Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)/nobel

Moved here from the Village Pump --Kevin Murray 23:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

(I inserted the word "Peace" into the section title, since that's the only Nobel Prize where this is an issue. Other Nobel prize nominations are handled by Nobel Committee panels of experts, and aren't open to outsiders) --MiguelMunoz 08:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Several biographies include claims of Nobel Prize nominations. (Al Gore, Sheila Watt-Cloutier, Alfred H. Love, Maksim Kovalevsky, SOS Children's Villages Canada, Hugh Harman, Ding Zilin, Tookie Williams, and Rush Limbaugh to name a few.)

Since the Nobel Committee does not release the names of nominees for 50 years, none of these claims are verifiable (the Nobel Committee neither confirms nor denies any nominations). The fact of whether the nomination was actually made is not verifiable, hence it's against policy to include any of them. Therefore I propose that all of these Nobel Prize nominations included in the bios need to go. —Doug Bell ^talk 12:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Struck out names of people nominated more than 50 years ago. —Doug Bell ^talk 12:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Did you check those against the Nobel Committee's official list of nominees? Just because a nomination is claimed to have happened 50 years ago doesn't verify that it did.The Monster 00:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

If the Nobel Committee are the only people who know the names of the nominees (and therefore the only way to get verifiable information regarding who the nominees are), then this is an obvious case of what's "impossible to verify", and therefore must go, per WP:V. --`/aksha 12:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, obviously I agree, but the subject is debated contentiously and separately at each bio, so I'm hoping a centralized discussion on this can establish a uniform consensus on the matter. —Doug Bell ^talk 12:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

On ones such as Al Gore and Rush Limbaugh, we do have published evidence that they were nominated, simply not by the Nobel committee. As long as that fact is made clear in the articles, I fail to see the problem. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No, we have published claims that they were nominated. Not the same thing as evidence. —Doug Bell ^talk 12:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

This comes from a lack of understanding as to how the Nobel nomination process works, I think. Regardless of one's knowledge of it, though, as long as the facts of the case (that it's been claimed by Such-and-Such that So-and-So was nominated or something similar) are presented accurately, there's no problem. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with mentioning Nobel Prize nomination rumors if they are clearly marked as rumors and there are multiple reliable sources that claim somebody was nominated. A similar example is "Christoph Cardinal Schönborn was considered a potential successor of John Paul II": there was considerable media speculation about all the people on the List of papabili in the 2005 papal conclave, but there are no records of the votes in the conclave itself, so we can't reliably say who the real candidates were other than "all cardinals". In any case, WP:V tells us not to say "John Doe was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Pathological Nanoarcheology" (which is unverifiable and unfalsifiable for 50 years), but "The New York Times claimed that John Doe was nominated for the ..., but that was neither confirmed nor denied by the Nobel Committee", which can be verified. These rumors are of course a lot less notable than a verified nomination would be, so unless they attracted considerable media attention, they should not be included. Kusma (討論) 12:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I like others didn't have a complete understanding of how the nominations are made. So I would say that it now makes sense to remove the claim that they were nominated. However, if reliable sources such as The Globe and Mail report that Coutier and Gore were nominated then it should be mentioned in that way. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 13:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

My two cents is that if an editor can provide a reliable source verifying that someone was nominated then the information should stay. However, I can see the other side of the argument that we can't absolutely verify (with evidence beyond a reasonable doubt) that a nomination actually happened until the Nobel Committee releases the name in fifty years. However, I still go back to my original position. However, I believe should apply the "clear and convincing evidence" standard. We talk on Wikipedia all the time about various movies or actors getting Oscar talk before the Osacar nominations are actually given. We also talk about movies and actors being the leading contender after the nomination but before the actual announcement on Oscar night--as long as we have a reliable source to back up such speculation. In the Oscar situation we can't absolutely verify any of this talk until the actual nominations are announced or the winner is announced. But if we quote a reliable source, CNN, for example stating that "Clint Eastwood is the leading contender", then I don't see a problem. Basically the Nobel candidates should be treated just as we do MVPs for sports or Presidential candidates in politics. There has been much Wikipedian ink spilled on Barack Obama and Dr. Condi Rice, even though neither of them are President (yet). I always err on the side of giving a reader more info than less, as long as it is verifiable with a reliable source, and then let the reader decide.----Getaway 13:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Having thought about this I re-did the entry for Sheila Watt-Cloutier. Would something like this be OK? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 14:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that is fine. The statement as rewritten is verifiable. —Doug Bell ^talk 16:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Rumors aren't noteworthy, even if they are clearly marked as rumors. Rumors are often put out by PR departments. Including them amounts to giving people free publicity. They're (arguably) acceptable for news stories, but they have no place in an encyclopedia. --MiguelMunoz 08:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Yaksha writes "If the Nobel Committee are the only people who know the names of the nominees ... then this is an obvious case of what's "impossible to verify", and therefore must go" But they're not the only people who know. The people making the nomination also know, and are free to announce this. So much of this comes down to the credibility of the announcer. --MiguelMunoz 08:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

"Each year the respective Nobel Committees send individual invitations to thousands of members of academies, university professors, scientists from numerous countries, previous Nobel Laureates, members of parliamentary assemblies and others, asking them to submit candidates for the Nobel Prizes for the coming year," [[1]] and therefore persons who may not be bound by statutes of the Nobel Foundation may claim to have nominated someone for a prize. And in the words of the Nobel Foundation's own web site, "Well, either it's just a rumour, or someone among the invited nominators has leaked information. Since the nominations are kept secret for 50 years, you'll have to wait until then to find out." [[2]] Cryptonymius 15:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that nominations made by eligible parties as reported by reputable sources are OK for inclusion. I believe that those nominations which are submitted by ineligible parties but reported by reputable sources should either be excluded or included only with strong mention that the nomination is invalid or made by an ineligible party. Obviously, claims with no reputable sources should be excluded entirely. I take a neutral stance on whether they should be included or not as a general guideline. Vassyana 15:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I think stating the nomination as a claim of a nomination, tying the claim to reliable sources, and including a caveat that the claim cannot be verified is acceptable. This creates a statement in the article which is itself verifiable. —Doug Bell ^talk 16:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

If a wikipedian is stating that the claim cannot be verified, that would be in direct conflict with verifiability and so not acceptable. If a reliable source however can be *quoted* as stating that "...so and so says the claim cannot be verified..." that may pass. If the claim is tied to reliable sources and by tied, I mean quoted from (which is typical in the case of controversial claims), that would probably be sufficient to assert the statement in the article. Wjhonson 17:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

An example wording might be "Nobel Prize nominations are not released for 50 years and prior to their release the Nobel Committee neither confirms nor denies any claims of nominations." That is a verifiable statement that puts the claim of a nomination in its proper context. A reliable source, preferrably from the person or organization claiming to have made the nomination, would be needed to make the claim at all, but that source is not a verification that the nomination was in fact made. That fact is not verifiable as the information is not released by the Nobel Committee and there is no other means of verifying the claim short of that. —Doug Bell ^talk 17:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

What cannot be verified is whether the Nobel Committee considered the nomination "legitimate". What can be verified, and therefore included in an article is the organizations that claim to have nominated the person. I believe that without such attribution, the statement "X has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize" is not verifiable, and therefore non-encyclopedic. In contrast, "X was nominated by Y for the Nobel Peace Prize" with a link to the official statement by Y to that effect, is verifiable. I don't think we need any specific disclaimer so much as the specific link I show here, which takes the reader to the page with the rules on it.The Monster 00:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I was one of the people who wanted it removed from the Al Gore article (actually for me the main problem was that it was being mentioned in the opening paragraph of the article). As others have said, the Nobel committee doesn't release who was nominated until 50 years later, and in their rules they discourage people from announcing their nominations. I ask this purely out of ignorance -- has anyone who has been previously announced as a nominee ever won? Evil Monkey - Hello 20:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Over the years I have made several sweeps through Wikipedia and removed scores of unsourced assertions of Peace Prize nominations. I have done so for several reasons. As noted above, nominations are usually unverifiable unless older than 50 years. The exceptions are instances in which the nominators have publicized their nominations which then became the subject of media coverage. (Bob Geldof, Stanley Williams, etc.) Another important reason is that being nominated is not an exceptional honor. Over a hundred people are nominated annually, the pool of potential nominators is vast, and there are no eligibility requirements (other than being alive). An exception there would be the nomination by the American Friends Society (Quakers), who make an annual nomination and do so with such care that it is something of an honor in its own right. So my general view is that nominations should not be included unless the nomination claims are sourced and exceptional. -Will Beback · † · 22:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Will are you sure that it's not a honour? A quick look at the nominators list and then at 39th Canadian Parliament, United Kingdom general election, 2005 and 110th United States Congress would indicate that in those three countries alone there are over 1000 possible nominators just from elected officials. Expand that world wide and include the other people who get nomination papers and that is indeed a vast pool. Yet this large group can't manage to come up with more than 200 nominations. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 10:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

How in the world can we even guess at how many nominations there are? Where are you getting the information on the number of nominations—since they don't tell us who was nominated, I'm surprised they would say how many...where? —Doug Bell ^talk 10:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

What we do know is that the Nobel committee, in their own words, send out "thousands" of invitations to nominate someone. Even with considerable overlaps of opinion, it stands to reason that hundreds of distinct people get nominated in each category each year. Thus I would argue that it is not a notable honor to be nominated, let alone to be rumored to be nominated. --mglg_(talk) 19:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh I agree it's not notable. I'm just thinking that the numbers are MUCH higher than several hundred. Probably for exactly this type of "I've been nominated" self-promotion. —Doug Bell ^talk 19:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to search for the link, but the Nobel Committee announces the number of nominations received. In recent years it's been around 120. Among others, I've removed nomination claims from the article about a philanthropic car dealer from Ohio and a faith healing dietitian from Brazil. Since any national legislator, and any humanities professor may make a nomination, the only honor is that one person feels the nominee is worth nominating. -Will Beback · † · 20:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's the Nobel Committee's page on the nomination process.[3] They say they've been getting 140 nominations annually in recent years. -Will Beback · † · 20:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I see that Will already linked to the same place I got my info from. mglg, in this case we are talking only about the Peace prize and the links provided reflect that. Will, I would agree that if the persons only claim to notability is the nomination then not only should the claim be removed but the article on that person should be deleted as well. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 21:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the Peace Prize has an entirely different nomination procedure from the other prizes, which have nominating committees composed of experts. -Will Beback · † · 22:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Number of nominations: 2005, 199; 2006, 191; 2007 (so far), 167.[4] —Mike 23:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Nobel prize nominations aren't noteworthy for a category, template, etc and just add clutter. In the prose of a bio it's not a cut and dried issue. If outside sources have made a big deal of it - well, then, same as any fact that sources makes a big deal of. I just hope we have an an article to wikilink the claim that points out how arbitrary and non-notable it is to be nominated. (IMHO, anybody who tries to gain positive spin by proclaiming themselves a nominee deserves to be ridiculed) SchmuckyTheCat 20:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if they should be included, but I'd like to suggest one disqualifying standard. Nominations should clearly not be included if they're obviously self-serving. For example, Rush Limbaugh sits on the board of an organization that nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize. It's not worth asking if they are even qualified to nominate. To include this nomination in a Wikipedia article would be acting like an arm of the Rush Limbaugh PR department. --MiguelMunoz 07:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree there. If there is a conflict of interest in the nomination then the article should include it and point that out. Similar to the way that it's done already in the article. The reader can then draw their own conclusions as to the validity of the nomination. As to it being seen as "...acting like an arm of the Rush Limbaugh PR department.", it's a statment of a claim made by the fondation and not an endorsment of it by Wikipedia. In fact the inclusion of his and others "nominations" has an educational purpose. The reader can now find out how the Nobel nominations are made and that someone announcing it does not always make it so. I saw in the paper that Watt-Cloutier was nominted but not until this came up did I understand how the nominations work. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 10:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

A few points I'd like to make: first of all, this talk about whether or not we can know who has been nominated is getting a bit silly. If Landmark Legal Grp. has issued a press release saying that they've nominated Limbaugh, then it is certainly fair to say that they made such an announcement. If it is to be removed from the artile it should be based on issues of significance (is this any more notable than if I myself sent such a letter? Does it carry any weight?) not on verifiability issues. Can we 100% prove that they actually sent the nomination to the committee? No. But do we have any reason to doubt that they did? Do we have 100% certainty of anything written in wikipedia? Perhaps they sent the letter, but it got lost in the mail; can we prove the Nobel committee received it? We can take this verifiability issue to an extreme, but let's not.

Secondly, we need to establish the facts on what is or is not a vaild nomination. The Web Site seems to say that anyone who fits any of the criteria listed can nominate any person. So, it seems, a Professor of Islamic Studies at the University of Tehran can nominate Ahmadinejad. Any member of the national assembly of Guinea-Bissau can nomiate his brother Charlie. If this is the case there must be hundreds of thousands of people eligible to make nominations. 200 or so a year seems pretty small. Yet this seems to contradict what website says here : "Nomination to the Nobel Peace Prize is by invitation only. The Nobel Committee sends confidential forms to persons who are competent and qualified to nominate". This basically seems to shoot down Limbaugh's nom as invalid. What about Gore's? Relable news sources have stated that Gore's nom was made by qualified individuals (I think that much is pretty certain) but was their opinion invited? and if not, is it still valid? In any case, I see nothing wrong with keeping mentions on both pages, if phrased properly. A few of us have done quite a bit of tweaking of the Limbaugh article to keep the mention in perspective (not "Limbaugh was nominated..." but "Landmark announced its unsolicited nomination of...", mentioning Limbaugh's connection with the organization, etc.) Admittedly Gore's nom has received much more press attention than Limbaugh's, likely because Gore may be a serious contender and Limbaugh almost certainly isn't, though I'm sure the dittoheads will just point it out as another example of liberal bias in the media. In any case, the mention in Limbaugh's article, far from serving as an arm of the Rush promotional machine in my mind, works to dispel the idea that seems to be floating around the blogoshpere that Limbaugh is in the running for the Nobel Prize this year. -R. fiend 16:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Jon Stewart had a hilarious take on this notion of elevating a dubious question to the status of a debatable point. He ends by saying "Is your Mother a Whore? I'm just asking." His point is that, simply by answering the question with a firm "no" is still dignifying the question. Limbaugh's publicist can easily maneuver somebody to announce a ridiculous Nobel Peace Prize nomination, but that doesn't mean it belongs in an encyclopedia. If we include it, then soon people are debating whether or not Limbaugh's nomination is valid, and people will take sides, and soon it seems natural to use "Limbaugh" and "Nobel Prize" in the same sentence. This becomes a victory for the publicist, even though many people scoff at the nomination. If you read the Limbaugh discussion page, some people are arguing that the nomination is valid! Wikipedia should not be a rumor mill, even if it discredits the rumors. Limbaugh's "nomination" is self-serving hogwash. We do him the enormous favor of dignifying the hogwash by including it. If you still don't agree, ask yourself this: Before the Landmark Foundation nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize, Al Franken called Rush Limbaugh a Big Fat Idiot. Should we precede the section about his Nobel Prize nomination with another section calling him a big fat idiot? Do we present both sides of the question and let the readers decide if he's a big fat idiot? --MiguelMunoz 05:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The preceding comments highlight exactly why nominations are not notable. Some people think the nomination of Rush Limbaugh is absurd and politically motivated. Others think the same of Al Gore's nomination. I am not taking a position on this, but it could be argued that neither one has had any impact on world peace (or any of the criteria listed for the awarding of the prize). It could also be argued that the public announcement of Gore's nomination (in violation of the recommended practice of confidential nominations) was also for political purposes (to bring publicity upon the nominator for his own benefit). But ultimately it is irrelevant what the general public thinks of the worthiness of an individual for the prize. We only know the following: 1. It is inherently notable when someone wins a Nobel Prize. 2. The nomination process is so loose that nominations are left to the individual subjective assessment of an incredibly large pool of people. The small number of nominations received doesn't change that fact. 3. There is no way to know whether or not a nominee is ever seriously "in the running" for the prize.

We on Wikipedia should not be making subjective judgments about which nominations are worthy and which are not. We should simply be deciding whether or not they are notable and verifiable. I think they are not notable. Some in this discussion have argued that nominations are notable because of the significant publicity given to them. But this is circular: The public gives nominations attention because it mistakenly believes they are notable (as I and many others here believed before looking into it). If Wikipedia decides they are notable because the public does, it will only reinforce the public view that they are notable. If everybody in the world knew all the facts around nominations, it is likely that most would not find them notable.--JrStonehenge 16:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

While I feel that most Nobel Peace Prize nominations are not notable, I do feel that some are and should be included. For example, as user Beback pointed out above, nominations by the American Friends Service Committee are notable and deserve mention. So would nominations by any other previous Nobel Peace Prize winners. -- MiguelMunoz 05:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

please note that i have removed the nomination sections on the limbaugh and gore pages. i doubt it will stay that way for long, but i would implore all of you to please help me keep such silliness off wikipedia. gore could possibly win and then i would agree that his nomination and WIN would be notable. until then its ridiculous. limbaugh sits on the board of the group that supposedly nominated him. is it really notable that his friends nominated him for something we would all be surprised if he won? my friends think i am a good guy, too. if they didnt i doubt they would be my friends. i would also like to note that hitler, mussolini and stalin also received nominations. does anyone really think that fact should be included on their respective wikipedia pages? of course not. nominations (inherently unverified) should not be included. thanks. Brendan19 10:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

how about resolving this? please respond by simply saying include or exclude. this could settle the debate on all bios.

my vote: exclude. thanks --Brendan19 23:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Other proposal

If the mention of a nomination for a Nobel prize is mentioned in an article, the nominating body (institution, fan club... whatever) has to be identified under references with pertinent information. All others will be deleted ASAP Alf^Photoman 23:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)