Wikipedia talk:Naming conflict/Archive 3
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First things first
Why is this even separate from Wikipedia:Naming conventions? I'm sure that there's some old conflict that drove the creation of this separate from WP:NC, but is that actually a good idea? Most of this seems like a rehashing (and slightly forked version of) what is already in the "main" guideline.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 05:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that it would be better to have this on the policy page, rather than editors being referred to two pages that seem slightly inconsistent. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- There seem to be two things going on. First, this is pointed at the Macedonia affair, and not just in the text under dispute. More importantly, however, these ideas were being worked out in 2005; some of this duplication is because the ideas here were adopted elsewhere. Real duplication should be taken out, and then we'll see what we have. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, all this naming advice is way too confused - it seems to have been written by people whose aim was not to be clear, but to win arguments (or rather to compromise between competing desires to win arguments). I would put all the general guidance on one page (WP:Naming conventions, though I would rename that to "WP:Article naming" or something, because it's not really conventions), and move all the specific stuff (i.e. about articles in particular subject areas - this often really is conventions) off into specialized pages. And have a navigation template so people can find their way around these pages, like the Manual of Style one.--Kotniski (talk) 08:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- The policy page is quite terse, and restricted to principles, th goals most people agree on without qualifications. This is largely advice on how to satisfy the principles - a logically separate thing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know if I agree - the point of nameconv is to resolve disputes on naming. Here we have a guideline on the subject of resolving disputes on naming. Policy shouldn't say anything like "it is policy that Italy is called Italy", or "User:Bob is banned from the Italy article", or "an aircraft should be named ...". Policy is not specific to some subset of our articles - a policy sets out the principles, and guidelines expand on them for certain specific cases. M 20:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- Do we really need Geographic name servers. Check geographic name servers such as the NGIA GNS server at http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp to be policy? It's advice, and not particularly good advice at that; compare WP:NCGN#BGN. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- That's exactly the sort of thing I'm getting at. The reason that so many of those statements with specific advice seem to keep cropping up is simple coat racking. The separate pages exist, with separate sections for specific areas within them, so people naturally start adding more examples and exceptions. Let's just cut all of that off now, and roll everything back into WP:NC. We'll inevitably end up removing some point or other because it'll be overlooked, but primarily we'll just be getting rid of a ton of redundancy. Nothing is set in stone regardless, so even if it turns out bad or something is missed, we can simply fix that later on.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 05:37, 1 September 2009 (UTC)- I disagree on the structural point. In general, we should give advice - not this particular advice - and keep it in guidelines; even with the flaws of GeoNET, if it helps some editors, it's worth the electrons to mention it. But we should not make it policy; policy should not have details which may be changed any time a department in Washington gets a new website. But I think we may have wandered from this page - when it is unprotected, do by all means seek out and remove redundancy and we'll see what's left. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- I'm kind of asking a more general question. Why have 20 different Naming convention guidelines/policies to begin with? This discussion is about this page, but the thought process could easily and correctly be conflated to the others as well, with little change. I see one or two real distinctions between the general gist of all of them, and then a morass of exceptions and specific recommendations that are a real mess when you get right to it. You know better then most others here that I was ready to go in the opposite direction recently, Sep. After I was reversed and we talked about it some though, along with the general idea behind WP:PROJPOL, I've basically come full circle on this. There are a couple of real distinctions that need to be made (Japanese romanization springs immediately to mind), but there's no reason those narrow issues couldn't be discussed in a sub-section on the page. Maybe it's just me as well, but I don't find the distinctions between policy and guidelines to be that well defined. There are parts of all of these naming convention documents that either are or attempt to be policy, and a large part that is "only" guidance. That's not going to change by and splits or mergers that I can see.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 14:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)- Most of them exist because they're about different subjects. GeoNET doesn't particularly belong here; but it should be discussed in WP:NCGN because it's only useful for geographic names. This page should have generally useful advice - and if it were restricted to that and to advice which is actually useful, it would be significantly shorter than it is. I don't see advice on the same subject in several places as a major problem - but then I am often glad to find any advice at all. As long as we take guidelines as advice - and not as rules, the mark of an editor who hasn't caught on - more advice than necessary is better than less advice than necessary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- eh... I see where you're coming from, but it really depends on the advice being offered. More advice can sometimes lead instead to a rigidity in attitudes, which ends up causing more trouble then it solves. You mentioned taking these as advice instead of rules, which I completely agree with, but I think that half of the problem with these is that there are so many specified exceptions that the whole system is perceived as a set of rules which users must abide by. That very attitude is apparent on this talk page, as a matter of fact.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 16:15, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- eh... I see where you're coming from, but it really depends on the advice being offered. More advice can sometimes lead instead to a rigidity in attitudes, which ends up causing more trouble then it solves. You mentioned taking these as advice instead of rules, which I completely agree with, but I think that half of the problem with these is that there are so many specified exceptions that the whole system is perceived as a set of rules which users must abide by. That very attitude is apparent on this talk page, as a matter of fact.
- Most of them exist because they're about different subjects. GeoNET doesn't particularly belong here; but it should be discussed in WP:NCGN because it's only useful for geographic names. This page should have generally useful advice - and if it were restricted to that and to advice which is actually useful, it would be significantly shorter than it is. I don't see advice on the same subject in several places as a major problem - but then I am often glad to find any advice at all. As long as we take guidelines as advice - and not as rules, the mark of an editor who hasn't caught on - more advice than necessary is better than less advice than necessary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- I'm kind of asking a more general question. Why have 20 different Naming convention guidelines/policies to begin with? This discussion is about this page, but the thought process could easily and correctly be conflated to the others as well, with little change. I see one or two real distinctions between the general gist of all of them, and then a morass of exceptions and specific recommendations that are a real mess when you get right to it. You know better then most others here that I was ready to go in the opposite direction recently, Sep. After I was reversed and we talked about it some though, along with the general idea behind WP:PROJPOL, I've basically come full circle on this. There are a couple of real distinctions that need to be made (Japanese romanization springs immediately to mind), but there's no reason those narrow issues couldn't be discussed in a sub-section on the page. Maybe it's just me as well, but I don't find the distinctions between policy and guidelines to be that well defined. There are parts of all of these naming convention documents that either are or attempt to be policy, and a large part that is "only" guidance. That's not going to change by and splits or mergers that I can see.
- I disagree on the structural point. In general, we should give advice - not this particular advice - and keep it in guidelines; even with the flaws of GeoNET, if it helps some editors, it's worth the electrons to mention it. But we should not make it policy; policy should not have details which may be changed any time a department in Washington gets a new website. But I think we may have wandered from this page - when it is unprotected, do by all means seek out and remove redundancy and we'll see what's left. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- That's exactly the sort of thing I'm getting at. The reason that so many of those statements with specific advice seem to keep cropping up is simple coat racking. The separate pages exist, with separate sections for specific areas within them, so people naturally start adding more examples and exceptions. Let's just cut all of that off now, and roll everything back into WP:NC. We'll inevitably end up removing some point or other because it'll be overlooked, but primarily we'll just be getting rid of a ton of redundancy. Nothing is set in stone regardless, so even if it turns out bad or something is missed, we can simply fix that later on.
- Do we really need Geographic name servers. Check geographic name servers such as the NGIA GNS server at http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp to be policy? It's advice, and not particularly good advice at that; compare WP:NCGN#BGN. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know if I agree - the point of nameconv is to resolve disputes on naming. Here we have a guideline on the subject of resolving disputes on naming. Policy shouldn't say anything like "it is policy that Italy is called Italy", or "User:Bob is banned from the Italy article", or "an aircraft should be named ...". Policy is not specific to some subset of our articles - a policy sets out the principles, and guidelines expand on them for certain specific cases. M 20:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Mormons
If Mormon is reliable on this, and they have a source, both The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Mormon are self-identifying names; indeed the LDS so strongly identify themselves with it that they sought to trademark it.
This offers two characteristic problems with the proposal to use self-identifying names; too many subjects have two, and the difference between them matters. The other problem is what if several instutions self-identify with the same name? As here: the trademark office turned down the application because the name, like aspirin, had become generic - it meant any follower of Joseph Smith, including all the other Churches which claim that identity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- So also: what is the self-identifying name of the United Kingdom?
- All Baptists self-identify as Baptists - are all of the several Conferences to be called by that name? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- You are talking from a position of ignorance; never a good proposition. Many of the groups within the Latter Day Saint movement reject the name Mormon and always have. There is not a single group that uses Mormon as its name; they all have a preferred name for their church. Such is the same for Baptists; they each have a name for their church. It is like calling people idiots. Yes, it composes a large group, but they each have a name regardless of how stupid they might be. --StormRider 18:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- The full self-identifying name of the United Kingdom is "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The shorter, or Commonly-used version of this name is United Kingdom.
- Baptists may vaguely self-identify as "Baptists". They also more vaguely self-identify as Christians. However this is irrelevant, since we are not talking about the people, but the organisations. What do the organisations self-identify as? See the long List of Baptist sub-denominations. Examples are Southern Baptist Convention, American Baptist Association, and Baptist Union of Great Britain. Incidentally the latter is a purely self-identifying name since it covers only England and some of Wales, rather than all of Great Britain. Xandar 22:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- Precisely; there are two self-identifying names, quite different in length, elegance, and precision. (With a little thought, I'm sure Xandar can come up with half-a-dozen more.) Even these two differ in implication: United Kingdom was a self-identifying name before 1922; the others would differ more. A preference for self-identifying names leaves us no way to choose between them; and very often all the plausible candidates are, or can be described as, self-identifying names. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)