moved up by number of votes; if they are it should require at least six votes to be moved ahead of previous nominations... - only contributors get to vote... is this an official rule yet?

thoughts?JJ211219 04:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Transliteration of Hebrew

Everyone has to please go weigh in. Don't delay, b/c people have been debating this for a while, and I don't see anyone from this group up there. Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Hebrew). - CrazyRussian talk/email 02:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Timeline

I found this timeline on the Rambam page and thought it might be useful. What do you think?

Yossiea 18:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I translated this timeline from the hebrew wikipedia. If anyone knows how to code templates, I'd like to make one out of this. please let me know. AyinYud 20:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a request at Wikipedia:Requested_templates. nadav 06:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Ayin_Yud 10:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I added the kovim. --Shaul avrom 22:31, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Please do not add kovim- It is not used by Sofrim, Seforim, by academics, by historians, or by any standard. Wiki is not a place to invent new categoies. Yes the 16th century is ambiguous but adding a new category will not help. A quick google does not produce anyone who uses it. Nor do any standard works use the term. --Jayrav 04:11, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Edits by User:Fduffy to Hebrew Bible articles and topics

For anyone with an interest in all the articles about the Hebrew Bible; Tanakh, Torah and related subjects, User:FDuffy, who is very serious and devoted to the Biblical criticism POV (by his own admission he is a "third year theology student"), has recently resumed serious editing of Hebrew Bible articles and subjects. Please see the extensive edits via Contributions/FDuffy Your involvement, responses and edits would be important at this juncture, especially if you are capable of adding material from classical Judaic sources since most of these articles are lacking the teachings of Judaism, their obvious true source. Thank you. IZAK 11:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

What happened to User:Nesher?

Does anyone know why User:Nesher left Wikipedia so abruptly? Is anyone here still in touch with him - to ask him to return. See User talk:Nesher#Where are you?. Thanks.

Yechezkel Levenstein

The article on Yechezkel Levenstein currently is an extremely short stub. From my own attemts at expansion, I suppose he is quite notable, but I was unable to find out why exactly; neither could I locate anything resembling reliable sources. If you could help expanding the article, that would be great. Otherwise, I fear I'll have to prod it due to a lack of both demonstrated notability and sources. Thanks, Huon 19:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting names with Christian and Jewish Orthodoxy

Hi: I posted the following at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy#"Orthodoxy" alone is ambiguous. Thank you. IZAK 03:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello: This message deals with a number of issues stemming from the unclear use of the word "Orthodox" and "Orthodoxy." In the past Wikipedia has tried to avoid confusion between the names of Orthodox Judaism and Eastern Orthodox Christianity by not using the word "Orthodox" or "Orthodoxy" alone in titles when other qualifying words, such as "Church" or "Christian" (in the case of Eastern Christian Orthodoxy) or words such as "Synagogue" or "Jewish" (in the case of Orthodox Judaism, would help to qualify the usage of the name "Orthodox" or "Orthodoxy" so that any reader or editor on Wikipedia should not be confused by a title and should know from an article's or category's name whether that subject deals with either Orthodox Judaism or Eastern Orthodox Christianity (also called Orthodox Christianity). In the past there has been no objection to inserting either "church" or "Christian/ity" where the Eastern Orthodox Church articles or categories are concerned and I have tried to move in this direction. It is for this reason that I have made the nominations to rename the ambiguous categories at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 14#Orthodox Christian categories. Yet it seems that some editors are not aware of this and I am bringing this to your attention. I will cross-post this message to Wikipedia:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism and to Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism for further discussion. The implications for Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy is that it too should be renamed to Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodox Church or Wikipedia:WikiProject Eastern Orthodox Christianity to avoid any confusion with Wikipedia:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism. Sincerely, IZAK 02:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Deletion review: Liozna and Larger than Life (books)

Please see: Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 September 19#Liozna and Larger than Life (books). Thank you. IZAK 06:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Barry Gurary article

Hi: Could you please take a look at the discussion concerning Conceptual backround: Hasidic dynastic disputes in the Barry Gurary article. See Talk:Barry Gurary#Dispute of content. Thanks. IZAK 03:48, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Shanah Tovoh

BS"D

Ah guteneh yor, und ah g'mar chasimoh tovoh. --Shaul avrom 21:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Yechezkel Levenstein

almost got deleted today. Gmar chasima tova, all. - CrazyRussian talk/email 18:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Dead?

What happened to this wikiproject?

I am too busy with school, work, family and RfA - CrazyRussian talk/email 23:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Some of us are very busy during the holiday season. I thought I was going to work on the TAZ before RH. Holidays interfered.--Jayrav 00:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm also pretty busy at work, with going to simchas beis hashoevah, tishen every night (was in Dushinsky today - GREAT!). Also very busy on Dutch wikipedia and doing some small work on German wikipedia. Keeping a very close eye on my English watchlist. --Daniel575 | (talk) 00:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Busy with school. Almost finished senior year (matric)! I should be back in January. Ayin/Yud 18:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Vote to delete Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)

I have written the following to the nominator:

Meshulam: You should avoid this kind of move (the hasty nomination to delete Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)) because it's a slippery slope and could lead to the nomination for and deletion of similar articles about smaller Hasidic dynasties - by people who are not experts and don't care - with unintended consequences. Votes to delete are open to the world and you are inviting people who have no idea what this topic is about at all to cast a vote, which is very unfair and lacking insight. It seems that you may have been better off trying to add a {{merge to}} template or considered MERGING the material at some point perhaps and WAITED (at least a month!) to do so. You should also have first started a discussion at a number of places where people who know something about this topic could have given their intelligent input, such as at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism and Wikipedia talk:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week. Or you could have contacted other editors who deal with topics like this to solicit their views. This action of your is extreme and I do not condone it. I urge you to withdraw this nomination. Thank you. (I am cross-posting this message on a couple of relevant places, to get people's attention.) IZAK 10:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. This is just another example of Meshulam's extremely dictatorial stance. He does not care about the opinion of others and seems to be completely focused on an extreme 'NPOV' attitude in which everything which he considers to be true is true, and everything which he does not believe is 'OR' and 'POV'. See Neturei Karta and HaEdah HaChareidis. --Daniel575 | (talk) 15:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm curious about that guy's definition of dictatorial. Whenever he calls me that, its usually in response to me calling for a democratic vote on something. He believes it should be one way and unilaterally changes it. I believe otherwise and call it for a vote. And that makes me a dictator... Try a dictionary.--Meshulam 13:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Jews in apostasy

Jews in apostasy article needs attention. IZAK 10:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The Seven Worlds, is it Kabbalah?

Please review the The Seven Worlds article. What is fact and waht is fiction? Anyone know? IZAK 11:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The Seven WOrlds are part of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn We do currently have entries for all of their concepts. If we keep the article it has to be explained as part of the Golden Dawn and the function of the Seven in their magical system. --Jayrav 13:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Israel Friedmann needs a lot of help

- CrazyRussian talk/email 15:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Clean Up

BS"D

I'm going to get rid of nominations that are long enough, Have been there long enough, didn't get enough votes or were deemed nn enough to go through the collaboration procces. There are also old COTWs left on the nomination page. --Shaul avrom 00:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I have been thinking about the same for a while. A longer time ago already, I proposed raising the treshold from 3 to 5 votes, or even 6 or so. I think we should still do that. And limit the number of new nominations. People have to understand that there is no sense in having a list with 25 names. We need to revive this project, with a clean start. --Daniel575 | (talk) 07:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Clean up mess up

BS"D

I just found that when you go to delete one old nomination, that entire section gets wiped!

I'm sorry for any tzuris with that

--Shaul avrom 12:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Aaron, Son of the Devil

Hello all: Care to take a look at this Aaron, Son of the Devil article and see what you make of it. Does it have validity and is it being twisted in some (anti-Semitic) ways? Thanks. IZAK 04:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks fine to me, very encyclopedic. I did add a few things about it being an example of anti-Semitism. Please evaluate. --Daniel575 | (talk) 08:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks a lot. IZAK 11:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

CfD Orthodox Jewish communities

See vote at: Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 November 12#Category:Orthodox Jewish communities. Thanks. IZAK 11:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Lawrence Kelemen

new article - crz crztalk 13:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"Open Orthodoxy" & Avi Weiss

User:Shirahadasha has created an new article called "Open Orthodoxy" - about a new notion (that is "neither fish nor fowl") recently coined by Rabbi Avi Weiss. After having been asked about it, I attempted to redirect Open Orthodoxy to the Avi Weiss article and post all its content there because on it's own it's a neologism in violation of Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms, but Shirahadasha has reverted my redirect. What do you think should be done, please add your views at Talk:Open Orthodoxy. IZAK 09:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Major changes to articles by new user

I have just contacted new User:Chavatshimshon who has made some big moves in long-standing articles about Jewish topics. Please read what I wrote to him and add your expertise and intervention. Thank you. IZAK 08:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

STOP your changes NOW!

Dear Chavatshimshon: Welcome, and thank you for contacting me. Regarding your changes @ Chavatshimshon edits Please do not make any more changes or moves to Jewish articles. You are too new to Wikipedia. You are not even reverting articles correctly (by creating multiple double reverts). You are also creating duplicate articles of existing articles, which creates even more problems. The articles you are fiddling around with have been worked on for many years. You cannot move and change these articles without discussing it with the nearly one hundred known members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism; Wikipedia:WikiProject Jewish history; Wikipedia:WikiProject Jewish culture and others. I am going to ask some experienced editors, who are also admins, to examine your recent changes and to revert your moves until we can get some better idea of what it is that you are doing, and if it is going to help the Jewish and Judaism articles on Wikipedia. Stay tuned. This message is being shared with User:Jmabel; User:Jayjg; User:Jfdwolff; User:TShilo12 and User:Humus sapiens. Thank you. IZAK 08:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No BITing please. I've been helping him out some, but you gotta leave the dude some space to screw up his edits and then fix them. He's doing ok... We'll come around eventually and help him fix what he missed. This message was unnecesary. - crz crztalk 12:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No Crz you are wrong! I am very nice to newbies, in fact I have taken the time to place the {{subst:welcome}} on the talk pages of hundreds of new Wikipedians (sadly many of them are sockpuppets or one time users) but I keep on going and gladly help them and guide them to resources if they ask me. It is only in very rare cases, when I notice on "my watchlist" that a new editor is suddenly "going wild" and changing many articles and categories that have been worked on, stable, and well-established for years, suddenly changed, without any discussions on either talk pages or at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism which most Judaism editors track, that I get alarmed. I expressed my alarm and the matter was indeed brought to stop. You will notice that I contacted five editors very well acquanted with Judaism topics, and all of whom are Wikipedia admins (User:Jmabel; User:Jayjg; User:Jfdwolff; User:TShilo12 and User:Humus sapiens) and they all agreed with me. So again, I feel that you are being far too paternalistic towards me (and I wish you would stop it so that we can become true friends, I mean it), and like some other editors, I question how you can give carte blanche to a new editor who was playing havoc with the naming of long-standing articles and categories. Had he been working on one or two articles, with some modest and sensible edits, then fine, I would have gone easy on him. But in this case he was redirecting and renaming significant articles and categories in ways that were obviously not agreeable to the majority. IZAK 11:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

CfD Anti-Semitic people

Hi: See Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 November 23#Category:Anti-Semitic people. Thank you. IZAK 10:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Orthodox Judaism and feminism

Orthodox Judaism and feminism There is an article on Jewish feminism that mentions its connection with Orthodox Judaism, Jewish feminism#Orthodox Judaism and feminism, it seems to be from a Modern Orthodox perspective only, and needs to be broadened. IZAK 03:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Isaac Lichtenstein an Orthodox Jewish "rabbi" and a Christian?

The Messianic Judaism editors have been busy lately, you may want to know the following. Thanks. IZAK 19:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

• User:Inigmatus (contributions), self-described as "A mystery user with a point to be made" (wouldn't that make anything he does as automatically POV?), has added a number of features to Messianic Judaism. A month ago he evidently plagiarized [3] the Template:Judaism and created Template Messianic Judaism based on it. He also created Wikipedia:WikiProject Messianic Judaism also obviously plagiarizing the Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism page. This may mislead unsuspecting readers and there ought to be some warning or guidance about this.
• User:Stjamie (contributions) created a new article (yet again) about "Rabbi" Isaac Lichtenstein (did this person even exist or this a hoax?), as well as about Boaz Michael (is this person notable or is this a vanity page?)
  • Isaac y'sh sent off to AfD land... - crz crztalk 20:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Crz: The klal is that one does not say "y'sh" about a Jew, no matter what he did, this is an old shaila, but you don't even hear the word "y'sh" said in Judaism about Jesus, so let's not get carried away. By the way, Crz, this is the first flash of kano'us I have seen from you to date! IZAK 14:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
      • The spirit of the indefbanned Daniel575 is upon me!! :) - crz crztalk 07:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Ahh, poor Daniel575, methinks he has had too many Lechaims lately... pity that he can't control himself. IZAK 09:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Adolf Jellinek and his Christian son

What does this portrait of Adolf Jellinek say? Did rabbis all have long hair in those days?

Does anyone know what kind of "rabbi" and Torah scholar Adolf Jellinek was (Orthodox, Reform, none-of-the-above, all-of-the above?) The question is important because he had a son Georg Jellinek who supposedly became a Christian, and the article about him says that "Jellinek, the son of Adolf Jellinek, a rabbinical scholar, converted to Christianity." Making it sound that the alleged conversion of George Jellinek is somehow "enhanced" (like a "hidur mitzva - lehavdil) by the fact that he had a "rabbinical father." Anyhow, the portrait of Adolf doesn't look like it would make it into an ArtScroll anything right now :-} In addition, in the List of converts to Christianity from Judaism Georg Jellinek is listed and his picture features very prominently. If anyone has any more information on this, please contact me on my talk page. Thanks. IZAK 14:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Dispute over Category:WikiProject Messianic Judaism

I am having a difference of opinion with User:Inigmatus who insists that Category:WikiProject Messianic Judaism be a sub-category of Category:WikiProject Judaism. I have tried to edit the page [4], and have even tried a compromise of having it be part of Category:Christian and Jewish interfaith topics instead which would be perfect for it, but each time he reverts me, claiming "We make that call, not you. We're not part of "normative" Christianity either." [5] and this:" "We" is Messianics. either both Judaism and Christain categories, or none go here. We make the call, because Messianics know best what is Messianic." [6], and he adds on Category talk:WikiProject Messianic Judaism#Main categories: "Either Christian and Judaism categories go here, or they both don't. Not one or the other. Messianics do not ascribe to Chrisitanity, and Judaism is an unrelated category. I didn't put either category in, so I request both be removed, but if one is to be listed, then I request both Christianity and Judaism be listed. "We" Messianics have the right to inform the readers who "we" are affiliated with. inigmatus 04:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)" What do you think should be done? Thanks. IZAK 14:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Messianic "Halakha" etc?

On 25 October 2006 [7], User:Inigmatus moved Messianic religious practices to Messianic Halakha with the lame excuse "moved Messianic religious practices to Messianic Halakha: As discussed in prior archives, with the creation of the new Messianic Judaism template, this page can now be targeted for clean up: This entire page is better split into two articles" [8] thus opening up a whole new can of worms. This fits into this new pattern of vigorous pro-Messianic Judaism POV edits, moves, categories, projects and articles, basically without warning and ignoring the consensus that has been maintained for some time. The main problem is that the over-all thrust of the recent pro-Messianic Judaism activity is to mimic and and get as close as possible to any and all Judaism, particularly Orthodox Judaism, articles and efforts, so that anyone looking at the one will arrive at the other by sheer proximity and similarity. And I repeat this again, because of its relevance: *User:Inigmatus (contributions), self-described as "A mystery user with a point to be made" (wouldn't that make anything he does as automatically POV?), has added a number of features to Messianic Judaism. A month ago he evidently plagiarized [9] the Template:Judaism and created Template Messianic Judaism based on it. He also created Wikipedia:WikiProject Messianic Judaism also obviously plagiarizing the Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism page. This may mislead unsuspecting readers and there ought to be some warning or guidance about this. I would suggest that a new template be develpoed that would be placed on Messianic Judaism pages with a "Note: This article deals with Messianic Judaism. It does not represent normative Judaism and does not have any connection with, or official recognition from, any Jewish denominations." IZAK 03:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome the NotJudaism template

Hi: In view of the above, please see the new {{NotJudaism}} template:

Note: The subject of this article or section does not represent normative Judaism and does not have any connection with, or official recognition from, any Jewish denominations.

Feel free to use it where applicable. Thanks. IZAK 05:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Great idea!!!! Thanks! Only... what is the correct name? --Daniel575 | (talk) 09:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see, someone deleted it. Guess that's quickly reverted. Recreating it now. --Daniel575 | (talk) 09:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

And it was redeleted. Please do not recreate it again. The template is divisive, was deleted under WP:CSD#T1. Proto::type 10:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

And recreated. Follow normal procedure. --Daniel575 | (talk) 10:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It was again deleted by another antisemitic British akum. We will have to wait for Crz. In the meantime I can recover from my anger. B"H getting mad at an akum is not such a big aveirah. --Daniel575 | (talk) 11:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Wait for crz? Crz would have redeleted it himself... Good thing the akum did it for him. - crz crztalk 15:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Paschal Lamb article needed

Would anyone like to start an article about the Korban Pesach? Since right now all there is, is that Paschal Lamb disambig page that splits off to Jesus... It would be a nice start for Pesach too and help the Passover-related articles. Thanks. IZAK 09:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

One could start simply by spinning off the material that's currently in Passover. Best, --Shirahadasha 12:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

New article: Aron Leib Steinman

- crz crztalk 18:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Wrong: it already exists at: Aharon Shteinman. Thanks. IZAK 01:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Category:Palestinian rabbis

What does one make of the new Category:Palestinian rabbis and Category:Talmud rabbis in Palestine, should they be renamed to something like Category:Rabbis of ancient Palestine? so that it does not connect, and become confused with, the way the word "Palestinian" is used today (meaning the very unJewish modern Arab Palestinians, who have nothing to do with these rabbis!) Thanks. IZAK 09:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• Hi: I have created a solution: See Category:Rabbis of the Land of Israel and Category:Talmud rabbis of the Land of Israel. Thank you. IZAK 14:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Not using "Palestine" or "Palestinian" for Talmud and rabbis to avoid confusion

Note: Many articles about the rabbis of the Talmud and Mishnah are derived from the archaic Jewish Encyclopedia, published between 1901-1906, over one hundred years ago (when the Middle East was still under the thumb of the Ottoman Turks) and which used the archaic expressions "Palestine" when referring to the Land of Israel, and to the Jews living in the areas of the historical Land of Israel as "Palestinians." This is a big mistake that requires constant attention and correction, especially when copying and editing articles from the Jewish Encyclopedia or from similarly archaic sources such as Easton's Bible Dictionary (1897). At this time, no-one uses the term/s "Palestinian/s" (in relation to anything associated with Jews or the land they lived in and which they regarded as their homeland) nor by any type of conventional Jewish scholarship, particularly at the present time when the label "Palestinian" is almost entirely identified with the Palestinian Arabs who are mostly Muslims. Finally, kindly take note that the name Palestinian Talmud is also not used and it redirects to the conventional term Jerusalem Talmud used in Jewish scholarship. Thank you. IZAK 13:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Not using "Palestine" or "Palestinian" for Talmud and rabbis to avoid confusion

Note: Many articles about the rabbis of the Talmud and Mishnah are derived from the archaic Jewish Encyclopedia, published between 1901-1906, over one hundred years ago (when the Middle East was still under the thumb of the Ottoman Turks) and which used the archaic expressions "Palestine" when referring to the Land of Israel, and to the Jews living in the areas of the historical Land of Israel as "Palestinians." This is a big mistake that requires constant attention and correction, especially when copying and editing articles from the Jewish Encyclopedia or from similarly archaic sources such as Easton's Bible Dictionary (1897). At this time, no-one uses the term/s "Palestinian/s" (in relation to anything associated with Jews or the land they lived in and which they regarded as their homeland) nor by any type of conventional Jewish scholarship, particularly at the present time when the label "Palestinian" is almost entirely identified with the Palestinian Arabs who are mostly Muslims. Finally, kindly take note that the name Palestinian Talmud is also not used and it redirects to the conventional term Jerusalem Talmud used in Jewish scholarship. Thank you. IZAK 13:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Not using "Palestine" or "Palestinian" for Talmud and rabbis

Makes sense, I'll try to remember. However, there was a period when everyone referred to the land of Israel as Palestine. Therefore, to say something like "in 1940 Shlomo Pines emigrated to Israel" would appear to be an anachronism. Don't we have to use the term "Palestine" during a certain period for historical accuracy? What is this period? From Roman conquest until 1948? Thanks. Dfass 15:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Dfass: Note: The term "Land of Israel" is an old one of Biblical origin, whereas the name "Palestine" is considered offensive by many Jews because it was coined by the Romans after they crushed the Jews of Judea-- and needless to say today it refers exclusively to the Arab Palestinians and never to Jews. Note also that the "Land of Israel" article is not the same as the "Israel" article because the latter refers to the modern post-1948 Jewish state. My main concern was about rabbis from the Mishnaic and Talmudic eras, up until about a hundred years ago being called "Palestinians" on Wikipedia as a follow-through from the many articles that have been copied and pasted from the old Jewish Encyclopedia and which collectively create the wrong impression. Such are the hazards of relying on dated information, long-discarded terminology, and unsuitable writing and communication styles. Wikipedia as a modern encyclopedia should not be relying on archaic terms such as "Palestinian rabbis" that could potentially cause grave misunderstanding. I think that from the time of the British Mandate of Palestine, also shortened to "the British Mandate" and sometimes "Palestine," that Jews were associated with those terms from 1923 until 1948 when the modern State of Israel was declared. I hope that you have noted that I am most definitely NOT saying that whenever the Jewish Encyclopedia uses the term "Palestine" that the single word "Israel" should be used -- obviously I do not mean that because when Israel is used alone on Wikipedia it refers to the MODERN State of Israel only. On the other hand, what I am saying is that when the word "Palestine" is used in archaic sources that predate modern Israel, and when writing about Judaic topics that relate to the Middle Ages, Talmudic, or Biblical times, then the better, more accurate, less controversial term for Wikipedia to use is "Land of Israel" which is historically what the Jewish people, and everyone else in academic life, have and do still call it. Hope I have clarified myself, and thanks for caring. IZAK 12:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
  • OK, I think I get the drift. I will pay attention to it in the future. (Don't be so down on the Jewish Encyclopedia though! It's an incredible work, written by some tremendous scholars. I think these articles significantly raise the quality of Wikipedia, whether their English is somewhat archaic or not. If you compare a JE-borrowed Wikipedia article to one written by "the masses," you can't but be struck by the difference in quality and scholarship. The typical Jewish Wikipedian (myself included) is not capable of producing articles of anything like that caliber. Most Wikipedians cannot even be bothered to cite the sources for the couple of factoids they manage to dredge up from their memory of 10th grade.) Thanks again for the clarification. Dfass 15:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Hi Dfass: I am not down on the old Jewish Encyclopedia at all, and I fully agree with you that it is a more than masterly work of scholarship. But is was written in the context of the culture of over a hundred years ago as a product of the nineteenth century! My specific concern at this stage was only about how the meaning and application of the word/s "Palestine" and "Palestinian" are getting "lost in the cut-and-paste process" because one hundred years ago, "Palestinian" was used as an academic adjective as for example, together with "rabbis" ("Palestinian rabbi/s") or the Talmud ("Palestinian Talmud"). Up until 1948 the words "Palestine" and "Palestinians" still had application/s to Jews because of the existaence of the British Mandate of Palestine until 1948 in the territories of historically Jewish Land of Israel. Since then, the name "Palestine" and "Palestinians" has shed any connection to Jews and the modern Jewish State of Israel which was set up in contradistinction to an Arab Palestine. Particularly since the rise of the PLO (the Palestine Liberation Organization), following the 1967 Six-Day War, the term and notion of "Palestine" and "Palestinians" has become thoroughly and exclusively connected with the Arab Palestinians to the point that no-one (not in politics, academics, the media, religion, etc) associates the name "Palestine" and "Palestinians" with the Jews or Judaism, so that it can safely be said that the notion of a "Palestinian Jew" is an archaic anachronistic discarded notion. So when cutting and pasting articles from the one hundred year old Jewish Encyclopedia, one should not fall into a "time warp trap" by blindly pasting articles from it without some sensible updates, and not to inadvertantly recreate and foster terminology for Jews and Jewish Israelis that neither they nor the world accepts or recognizes. One needs to be conscious that the term "Land of Israel" is a well-established name that has survived for a long time and is still the preferred term of choice when speaking in modern terms, so that Jews not be confused with Arabs and vice versa. By speaking of the Category:Rabbis of the Land of Israel, meaning rabbis (or any Jews) associated with a historic geographic area, one also avoids problems such as calling pre-1948 rabbis or people "Israelites" -- used only for people in the Biblical era or "Israelis" -- which refers to citizens of the modern State of Israel. Thanks for your input. IZAK 07:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion

Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion FYI: Hi Tomer! A Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion has asserted itself in the Korban article. The project indicates that it is an umbrella project for all of religion and that the current religion projects are subprojects of it, yet its member directory lists only six members. Where is the project coming from? Is it a broadbased project, a very small group with a very big reach, or what? If you know some background or some of its people, would be much appreciated. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Shira: I noticed this comment. Their assertion is outrageous and false and should be rejected and disputed to the full. There is no "supreme council of religion" on Wikipedia and there never will be. Each religion has its experts and contributors on Wikipedia and none of them will ever tolerate interference from outside busy-bodies. Judging by their user pages, the members of this "religion" project are obviously coming from a Christian POV and seems they now wish to "double dip," pretty funny actually. See my notice on that page, below. Thanks, and may the Lights of Chanukah dispel all ignorance and darkness. IZAK 10:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

NOTICE and OBJECTIONS to WikiProject Religion vs. Judaism

Hi: Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion#Judaism. Thanks, IZAK 10:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

NOTICE and OBJECTIONS:

1. No-one has the right to take upon themselves to be the controlling "project" for every religion on Earth!
2. Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism has been, and shall remain an independent project and will not accept interference in its work based on the assertion that editors not familiar with Judaism's traditions have a self-appointed "right" to interfere with Judaism-related articles by mere dint of being members of a "religion" project.
3. So far, as of 12/21/06 the mere six members of this project, are mostly Christian, (as self-described on their user pages) and raises the question, why don't they do their work in Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity (81 members as of 12/21/06)? How can a project with six members "pass judgment" on other projects with one hundred and twenty four members?
4. What will members of other projects, such as Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam (64 members as of 12/21/06) think and react when "religion project" editors will advise what's best for Islam-related articles or not?
5. Note: Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism adheres to WP:NPOV and is one of the oldest Wikipedia projects with over one hundred and twenty members (as of 12/21/06), a number of whom are respected sysops as well, highly knowledgeable about many matters relating to Category:Jews and Judaism.
6. It would not be advisable for anyone to interfere with Judaism-related articles or Hebrew Bible-related topics that ignores the broad based consensus and general agreement that exists between Jewishly-oriented editors of Judaic articles, many of which touch upon Jews because being Jewish includes being both a part of Judaism as well as being part of an ethnicity, and a project on "religion" alone cannot and does not have the scope to touch upon issues that effects not just Jews and Judaism, but also Israel and Jewish history, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Jewish history (with 33 members as of 12/21/06) and a broad range of related issues and projects, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Jewish culture (19 members as of 12/21/06) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel (23 members as of 12/21/06).
7. Finally, Wikipedia is not the forum to create a de facto neo-"ecumenical project" which is only bound to cause confusion and resentment and will result in confusion and chaos and inevitabley violate Wikipedia:No original research; Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought; and Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms.

Thank you for taking this matter seriously. IZAK 09:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Response to NOTICE and OBJECTIONS to WikiProject Religion vs. Judaism

Hi: It is very important that you see the points and the response from User:Badbilltucker about his aims at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#NOTICE and OBJECTIONS to WikiProject Religion vs. Judaism ASAP. Have a Happy Chanukah! IZAK 15:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"Three pilgrim festivals" vs. "Three pilgrimage festivals"

Question: What should be the name for the Shalosh Regalim: the Three pilgrim festivals or the Three pilgrimage festivals? Please see the discussion at Talk:Three pilgrimage festivals#Name. Thanks you. IZAK 17:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)