Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Canadian stations)

RfC on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Irish stations)

There's an RfC on adopting the proposed guideline for transport stations, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Irish stations), here. Interested editors are asked to weigh in.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:44, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

GO station naming

With the outcome of WP:NYCSRFC, I think it would be a good time to gather a consensus on Go Transit's article names. I will be using options A and B of the previous vote on this page.

A: Retain the Xxx GO Station format for GO Transit stations, and incorporate into the CANSTATION guideline
B: Move GO Transit stations to the Xxx station format, with parenthetical disambiguation as necessary, and incorporate into the CANSTATION guideline Cards84664 00:35, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

!Votes

• B. Bring it in line with the rest of the world. Parenthetical was should only be used where needed, not preemptively, and no reason to mention the system unless using it for disambiguation. oknazevad (talk) 01:00, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

  @Oknazevad: inclusion of "GO" in the article title is not for no reason (or for premature disambiguation), it's a proper part of the station's name! Reliable sources consistently use the current format and moving all these pages would make the titles less recognizable to those familiar with the subject. BLAIXX 16:04, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

• B, makes the most sense and is in line with general standards. Radagast (talk) 01:09, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
• B per oknazevad. The current format is outdated and awkward. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 01:44, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

  @Pi.1415926535: awkward as it may be, the current format reflects both the official and common name of these train stations. I think we need a stronger argument to go against Wikipedia's article titles policy. BLAIXX 18:29, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

• B for simplicity and consistency. This was discussed back in 2017 and it never came to a conclusion. Clearly option "B" better reflects what the rest of the country's stations are doing.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:59, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
• B is the way to GO. AlgaeGraphix (talk) 03:55, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
• Only disambiguate when necessary, I also don't understand why we don't use "Xxx Go Station" since if "station" is part of the name it should have a capital "S" and if it isn't part of the name it should be in brackets, namely "XX Go (station) per WP:NCRIVER but the UK (and others it seems) for some reason don't capitalize "station". Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:38, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I'd like to point out that for almost all of the GO Transit stations, the format "Xxx GO Station" is the WP:COMMONNAME and is constantly used by reliable sources. I think WP:CANSTATION is very useful as a fallback when there is some ambiguity but I think we can stick to the basic article titling policy for GO Transit. Consider Burlington GO Station: a Google News search shows dozens of hits from a variety of news sources. I really don't see how moving this page to Burlington station (or Burlington station (Ontario) in this case) would make it easier for the reader to find the page they are looking for? BLAIXX 18:22, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

The parenthetical disambiguation implies the existence of identically named stations elsewhere. Cards84664 19:02, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Parenthetical disambiguation is irrelevant to my point. Consider instead "Bronte GO Station". That is the official name and the common name that would be most recognizable to Wikipedia readers. I don't see any reason why Bronte station would be a better title for that article? BLAIXX 21:13, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

• This topic recieved quite a few votes in the opening hours but unfortunately discussion seems to have trailed off and I don't think we've reached WP:CONSENSUS yet. Most notably, no one in favour of changing the longstanding titles has defended their position with cited sources or by referencing existing Wikipedia policy. I think this is critical for this discussion because the popular suggestion is directly conflicting with the article titling policy (as I have mentioned above). There are also a number of edge cases (like Hamilton GO Centre) that I hope we can flesh out before moving any pages or updating WP:CANSTATION. Thanks everyone! BLAIXX 16:59, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  Good idea to close, it's been almost a week with no additional user input. @Oknazevad: @Radagast: @Pi.1415926535: @Cuchullain: @AlgaeGraphix: @Crouch, Swale: Is there anything else any of you would like to add before I request closure by an uninvolved admin? Cards84664 17:37, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  I still think that there's a problem with B (and other similar cases) in that it suggests "station" isn't part of the name, if this is true, "station" should be in brackets, namely "Xxx (station)" or if it is part of the name it should be in upper case namely "Xxx Station". Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:01, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  @Crouch, Swale: "Xxx (station)" has been completely phased out after a decade of debates. Current consensus is the "xxx station" format, and unique cases following common names, like Pennsylvania Station (New York City). Please see prior discussions listed at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (US stations). Cards84664 18:20, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  In which case the "S" should be capitalized, similar to Warwick (district)/Warwick District (WP:UKDISTRICTS) and Inn (river)/River Thames (WP:NCRIVER). Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:36, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  "Generally, Canadian stations should take the form of "[NAME] station", e.g. Burrard station or Carling station, followed by parenthetical disambiguation if required. The word "station" should generally be lowercase, per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization)". Cards84664 18:47, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  NCC says that proper nouns are capitalized which they are if there not in brackets. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:04, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• A (note change). It would have been better if Blaixx had pointed out earlier and more forcefully that Xxx GO Station is both the common and official name. Also, (Cards84664), more input should be solicited before closing. AlgaeGraphix (talk) 19:15, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I still feel B is the better option. It's in use in several of the stations I checked, for example Bronte and Ajax, and in at least some cases the "xxx Go station" construction seems to be a descriptive use, as one might say "Xxx train station" or "Xxx subway station" without that necessarily being the best name.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:03, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  I know Google News hits are not the be-all and end-all, but repeating your searches with the current Wikipedia titles (Bronte GO and Ajax GO) shows at least 20 times more results! Some of those might be duplicates or not top-tier sources but regardless, there is clearly a strong preference of news agencies using "Xxx GO".

  It is true CBC and some other agencies often use "the Xxx GO station" (here is an example where they use both) but "GO" is always there. This is in contrast to Toronto subway stations where CBC is happy to use "Bloor-Yonge station" rather than "Bloor-Yonge subway station" or "Bloor-Yonge TTC station". There is an argument to be had that the 'S' in 'Station' should be decapitalized, but I feel very strongly that "GO" is part of the common name. BLAIXX 16:41, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

  So you think this template looks better too? Cards84664 23:41, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Preceding station	GO Transit			Following station
Danforth GO towards Union Station		Lakeshore East		Eglinton GO towards Oshawa

Let's try to figure out the article titles first, then we discuss how to format the navboxes (if anyone has a problem with how it is now). BLAIXX 01:03, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• A - The common name is "Xxx Go station", common names should always be used. The exception is Union, Downsview Park, Kennedy, or Kipling, which I don't ever hear referred to as "GO", just "station". Mattximus (talk) 00:22, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Just as an example, I would say "I have a friend who lives next to the Danforth Go station" or "I have a friend who lives by Kipling station". Those I would argue are the common names. Mattximus (talk) 00:25, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

@Mattximus: Can you clarify? Proposal B is to remove "GO" from the article titles. BLAIXX 01:08, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

oops type the wrong letter, fixed. Mattximus (talk) 02:42, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Comment: Note that "GO" should always be capitalized; it's derived from Goverment of Ontario. AlgaeGraphix (talk) 22:54, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

• A, I'll officially state my position as A, per my comments and replies in this section. My preference would be to closer match the wording of WP:USSTATION which emphasizes that articles should be titled by their common name. I'd then suggest adding a note that in most cases, GO Transit train stations include "GO" in their common names. BLAIXX 17:09, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
• Tangential comment but does anyone know why there are two articles for the Kipling station? There is Kipling GO Station and Kipling station. They are integrated and we could just call it the Kipling station, we should do the same for Union station which is also integrated. The common name is definitely "Kipling station" for locals. Mattximus (talk) 23:03, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

  Good point, I'd be in favour of merging the two Kipling pages together like Downsview Park station. As for Union, the subway station is connected to the train station building but they are not the same structure (the subway station is located under Front Street). The train station article is also quite long so I can see why the subway part is split off. BLAIXX 00:36, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• Sure that makes sense, and is consistent. The naming should follow Kipling station though because that's the common name. Mattximus (talk) 15:54, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• A as "GO" appears to be part of both the common and official names of these stations, based on looking at results for a random sample. Thryduulf (talk) 12:57, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
• A All GO stations are officially named X GO Station. It also helps with disambiguation. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 00:11, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

References

Canadian (train) and station names

Has there been discussion regarding the use of the word "station" to refer to the flag stops along the route of the Canadian? Most of these have no physical building at their location (ie. it's a sign post next to the track) and "station" would appear to be a misnomer. See list at Template:VIA Canadian. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 05:22, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Not much discussion thus far. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 01:28, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Viarail.ca seems to have four categories: "Manned station", "Unstaffed station", "Shelter", and "Sign post". I will be updating the infoboxes with these categories. Although "station" may not be a totally accurate way of describing a sign post, Viarail.ca refers to them as such, so I think it should stay for now. 162 etc. (talk) 17:19, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Update: I have completed these infoboxes for the Canadian. Will probably do the rest of the Via network at some point if somebody doesn't beat me to it. 162 etc. (talk) 18:22, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 01:52, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Update 2: Completed all stations that currently are on a Via schedule. 162 etc. (talk) 21:04, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 01:52, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Update 3: As was pointed out during a recent edit by User:RickyCourtney, the "Structure" line in the infobox is not the right spot for this info. I still think this is good info to include, but it should instead be under "Status". Will start updating the articles at some point. 162 etc. (talk) 06:38, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

@162 etc.@Johnny Au I would highly recommend changing the wording from "Manned station" to "Staffed station". "Manned" is gendered, whereas "Staffed" is gender neutral. Furthermore, "Staffed station" would match your other category of "Unstaffed station". RickyCourtney (talk) 17:43, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

While I don't disagree with the sentiment, this wording is the one viarail.ca uses. Unless there is a different reliable source that uses something else, these descriptors should remain as is. 162 etc. (talk) 17:50, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Just because Via uses that descriptor, doesn't mean that Wikipedia must. There is TONS of precedent for Wikipedia pages using a non-official (but still very correct) descriptor. RickyCourtney (talk) 18:25, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

This is true, and I don't think that "staffed" in this case would necessarily be WP:OR. That being said, I don't think there is a compelling reason not to use the descriptor that viarail.ca uses. Ultimately, Wikipedia should reflect what reliable sources say, and this proposed rewording does not make the article more accurate. 162 etc. (talk) 18:55, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

My proposed rewording would be more gender inclusive and more consistent with other countries terminology, while remaining just as accurate. RickyCourtney (talk) 19:04, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

We 100% do not have to follow "what sources say" for something like vocabulary choice. RickyCourtney is correct in his assessment of the label and also makes the point for consistency with "unstaffed station". Let's move to "staffed/unstaffed" terminology. —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:06, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

To be clear, we're not talking about renaming articles, just changing how we describe the stations within the articles? I think it's a fairly well settled principle (on the English-language Wikipedia anyway) to use station or railway station and not "stop", "halt", or similar. Mackensen (talk) 11:33, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

@Mackensen No, these descriptors are in the status parameter of the infobox. RickyCourtney (talk) 15:49, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Another comment… the manual of style (MOS:GNL) states: “Use gender-neutral language – avoiding the generic he and generic she, for example – where this can be done with clarity and precision.” This seems like a clear case where we can make this change with clarity and precision. RickyCourtney (talk) 14:11, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Not saying you're wrong

but the linked policy says that proper names should be capitalized in full. The example station itself has a large photograph of the name including the word station. Where is the actual local consensus that railways stations should ignore the general policy and specifically lower-case the stations? I'm sure it's out there somewhere but it isn't covered by the current link to WP:NCCAPS, which states the exact opposite. — LlywelynII 05:31, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

There's this, but that creates a circular path since it just shrugs its shoulders at naming conventions and tells curious editors to come see what you've worked out here. — LlywelynII 05:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

This naming convention is consistent with the linked policy: Generally, Canadian stations should take the form of "[NAME] station"... The word "station" should generally be lowercase, per WP:NCCAPS, unless it is part of a proper name where sources consistently capitalise. It seems like you don't have a problem with the naming convention as written, you just think "Burrard Station" is the proper name. Is that correct? BLAIXX 16:09, 24 January 2024 (UTC)