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Saltire representing Ireland 1801-1922

Surprised to see this in the IMOS. Can someone point me to the logic behind this, or the discussion involved. As far as I know, this was never used as an official flag (although was part of the Union Flag). Was it flown during those times above official buildings in Ireland or anything? Thanks. --HighKing (talk) 13:54, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I've tracked down the discussion to here and I recall participating, but I don't believe it should be used as an "official" flag for that period. There's no evidence for such usage and I suspect the Union flag may have been flown above official buildings during that period. I suggest we remove this flag from the IMOS until we can track down something more substantial by way of evidence or a source. --HighKing (talk) 14:04, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
So based on what you're saying, it should be replaced with the Union Flag? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 14:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm saying it should be replaced with whatever the "official" flag was for the time. And one good indicator is to ask which flag was flown on top of official buildings. If that's the Union Flag, then that's the correct one. If there's evidence that is was the Saltire, then leave as is. I'm not pushing any particular answer, just asking the question. --HighKing (talk) 15:35, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
I dont think the Union Flag represented Ireland at the time. It represented the UK, of which the island of Ireland was a constituent part. Sure, the Union Flag was the official flag and was flown on buildings, but that is no reason to use it to represent Ireland. It wasnt flown then to represent Ireland. It was flown to represent the UK. I'd suggest that it might be better not to use a flag at all. Head-it-behind (talk) 17:03, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Hmmmm...I understand your reasoning but I'm not sure we're looking at the same question :-) So there's two questions:
  • Did Ireland have a flag between 1801 and 1922, one that was used to officially represent Ireland
  • What flag was flown over official buildings, etc?
I would hazard a guess that the Union Flag was officially flown, and that there was no official flag for Ireland. Also, this response indicates that the Union Flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland, and I imagine the same reply would have been given had the question been asked 100 years earlier. --HighKing (talk) 18:35, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Some clarification on the legal status of the Union flag from A Birrell. RashersTierney (talk) 19:41, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Fascinating context. Not sure though how to interpret it in the context of which flag we should use to represent Ireland between those dates. Thoughts? --HighKing (talk) 02:06, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Flag of Ireland
I would draw attention to what John Redmond said in the debate that Rashers has linked to: "I will tell you what Ireland will do. She will do what every Colony in the Empire does to-day. Go to Canada, and you will find there the Union Jack the symbol of the Empire, but you will find a flag of Canada alongside it. Go to Australia, and you will find the Union Jack there. I have sat in great Australian gatherings with the Union Jack over my head, and side by side with it the Australian flag, the blue flag with the Southern Cross upon it. Go where you will throughout the Empire, and you will find these flags". The Union Flag was not the official flag of Ireland at that time - there was no official flag - but there was a flag of Ireland: the Green harp flag. Either that flag should be used, or no flag at all. Scolaire (talk) 08:42, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
No, looking at the image description, that's a nationalist banner and was not the flag of Ireland at the time. Based on the issue of whether or not the saltire was the flag or not, if it wasn't then by default the official flag of Ireland would have been the Union Flag so that should be used. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:58, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
And by the same logic, the Union Flag should also be used as the flag of Yorkshire. It was never the flag of Ireland. It was the flag of a country that Ireland was part of. Head-it-behind (talk) 15:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Yorkshire was never a country. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:18, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Gods own country, I believe ..... Have you never heard of Deira? Head-it-behind (talk) 12:29, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
That's God's own county (although why The Lord would be interested specifically in yorkshire, I don't know) And I would ask have you ever heard of Ascension Island? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:27, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
County or Country? country I believe .... ascension Island? Yes. Why? Head-it-behind (talk) 14:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Are we any closer to resolving this? If we've no references, we should leave it blank. Anyone find any references? Can't say I've had any luck. Strange how difficult this is.... --HighKing (talk) 02:16, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

We should not leave it blank. If the saltire was not the flag used then by default the Union flag would be used instead. For example Akrotiri and Dhekelia and Ascension Island don't have flags of their own so by default they use the Union Flag. There is no difference to the principle between those and Ireland when it was part of the UK. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:44, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
No difference? Except that Ireland had a population of multiple millions whilst the 2 in question have a current population of 20k or so combined? Except that Ireland had an independent identity both before and after the time period in question. Except that the Government of Ascension has adopted the Union Flag as an interim measure until their own is agreed? Except that both are British overseas territories, while Ireland was part of the UK? Except that neither have a nationality? Yeah sure, no difference. Head-it-behind (talk) 11:49, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
I said no difference to the principle, which is that if a part of the UK or it's colonies doesn't have a flag then it is reasonable to assume that they would therefore use the Union flag by default. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:15, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
I believe it is best to find a reference, and not rely on assumptions if possible. Assumptions can be inexact or incorrect and using *any* flag without a reference isn't a high standard. --HighKing (talk) 16:31, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

It seems we've discussed 3 choices.

  • Use the Saltire
  • Use the Union Flag
  • Use nothing (blank)

To date, we've no references for the first two (and I'm find that hard to fathom. Where are the references? I thought there'd be loads!). So for now, I propose we change it to blank. But if references are found, I'm happy to support the referenced flag instead. Thoughts? --HighKing (talk) 13:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I've managed to find this which seems to say that we've been doing it all wrong since the beginning. Apparently according to the collection of books that it mentions, it says that the flag of Ireland at the time was simply a Green Ensign. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 16:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Nah - an ensign is a national flag, sure, but only flown at sea. It's a good find though. But equally we have the Blue Ensign and a Red Ensign, etc. --HighKing (talk) 17:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
I know it's called an a ensign at sea but that doesn't nessecarily mean that it wasn't used as the flag of Ireland, after all most of the BOTs use Blue Ensigns as their national flag. I think if those books listed in the source I provided list the Green Ensign as the national flag, then it should be used as such. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:56, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Standard of the Kingdom of Ireland

Did the Royal Standard of Ireland not fly from seat of British governance in Ireland during the Union years? The green ensign in such a non-naval usage i highly doubt considering its association with Irish republicanism and nationalism, seeing as the United Irishmen only introduced it in such a manner not even a decade before the Act of Union. Mabuska (talk) 18:29, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Why would republicans use a flag with a Union Flag on it? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 18:40, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
?? I mean non-naval version that is simply a green flag with a harp. Mabuska (talk) 19:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Maybe i'm wrong, but regardless Ireland has only one official flag of any kind during this period - that of it's sovereign state. Mabuska (talk) 19:13, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

So now we have five choices, four of which can not be verifiably shown by reliable sources to be the flag of Ireland. I am forced to agree with HighKing that it should be left blank. Ireland was not the United Kingdom, so the United Kingdom flag never uniquely represented Ireland. The same is true of Ascension Island today, but I'm not about to get involved in articles that are not in my own area of interest. Scolaire (talk) 21:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Hang on, are you saying that Ireland was not part of the UK at that time? Furthermore when you say flags don't have refs, The Green Ensign (the one with the Union flag, to be specific) does as the source has been provided. And even furthermore, are you suggesting that although there is a source that one was the flag of Ireland at that time, you'd choose to ignore it anyway? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 21:54, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Nope. Read it again. I said that Ireland was not the United Kingdom, not that Ireland was not part of the United Kingdom. The Union Flag is and always was the flag of the United Kingdom, not of any constituent country or colony per se. I also said that the flags can not be verifiably shown by reliable sources to be the flag of Ireland. If the source you are referring to is CRW Flags retail store in Glen Burnie, Maryland, then all I can say is QED. Scolaire (talk) 11:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
The point is that the source I provided listed offline sources that Ireland did use a particular flag at that time. Besides even if this is not taken as read from that, then by default (Following examples of A&D and AI given) the Union Flag should be used. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:00, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
There's a very good passage in the reference you provided (let's assume for now that it is reliable). In a communication between the flag manufacturers Hounsell and the lord lieutenant of Ireland in 1871 over the correct flag for Ireland, there's a couple of key points made which are relevant:
  • A print of the Green Ensign was sent to the lord lieutenant of Ireland. His reply, dated 24 April 1872, stated that 'the Green Ensign is not correct' and was accompanied by a paper from Sir J. Barnard-Burke, Ulster King of Arms who wrote a report on the matter.
  • Accompanying the report was a drawing of the Union Flag, which was described as the flag of Ireland since 1801, and a drawing of a yellow harp on a blue field which was annotated, 'There is no separate Standard for Ireland: the above is that part of the Standard of the United Kingdom which is borne for Ireland'.
  • As a result of this communication a letter was sent to Hounsell's on 14 May 1872 stating 'that in view of the report, no separate flag for Ireland should be inserted in the Flag Book'.
The reference also states Documents in the Public Record Office that show that the Green Ensign was a real, though unofficial, flag which was flown by Irish vessels in the 19th century and further down some examples are given.
In light of the report, it seems that there was no separate Flag or Standard for Ireland for this period of time. The Union Flag was the offical flag for the UK, not for any individual country, so on that basis it seems we should leave this blank. I have to say I'm surprised... --HighKing (talk) 16:44, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
On the contrary, it clearly says that the Union Flag was described as the flag of Ireland then. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Where does it say that? --HighKing (talk) 17:43, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
"...the Union Flag, which was described as the flag of Ireland since 1801," The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:54, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
That's not part of the quotations and appears to be paraphrasing. The part I've used above is an actual quote, and doesn't state it in quite that way. And the conclusion wasn't to use the Union Flag to represent Ireland, but to use none at all - which is what happened. If a book from those times didn't have a flag representing Ireland, what makes you think that we should here? Doesn't make sense to me. --HighKing (talk) 13:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Seriously though, do you want the Union Jack article (redirected from Union Flag) to begin "The Union Flag, commonly known as the Union Jack, was the flag of Ireland since 1801"? It wasn't the flag of Ireland. It was and is, according to the article, "a flag with an official or semi-official status in some Commonwealth realms". It's just not the same thing! Either there was a flag of Ireland or there wasn't. All the evidence from this discussion is that there wasn't. Scolaire (talk) 20:30, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
No, I'd like it to say was used as the flag of Ireland from 1801-1922. I would say that a flag that had official status in that part of the UK, was the flag by default. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 20:38, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
You'd like the opening sentence to say that? Really? Scolaire (talk) 20:42, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Maybe, but considering that Ireland was not a sovereign state then and was part of the UK, I doubt it would have much support on the Union Jack page to put that in the opening sentence. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 20:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Once again, QED. If the Union Jack editors don't consider it important, why should we? Scolaire (talk) 21:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
As I've said above, if a book from those times didn't have a flag representing Ireland after some documented research, what makes you think that we should here? Doesn't make sense to me. --HighKing (talk) 13:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I have started a new discussion on the "Flag" section in general below. Scolaire (talk) 16:22, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Arbitary break

I don't know how helpful this will be, but this book, published in 1881, describes the saltire as the "national flag" of Ireland. Formerip (talk) 19:19, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

It's published in 1881 and states and what has come to be called the flag of Ireland is a red saltire on a white field. But Ireland, strictly speaking, never till lately had a national flag. Now I've no idea what span of time "lately" refers to, but it is significant that the next part of the book talks about the Union Flag. His choice of words "what has come to be called" doesn't sound like there's anything official about the usage of the flag. In fact, nowhere does the author state that the flag is official. But interesting reading, a good book and a good find. I like the parts talking about the fimbriation on the Union flag (didn't know that). --HighKing (talk) 20:16, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
The time period we're talking about is the twentieth century, when photography was commonplace, and the nineteenth century, when illustrated magazines and newspapers were in fashion. Many, many of these images are available on the web. Has anybody ever seen a photograph of a public building or a public event in which a "flag of Ireland" is shown? If not, what is the point of hunting up obscure references saying somebody once thought this or that might have been called the "flag of Ireland"? If there are no modern reliable published sources to answer the question, it is not the purpose of Wikipedia, still less of IMOS, to do what is essentially original research. Scolaire (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Point taken. I think we've given this more than enough time to see if there was a "Flag of Ireland" for this period, and it appears that there was not. The Union Flag was the flag for the United Kingdom, not Ireland. For the reasons discussed above, I agree with you that the current practice of using the Saltire for this period shouldn't continue. The preference for this period is to use nothing. --HighKing (talk) 17:13, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
The range of articles where there is likely to be any call to use a flag icon for Ireland for the relevant period is pretty narrow though. Wouldn't this suggested standard (scuse the pun) - essentially that the flag must be shown to be the official flag of state rather than the generally accepted national flag lead to the absurd position where every flag in an article such as 1883 Home Nations Championship would have to be a Union Flag? Formerip (talk) 17:36, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
True, but there's a difference here. There's many references that show the national flags for England or Scotland. There's none for Ireland. Substituting Saint Patrick's Saltire isn't correct. As would substituting the Union Flag. --HighKing (talk) 20:17, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't see that it would. There's long been agreement that sports like football are an exception to the normal standards on official flags. Generally we use the flag which the association or the overall governing body uses e.g. the Ulster banner for Northern Ireland in articles like UEFA_Euro_2012_qualifying_Group_C or 2009_PDC_World_Darts_Championship. I'd expect that in this situation we would do similar by using the saltire, unless someone showed that a different flag was used. Valenciano (talk) 19:14, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
So, if sports articles are excluded, what would be an example of the type of article where this dilemma arises? And would all the home nations be represented by a Union Flag, or just Ireland? Formerip (talk) 19:35, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
This is precisely why I began the new discussion at the bottom of the page. A manual of style shouldn't be about trying to guess what type of article a dilemma might hypothetically arise and then legislating for it. Where an actual situation arises on an actual article, it should be discussed on the article talk page. That's what the talk pages are there for. The whole historical flag part of that section should be removed from IMOS forthwith. It has never resolved any problem, and it is continuing to cause one here. Scolaire (talk) 20:07, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Whilst Ireland is not the United Kingdom, the Union Flag still represented Ireland as it was part of the UK at the time regardless of regional flags. I feel that certain editors just want to avoid having the Union Flag representing Ireland for personal reasons. Also a naval flag is a very poor argument to use for justification for using a flag to represent a region or country considering how naval flags do not tend to match up all the time to the state/national flag for example look at the British ensign - no Union Flag as the basis of it there is there other than a quarter? Mabuska (talk) 15:58, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your continued input, Mabuska. Scolaire (talk) 19:38, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
@Mabuska, despite it's popular name the "green ensign" was used as a regular flag. Like the calling the UK flag the "Union Jack", where "jack" refers to a maritime flag, even though the speaker is referring to the national flag. --RA (talk) 00:19, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Background on the choice of flags

A little background to the choice of these flags. The first thing is to say give up on trying to find a "flag of Ireland". There never has been one — and there may never be one. The second is that the intention of these is not to prescribe what was the flag of Ireland was (there was none) but what to use for items like icons in info boxes, etc..

In the case of the Kingdom of Ireland and the Lordship of Ireland, the symbols shown are the the arms of the Lordship and of the Kingdom displayed as a banner. This is the nearest that exists to a "flag". In the case of Southern Ireland, it is the banner of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. I'm not so sure of the reasoning behind that. These are all used in Template:Country data Ireland, which feeds into Template:Flagicon.

In the case of Ireland 1801—1922, the choice of the saltire is owing to its use in the Union Flag. Remember, Ireland has never had a flag. Neither the green flag nor the saltire are official. However, source can be found to support both (unofficially) during the period. The saltire is a little bit more "official" since it appeared on the union flag. The green flag is a little less "official" since as has rebel overtones. An example of an article following this style is Ireland national football team (1882–1950). I don't necessarily support that choice. I'm just describing the logic. --RA (talk) 00:15, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi RA, that's pretty much what I've also concluded in terms of the reasoning/logic behind current usage on WP. But I don't believe we should continue the practice. If we can't provide some references for the choice of flag, for whatever period, I believe it is wrong and misleading to substitute a "guess". --HighKing (talk) 12:49, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually the closest the island has had to a flag is that of the Saltire - it's use predates that of its incorporation into the Union Flag and can be found in various places to this day - for example look at the county crests of File:County_Cork.gif and File:Ferm_arms.png and also the town of Coleraine amongst several other places. Mabuska (talk) 15:59, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

No need to name historic county?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result was No change. The proposal failed to gain any support. Scolaire (talk) 09:43, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Given that for 40 years counties in Northern Ireland have not served as local government divisions or postal descriptors, and that the administrative counties in the Republic exclude some of the historic counties and include some new counties, it is not necessary in every case to identify a location by reference to one of the 32 historic counties, particularly where that county is administratively obsolete. It should be acceptable to use instead the name of the current local government division. (This could be especially useful in getting around the issues relating to the one historic county whose name is still the subject of a dispute.) Brocach (talk) 02:09, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

  • Current consensus:
  • When entering counties into Wikipedia use the full term County, not Co or Co.. The use of Co. is generally localised to Ireland and not always understood by the global community. For example, write 'County Galway', not Co. Galway
  • Proposed:
  • It is not necessary to situate places in Ireland by reference to one of the 32 historic counties. If the place in question is now part of a different local government district - a council area in Northern Ireland, or a new administrative county in the Republic - that may be used instead. When entering counties into Wikipedia use the full term County, not Co or Co.. The use of Co. is generally localised to Ireland and England, and is not always understood by the global community. For example, write 'County Galway', not 'Co. Galway'.
Instead of addressing a current 'problem', this looks like a charter for disputes regarding how certain locations are to be described. Rather than producing clarity, it gives no indication as to how potential disagreement is to be resolved. These 'bold edits' (1, 2) to the MOS also introduce England into the mix, for no good reason. This MOS is exclusively intended for Ireland-related issues. Stating that a similar convention exists elsewhere serves no useful purpose, and may well be misunderstood to extend the remit of this MOS. I presume the 'historic county' referred to above is Tipperary. There has been a campaign on this project for some time by a small clique to promote the terms 'South Tipperary' and 'North Tipperary' as address locators, to the point where a topic ban has been proposed wrt a particular editor, who has been pursuing this 'logic' to the point of disruption. The fact is that locations in that county are almost invariably given as 'County Tipperary' in the real world. This was also the case when the county was administered as 'North Riding' and 'South Riding', which terms were not widely used as address identifiers. Lastly, I am strongly of the view that radical changes to this MOS should be proposed here first, and should under no circumstances be reverted if challenged, that is WP:0RR should apply per the page hatnote. RashersTierney (talk) 12:44, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps a topic ban should be proposed for those cliques that demote legally defined terms and oppose logic. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:00, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Support Away with the exclusive tyranny of the so-called "traditional" 32 counties. Time for Wikipedians to enter the 1st century. There is a new dispensation. Also, saying "may" is not the same as saying "must". Nor does it preclude both. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:56, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose I see no need for this. The current wording does not say we have to put in the old county names. How about saying something on the lines of 'I believe the current wording should be changed because ...2 Where you fill in the ... with some good reason and then perhaps I'll look at it again. Perhaps you have some good reason that I can't make out. It would certainly be much easier if people explained their reasons rather than having to try and figure them out ourselves. Dmcq (talk) 16:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Forgive the shorthand and oblique comments. It's just that most of us, cliques and otherwise, have been around the block a few times on this topic. The unstated assumption is that there is a group of editors that wish to pretend that Ireland is still a 32 county state, that Northern Ireland is just a bad dream along with the Anglo-Irish Treaty and that we'll soon wake up and find ourselves A Nation Once Again. Pursuant to this agenda, all references to modern local government administrative arrangements must be expunged. So Omagh is not in Omagh District, it is instead in County Tyrone. Consistent with this 'logic' is the pretense that only the so-called "traditional" counties occupy a geographic space. Apparently Omagh District is not a geographic area at all by this 'logic' - it merely serves as the remit of the Council. Please reject this 1984-esque attempt to deny plainly demonstrable realities. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:43, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
An outrageous misrepresentation, of my position anyway. RashersTierney (talk) 20:10, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Laurel, the "reality" is that the traditional 32 counties exist and are used as 'locators' much more often than the ever-shifting government districts. You don't hear folk saying they come from Newry and Mourne District or North Down Borough. They say they come from County Armagh or County Down. That doesn't make them republicans. If you check news websites, books and tourist leaflets you'll find the same thing. They don't refer to Dungannon as "a town in Dungannon and South Tyrone Borough", they refer to it as "a town in County Tyrone". Again, that doesn't make them republicans. ~Asarlaí 20:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
I just had a look at the Omagh article and I don't see the problem there and I see nothing on its talk page or history about a problem like this. Both the sidebar and the lead say it is in County Tyrone and also say it is in Omagh District. Is there somewhere else the problem being addressed has been discussed or did I miss it there? If it is not a problem that has already been discussed then trying to put changes in here because of it is premature. Dmcq (talk) 20:58, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
I need to come back on a couple of points. First, Rashers - I only added England to "generally localised to Ireland" because the reference to "Co." as an abbreviation of "County" being understood only in Ireland is just not true, therefore should not be in WP; it is very common in England as well. To mention that fact does not dilute the point, with which I fully agree, that "County" should be spelt out in case "Co." is not understood.
Second, Dmcq, I agree that "The current wording does not say we have to put in the old county names", but you will have noticed that almost every Irish article does in fact mention the traditional county when a place name is given. This isn't a WP rule but it is has become very much standard practice in relation to Ireland, though it is much less common in relation to nearby jurisdictions.
As to "potential disagreement", I am not sure that this is a big issue. The statements "Omagh is in County Tyrone" and "Omagh is in Omagh District" are both true, and both can be used in the same article. When only one is used, I would guess that most people would opt for the first form, but the second isn't wrong. However, to say that, for example, "Ballerin is in County Londonderry" is hugely more controversial than to say "Ballerin is in the Borough of Coleraine", simply because few if any people living in Ballerin would refer to the pre-1973 administrative unit as anything other than "County Derry", while they would all regard it as uncontentious to say that the valley now lies within the Coleraine council area. I think that the convention (it is not even a rule) of including a "trad 32" county name is always going to fuel arguments in the case of (at least) County Derry/Londonderry, so if an elegant way of avoiding it can be found, we should go with that rather than labelling places with a contested county name that has had no legal meaning for 40 years, and that we all know as a long-running source of edit wars.
I have to say that Tipp didn't enter my thinking at all, Rashers, but I doubt that this is insoluble: for example you could say "Thurles is a town in North Tipperary, formerly the North Riding of the traditional county of Tipperary".
Laurel Lodged, I would not associate myself with what you say about political agendas. My concern here is to find a way of side-stepping the issues that play into the hands of political factions, so that WP can be as neutral a a space as possible. There are those who make it their business to change Derry to Londonderry, or vice versa, and here I see a way of hauling many articles out of that sterile warring by acknowledging that the 21st century local government boundaries may (not must) be used as an alternative to either version of the name of the administratively obsolete county. It mightn't work - there will probably be some who try to insert their preferred version of the old county name again and again - but I think we should at least note the fact (because this is not actually a change of policy) that there is no actual requirement to insert one of the 32 county names. Brocach (talk) 23:28, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Oppose this per Asarlaí's reasoning. I see Brocach is still on his one man crusade to eradicate any mention of County Londonderry from Wikipedia. — Jon C.ॐ 09:13, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Query Was Asarlaí opposed? If so, he neglected to say so directly. Currently, apart from Jon. C. possible communication mix up, the only definite oppose is from Dmcq. Everybody else is in agreement with the proposal once you discount the huffing and puffing. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:54, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I oppose the new wording, as I think it's needless. As I noted in my last post, the convention—not only on Wikipedia but on TV, in newspapers, in books and on the street—is to use the traditional county as the locator. So that's what we should stick to. ~Asarlaí 23:59, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Editors can be in little doubt that I also oppose this revision, or indeed where the 'huffing and puffing' originates. I would go further, and say that consensus seems to be that the 'traditional counties' are generally used as geographic locators, and perhaps this should be expressly reflected in the MOS. RashersTierney (talk) 00:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia policies and guidelines are based on what editors generally do, they should only be changed to oppose what people generally do after quite a bit of debate and agreement that there is a very real problem. What this shows is that removing county is in fact opposed to general practice and that there is no big disagreement with the presence of references to county. As to neutrality it is not Wikipedia's function to be anodyne and make everyone happy, its purpose is to report what is said with some sort of reasonable weight in reliable sources. IF people don't like references to Londonderry that's their problem not ours. Dmcq (talk) 11:52, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Who said anything about removing county references? The proposal is to add, if liked, not to subtract. Other geographic markers may be added is the proposal. There's no must about it. There is no doubt about the use of the so-called "traditional" counties as geo markers. This does not preclude the existance of other markers. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:06, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
No, it isn't. "a council area ...or a new administrative county ... may be used instead." RashersTierney (talk) 22:30, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
As I wrote above, "Also, saying "may" is not the same as saying "must". Nor does it preclude both.". In other words, there would not be a wholesale clearout. Changes would only happen where the second was preferable or where it had equal status. That's my reading of the proposal. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:37, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
I confirm that this was my intention. There will be cases when it is possible and preferable to write a wholly satisfactory WP article on a place or entity in Ireland without referring to a traditional county, especially if that county no longer has any legal status. This neatly sidesteps the issue of the one county name that is controversial. That county no longer has any legal existence and if it is not essential to the subject of the article, there is no need to introduce one of the two forms of the (obsolete) county name. I see that, below, attempting to avoid unnecessary and highly politicised obsolete descriptors is seen by some as "disruptive trolling". In my book it is responsible, neutral editing. Brocach (talk) 00:05, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
There was no proposal. This was a revision to IMoS that crashed and burned. RashersTierney (talk) 00:13, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose Agree with Jon C, this proposal does seem like a cheap way to sneakily remove reference to Co. Londonderry. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 09:09, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose as others have noted the historic counties are still used in everyday life, few people would say that they come from "Fingal" or "Dungannon and South Tyrone". Valenciano (talk) 18:37, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose - All previous comments made with the prior opposes sum up the issue for me pretty much as well. Must also point out that is the 3rd or 4th attempt by Brocach in the past few months to try to circumvent the IMoS in regards to County Londonderry. I think a topic-ban may be neccesary if this disruptive trolling on the issue continues. Mabuska (talk) 19:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Asarlaí and Valenciano. Rory McIlroy is known as the golfer from Hollywood, County Down. I would have no idea, nor would most readers, what "district" he comes from. I further propose we close this discussion per WP:SNOW. --Scolaire (talk) 11:21, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

'Flag' section: new discussion

While the above discussion of the use (or not) of a flag to represent Ireland under the Union has generated a lively and useful debate around what is best practice in one specific instance, it also, for me, raises a more general question: should the MOS lay down universal rules concerning the use of historical flags in articles? Even the word "use" raises the question: use for what? The great majority of history articles, or articles with a history section, do not require the "use" of a flag for any purpose. On the other hand, any article may "use" any flag at all to illustrate the article content. An obvious example is the use of the "Irish Republic" flag as an image in the Easter Rising article.
The current "Flag" section was the outcome of this discussion in January 2010. You will notice that the heading of the discussion specifically said "modern usage only". It was intended to deal with the contentious issues of (1) the use of the tri-colour for 32-county Ireland and (2) the use of the Ulster Banner for post-1972 Northern Ireland. I believe it has dealt with these issues very effectively. But the addition of prescribed "uses" for historical flags seems to have been added by RA more or less as an afterthought. Obviously, none of the participants thought there was any harm in doing so, but there was no discussion of the need to add these flags, the problems it would address, or the advantages that would accrue.
In a couple of recent discussions I have expressed the view that IMOS should not be prescriptive as to article content, but should merely reflect current consensus regarding questions of style that tend to recur in Ireland-related articles. The first part of the "Flag" section does this; the remainder sets down a set of rules for which no consensus has ever been established, and which cover vague contingencies that have never arisen, apart from the recent controversy that arose out of the section itself.
I therefore propose that the words "For Irish states and polities at various times" and everything that follows be deleted. Any discussion of a(n) historical flag on an article should take place on the article talk page. Scolaire (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

A deafening silence after eight days, although there have been ten posts on the earlier related topic in the same period. I guess I'll go ahead and do it then. Scolaire (talk) 08:25, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
I've put the section back in. Rather than being needless prescription, the entry is a genuine MOS entry. We ordinarily use flags icons to represent polities. However, Ireland (32 counties) has never had a flag. Consequently, the question of which image to use is not straight forward and a MOS entry on the question is required for consistency.
The section corresponds with practice and the outcome of several exhaustive discussion across many venues. The proposal itself is here Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles/Archive_3. The content is based on discussions to do with the various Template:Country data Ireland template (inc. Template:Country data Kingdom of Ireland, etc.). As well as discussions on the Lordship of Ireland and Kingdom of Ireland pages. These were exhaustive. --RA (talk) 19:17, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I linked to the Archive 3 discussion in my post above. I said, "You will notice that the heading of the discussion specifically said 'modern usage only'", and "there was no discussion of the need to add these flags, the problems it would address, or the advantages that would accrue." You could start by addressing my first question: use of the flag for what? You apparently haven't noticed that this version doesn't mention icons at all! Even if it is icons that we are talking about, where are the "extensive discussions" to do with those templates, where is the consensus for the particular batch that you added to IMOS, and what problems have there been on those templates in the last three years that needed IMOS to resolve them? You had an opportunity to reply to my post but didn't. I am now restoring my edit to allow discussion to take place. Please respect that and do not edit-war. Scolaire (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It's Christmas. Don't expect the "Most Interested Person" to get back to you so quickly over the holidays.
"...where is the consensus for the particular batch that you added to IMOS..." In depth discussions on different images are in different places. Mainly in the places I mention above. The proposal itself to add them to the MOS is in Archive 3.
"...what problems have there been on those templates in the last three years that needed IMOS to resolve them?" There were problems before the MOS entry. I haven't seen any since. The problems were to do with what image to use to represent the different historical Irish polities.
TBH I'm at a loss to understanding your reasons for removing the section. --RA (talk) 22:52, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
"You could start by addressing my first question: use of the flag for what?" Template:Flagicon, etc. mainly. See Template:Country data Ireland. The MOS just reverse-codifies the agreement there (and in related discussion).--RA (talk) 23:46, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone know if that section of the IMOS has been cited as a reason to apply a particular flag in a particular article? I don't recall any such occasion, and if others can't, then is it really necessary? RashersTierney (talk) 22:47, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
MOS entries like this get cited in edit summaries because, once they are agreed, people fall in behind them. It's consistency that matters. The section is linked from WP:MILMOS#FLAGS and Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union/Style. --RA (talk) 23:37, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
AFAICT, this is guidance which will either never or almost never be used in any case. I can't see where the issue would come up. But, in principle, using a Union Flag to represent Ireland is wrong for any era, simply because we would never do the same for England, Wales or Scotland. Since we apparently have editors who would like to do that, we do need a guideline to prevent it. Formerip (talk) 00:30, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Precisely. The number of editors concerned with this is quite small. However, because Ireland never had a flag per se, there needs to be agreement (a) so there is consistency across diverse article and (b) because some editor have had some pretty mad ideas.
1801—1922 is a tricky period. I think the saltire is the best we can do. --RA (talk) 00:47, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps a simpler guideline would be: Do not use a Union Flag to represent Ireland. Case-by-case discussions about saltires, harps and so on could then be up for legitimate discussion for those who are interested. Formerip (talk) 01:06, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
That doesn't really do it for prior before 1801. 1801-1922 is the least problematic in practice because there was no Irish state during that period. For sports teams during the period 1801-1922, it is taken on a case-by-case basis.
An example of its use is Mabel Cahill. Although arguable that should show the Union Flag, like Blanche Bingley. --RA (talk) 01:49, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't understand. Why doesn't it really do it prior to 1801? Would we use a Union Flag for that period? Why is Blanch Bingley relevant? Formerip (talk) 01:52, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
The United Kingdom was formed in 1801. There was no union flag before then. An example of the kind of thing that one editor I remember was using for that period was St. George's Cross.
Both Mabel Cahill and Blanche Bingley were tennis players born in the United Kingdom at roughly the same time. The red saltire (and "Ireland") is given as the birth place of one. The union flag (and "United Kingdom") is given as the country of the other. If we were to be consistent, we would either give the union flag (and "United Kingdom") for both. Or the red saltire (and "Ireland) and the Cross of St. George (and "England") for each respectively.
In any case, Mabel Cahill is an example of an article where we use the saltire to represent Ireland during the period 1801—1922. --RA (talk) 02:06, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Rannpháirtí, I can't see that you have answered any of my questions. "In depth discussions on different images are in different places, mainly in the places I mention above" is not an answer. You "mentioned" templates; you didn't link or show diffs to any discussions, "in depth" or otherwise. Repeating "The proposal itself to add them to the MOS is in Archive 3", after I pointed out to you that I had already said so in my original post, and that the proposal came at the tail end of a discussion headed "modern usage only", and was not given any serious consideration before it was actioned, is not helpful. As to what it is used for, if it is mainly used for flagicon templates etc., then perhaps you could have edited the section to say, "The following icons may be used to represent Ireland in templates etc.", instead of just doing a knee-jerk revert.
Now, as to the content itself, if you read #Saltire representing Ireland 1801-1922 above you will see that there is virtual unanimity that the saltire was not the flag of Ireland at that time and should not be "used" in general. A small minority contend that the Union Flag was the flag of Ireland; the majority contend - and back it up with hard evidence - that there was no flag of Ireland and that therefore no flag should be used. This is supported by MOSICON when it says in the MOS:FLAGBIO section: "Flags should not be used to misrepresent the nationality of a historical figure, event, object, etc...Where ambiguity or confusion could result, it is better not to use a flag at all...For example, writer Oscar Wilde, a native of Ireland while that island was entirely part of the United Kingdom, should have neither an Irish flag nor a British flag, as either would confuse readers" (My italics).
And there should not be a flag for "Southern Ireland". Such a place never existed, except on paper. Nobody was born there, nobody died there, and no event ever took place there, not even the convening of the "Southern Irish Parliament" in January 1922. That happened, depending on your point of view, in either the United Kingdom or the Irish Republic. Besides the Act that created it, and the meeting to appoint the Provisional Government of the IFS, "Southern Ireland" is not of the slightest relevance to any article on Wikipedia or elsewhere, so prescribing an arbtrary flag (or flagicon) for it - especially the Union Jack - is a nonsense.
Bottom line, if we are going to keep those icons in the MOS, can we specify that we are talking about icons, not flags in general, clarify what they are supposed to be "used" for, and try to arrive at a meaningful consensus on what is to be used? Scolaire (talk) 09:34, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Scolaire, I answered your questions above. My answers may not have been to your satisfaction, but I did answer them.
The relevant discussions go back to at least 2007 (that's when I remember them being heated). You will find some portion at least on the pages I indicated. In general, the choice of flag icon for each period emerged from discussion on the relevant article pages and was then brought into the template (be that hockey, soccer, the kingdom, etc.)
Like I wrote above, the period 1801—1922 is the trickiest of the periods being discussed. Unsurprisingly, it is the only period that doesn't have its own Country Data Template. (Though, in practice, the saltire is widely used and, for the sake of consistency, I wouldn't go advising editors to use something else.)
Also, please stop with pettifoggery about whether the 2010 thread was "modern usage only" or not. Gnevin, the OP, got back to the proposal in 2010 and supported it.
All of the points you raise about MOS:FLAGBIO, WP:FLAGCRUFT, etc. are correct. Possibly where we disagree is that I regard these as separate issues. As you would correctly guess, for example, there are exactly zero practical uses of Template:Country_data_Southern_Ireland. My concern is about consistency, not the appropriateness of any given application to other MOS standards.
How about this, remove the section as you suggest, and replace it with a sentence simply pointing to Template:Country data Ireland? e.g.:

A series of templates have been developed to indicate Ireland in various sporting and historical contexts. These templates should be used in conjunction with other guidelines (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Icons).

I am a little bit loathe to do this since there is no practical problem here. (Has anyone raise an issue with any article? The discussion seems to be a theoretical one.) However, that would satisfy my desire for consistency, make it clear that we are only talking about icons, and emphasise the context of other MOS issues, etc.
If you want, I can create a variant for the green flag in the country template (e.g. {{tl|flagicon|IRE|green}})? --RA (talk) 11:15, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
I have a bit of a problem with the language being used here: "If you want, I can create..." This isn't about how you write IMOS, it's about a community reaching a consensus on wording. I don't "want" you to do anything; I want a discussion where everybody's ideas are listened to and respected.
What I would like to see is an edit to the section to state that the section is about the use of flagicons in templates, not the use of flags in articles. That's just about good English and clarity of writing. Whether the list part of the section is replaced with a pointer to the templates, or the entire section is replaced, or whether it is simply edited to make it clearer what is being said, is for the community to discuss and come to an agreement on, as is the form of words to be used in either case. My own feeling is that the first two paragraphs (the "text" part) should be left as they are, because they continue to serve a purpose. I am open to all suggestions regarding the remainder, including your "pointer" suggestion. Scolaire (talk) 12:07, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Watch your blood pressure, Scolaire. I was referring to Template:Country data Ireland. It already has an entry for the four provinces flag, for example: {{tl|flagicon|IRE|4prov}} produces Ireland. I was offering to create one for the green flag (which is a valid 'flag of Ireland', particularly during the period in question) because it is a protected template.
I'd also suggest that the entire section "continues to serve a purpose". Just because people are no longer warring over the icon to be used for, say, the Kingdom of Ireland, doesn't mean the MOS entry is invalidated. If anything, it underlines the consensus that lies behind the entry. --RA (talk) 14:16, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
No, see, the fact that you are taking the trouble to explain things to me means that I can now see how the whole section serves a purpose. What was incomprehensible to me before (the bit that I removed) is beginning to become clear. What I would like to do is work on re-wording it so that it is immediately clear to everybody who reads it for the first time. As well as, of course, getting agreement on the status of the saltire.
BTW, this is (I think) a list of pages that link to the "Southern Ireland" template. Can we agree to lose that one out of IMOS altogether? Scolaire (talk) 14:28, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
I only included Southern Ireland for comprehensiveness. I'm not sure of it's origin. I also notice it has been removed from the Southern Ireland article. --RA (talk) 15:42, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
So far, no reasoning whatsoever has been given for its inclusion. BRD? So discuss. RashersTierney (talk) 17:29, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm getting more and more bothered with using the Saltire. You say above Though, in practice, the saltire is widely used and, for the sake of consistency, I wouldn't go advising editors to use something else. Yet there isn't a shred of evidence (in terms of references, etc) that shows this is correct. I realize you didn't participate in the discussion above until just now, but you can surely see that various editors looked for references and came back empty handed. I've asked pretty much all the same questions in 2008 and didn't get satisfactory responses (see the Saint Patrick's Saltire Talk page). Why do you insist that the saltire is the correct flag for the period. Or that any flag is appropriate or correct? --HighKing (talk) 13:02, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm not insisting that the saltire is the correct flag for the period. I'm not convinced that any flag is correct in an absolute sense.
However, outside of this discussion, in practice, the saltire has a great degree of use. That use is mainly limited to religious and sporting contexts. In the former it is correct (the CoI uses the saltire) and in the latter it is arguable correct and has the support of the community of editors who work in the relevant areas (e.g. boxing, tennis, soccer). --RA (talk) 14:16, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
I agree it is useful for some particular contexts. The CoI example if a good one. But when you say it has the support of the community of editors in, say, the sporting areas, I don't agree. I believe the flag used just became the default because editors made an assumption that it was correct and referenced. I've been looking for references for use of the saltire for years and they haven't materialized. I believe usage of the saltire as a general flag is incorrect. The discussion above appears to agree that consensus is that there wasn't a "general" flag for the period. Can we change the MOS to reflect that? --HighKing (talk) 19:54, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and added text clarifying this.
Incidentally, and not wishing to boost the level of complexity here beyond what is manageable, I notice that the guidance says to use the Ulster Banner up to 1972, but it actually seems to be set as a default rather than a variant (i.e. the guidance seems to be telling users to do something that is different from the way the template is set up). Formerip (talk) 13:08, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
{{noflag}} is used and produces " Northern Ireland". I agree there is an argument to flip this around so that {{flag}} produces no icon. However, bear in mind that many sporting article use the Ulster Banner properly.
I'm not sure about precedent in having a blank image as the default image in Country Data templates. However, I agree there is an argument for it in this case. Particularly, if there was a strong consensus to have it that way. A bot process would be needed to make the change so that the it didn't adversely affect current articles (whether they are "right" or "wrong"). --RA (talk) 14:16, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'm having trouble understanding all this because people are not linking to templates or template talk pages. Can you please link to the template that is set up differently to the guidance on IMOS, so that we can see what you're talking about? Scolaire (talk) 14:06, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
{{flag|Northern Ireland}} produces  Northern Ireland. FormerIP is saying that this should show " Northern Ireland" by default. And only the Ulster Banner as a variable (e.g. {{flag|Northern Ireland|banner}} should produce  Northern Ireland).
Otherwise, none of the templates are set-up differently to the guidance on the IMOS. The entry in the IMOS is based on the consensus that feed into those templates. --RA (talk) 14:21, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Additionally, sport templates seem to use the same default. For example, {{fb|Northern Ireland}} gives you  Northern Ireland, as in this article. It could instead be set up to give the insignia of the Irish FA, which is what the guidance suggests should happen. Formerip (talk) 14:44, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
That's intentional. Consensus among the footballing editors is to use Ulster Banner to indicate Northern Ireland, which AFAIC accords with the guidance in the MOS.
The MOS should reflect consensus in practice. It should not be used as a vehicle to lever a change in practice. --RA (talk) 15:28, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Do you know where it was discussed? Formerip (talk) 15:39, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Epic discussions on Talk:Northern Ireland, no doubt. Once upon a time, the Ulster Banner was used throughout the wiki. Use of the banner by international sporting bodies (e.g. FIFA) saved it from the axe in certain sporting contexts. --RA (talk) 15:54, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
So, then, should the MOS say "{{flag|Northern Ireland}} for Northern Ireland, 2 June 1953 – 30 March 1972 and {{noflag|Northern Ireland}} for Northern Ireland, 31 March 1972 to date, except in certain sporting contexts"? Scolaire (talk) 17:24, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with FormerIP's suggestions on the Ulster Banner in regards to sport where it is the flag used by certain sports organisations.

On the overall topic, the Saltire as far as I am concerned is the best choice for a flag to represent Ireland during it's year of Union. Why? Because that is how it is represented in the Union Flag - by the red saltire of St. Patrick. The fact the flag still features in various coats of arms such as those of County Cork and Fermanagh and in the coat of arms for Coleraine shows it has a greater historical context than just as part of the Union Flag. Mabuska (talk) 16:10, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Outstanding issues

Some of the points I'm going to make have not been made before, but they naturally arise out of the discussion:

  1. Since the section apparently is concerned with templates, surely it should show codes as well as icons, as RA has done above ("{{noflag}} is used and produces " Northern Ireland" or " {{tl|flagicon|IRE|4prov}} produces Ireland")?
  2. Different templates apparently produce the same icon. The tricolour is produced by {{flagicon|Irish Free State}}, {{flagicon|Ireland}} or {{flagicon|Republic of Ireland}}. The UB is produced by {{flag|Northern Ireland}} or {{fb|Northern Ireland}} (I don't know whether they actually are different templates, but generally I would go to a manual of style to learn such things). If the MOS is going to say which image to use, it should also say which template (or which form of a template) to use in order to get it.
  3. Should the MOS say "{{flag|Northern Ireland}} for Northern Ireland, 2 June 1953 – 30 March 1972 and {{noflag|Northern Ireland}} for Northern Ireland, 31 March 1972 to date, except in certain sporting contexts"? Is that actually the consensus view, or is there still disagreement on it?
  4. Is the "Southern Ireland" flagicon of any use? It's not in use on any article. The entity never had any existence in fact, only very briefly in law, and is nothing more than a historical oddity that gets the briefest of mentions in a few articles. What is the rationale for retaining it (hint: "It is useful" is not a rationale). If it is retained - and I sincerely hope it won't be - why use the Union Flag? Of all the real and pretend countries, "Southern Ireland" was the closest to a home rule Ireland there ever was.
  5. What exactly is the case for using the saltire? Leaving aside the fact that there was no actual flag of Ireland, are there reliable sources (and I mean reliable!) that it was commonly used in the 19th century to represent Ireland, or that it was more commonly used than any other banner? Was there a discussion (in other words, can somebody actually link to a discussion) in which a clear consensus emerged that it would be a good image to represent pre-Independence Ireland?
  6. What is the status of the Green harp flag? The C of E, based on the image description, said that it was purely a nationalist banner, but the fact that it was used – with the Union Jack superimposed – as a naval ensign strongly suggests that it also had favour with the establishment (it's also the same as the old Royal Standard with just the background colour changed).
  7. Do we really need to say "Do not use any flag to represent Gaelic Ireland"? It has connotations of "the Gaelic Irish were boggers who didn't know what a flag was", and it doesn't address any actual problem, as far as I can see. Also, why say that the Lordship flag "may" be used when we don't say that for any of the others?

I think that about covers it. Feel free to add any issues that I've missed. Scolaire (talk) 17:29, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

  • The flags we are discussing are essentially symbols of authority. Don't expect to find neutral symbols of 'legitimate authority' when that very authority was contested, violently and otherwise. According to Hayes-McCoy, the only 'official' flag in Ireland for 200 years prior to the 1801 union was the pre-1800 union flag, which flew from government buildings and military barracks. It was essentially a flag of colonial conquest, but it certainly didn't represent Ireland. RashersTierney (talk) 02:41, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
    • A very good point, Rashers! It goes a long way towards explaining why people get so het up about flags. My own position is that 'official' means nothing on Wikipedia, and 'consensus' means everything. I would like to see people reach a consensus on what icons we would like to represent Ireland in different areas and at different times. If, after a reasonable period of discussion there is no consensus, then IMOS should not give the impression that there is. Scolaire (talk) 10:04, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I have absolutely no problem with the flag icons as they are currently. — Jon C.ॐ 10:05, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
  • It was a reply to your post, but I'll outline my feelings on each point individually, too.
  1. Don't understand, sorry.
  2. Agree.
  3. I think this is fine as is.
  4. Southern Ireland did exist in law, and the Union Jack was its flag (as part of the UK), so I don't see any pressing need to delete this.
  5. The case for using the Saltire is that it represented Ireland in the Union Flag, just as the St George's and St Andrew's crosses represent(ed) England (+Wales) and Scotland.
  6. I don't think the Green Harp flag had any official use. It was an unofficial flag flown by Irish merchant ships that wanted to emphasise their Irishness, as far as I know, although I'd be interested if anyone found some legally-/officially-sanctioned usage.
  7. I don't think it has any such connotations, it's just advising not to anachronistically use modern flags for polities that didn't have them. Re the Lordship, no idea. — Jon C.ॐ 10:41, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually, 1 and 2 say pretty much the same thing: that we should show the template code as well as the resulting image. Scolaire (talk) 20:58, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Scolaire for putting this together. Certainly the templates appear to need cleaning up, and better guidance given to their usage. And Rashers appears to have found another good scholarly reference to explain the why we couldn't find references to flag usage post-1801, and it adds even more weight to the references above stating the same thing. --HighKing (talk) 18:49, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion v1

So, what I'm proposing in practice looks something like this:

Flag icons

This section deals with the use of flag icons to represent Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

At this time, neither the island of Ireland nor Northern Ireland has a universally recognised flag. If an organisation uses a flag or banner to represent the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland, use that flag or banner to represent teams, bodies or people under its aegis. If that image is copyrighted, it may be possible to use an older public domain alternative if the older flag or banner is not significantly different to the current one (such with as the IRFU banner). If that is not possible, or if the organisation uses no particular flag or banner, do not use any flag.

The following flag icons should be used:

Northern Ireland:

  • {{flag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 2 June 1953 – 30 March 1972
  • {{noflag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 31 March 1972 onwards
  • {{fb|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), for football, golf and certain other sports

Republic of Ireland and its predecessors:

  • {{flag|Irish Free State}} ( Irish Free State), 6 December 1922 - 28 December 1937
  • {{flag|Ireland}} ( Ireland), 29 December 1937 onwards
  • {{flag|Republic of Ireland}} ( Republic of Ireland), as an alternative to the above, 18 April 1949 onwards

Pre-partition Ireland

Scolaire (talk) 20:52, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Two questions immediately occur to me:

  1. Why is the UB only to be used from June 1953, and what are we supposed to use before that?
  2. How did the saltire come to be named "1783"?

Scolaire (talk) 20:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Reading Ulster Banner answered the first part of the first question for me, but the second part remains. Reading Saint Patrick's Saltire answered the second question, but I still think its a funny name. Scolaire (talk) 21:08, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the suggestion using fb:Northern Ireland for all sporting contexts doesn't work in my view as it only links to the NI national football team so it would look out of place if you put it in the Rory McIlroy or Linfield articles. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 21:21, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
{{fb|NIR}} is only meant to be used for football articles. I don't think there is a template for golf, so it should just follow the general convention, unless there is a good argument for doing otherwise. Formerip (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
My understanding was that when McIlroy plays, that flag appears beside his name (at least on television). Am I wrong? Scolaire (talk) 21:51, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
At any rate, you both appear to be saying that {{fb}} is a different set of templates and doesn't belong here at all. Is that correct? If so, then just strike through that line. Scolaire (talk) 22:01, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
No, it's fine, it's just that it's for football only (fb= foot.ball). Formerip (talk) 22:19, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Or, if necessary, create a different sub-section dealing with sport. Formerip (talk) 22:25, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
But there's also an fb template for the Republic of Ireland, and presumably for the Irish Free State as well. Are there also templates for sports other than football? How many would we need to add in, for completeness? Scolaire (talk) 22:34, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Question: What would we do for Northern Ireland prior to 1953? Formerip (talk) 21:44, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I do think we ought to use the UB for that as when NI was created with the coat of arms, the decree also stated that the arms could be used on a banner (ie. The UB). The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 21:52, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Okay. This is confirmed in the Coat of arms of Northern Ireland article. The UB article is quite hazy on what was designed in 1923; it could do with a good edit. I would favour the use of the UB from the creation of the state (even though that pre-dates the design of the arms). Scolaire (talk) 22:11, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Also, since we're discussing the whole flags issue, the issue of the republic should be corrected to only use ROI from 1949 when the republic actually was a republic. There is a bit of inconsitancy saying that the republic was to be used in 1937 when there was still a King of Ireland reigning with roles in state until 1949. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 22:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
That's only a matter of tweaking the wording. When I say "as an alternative to the above, 18 April 1949 onwards", I mean "but only from 1949 onwards". Scolaire (talk) 22:14, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
To both your UB and ROI suggestions, I would say that's an excellent idea, I fully support that as it would stop all that blanking and would make it consistant. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 22:17, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion v2

So, incorporating the above suggestions we have:

Flag icons

This section deals with the use of flag icons to represent Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

At this time, neither the island of Ireland nor Northern Ireland has a universally recognised flag. If an organisation uses a flag or banner to represent the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland, use that flag or banner to represent teams, bodies or people under its aegis. If that image is copyrighted, it may be possible to use an older public domain alternative if the older flag or banner is not significantly different to the current one (such with as the IRFU banner). If that is not possible, or if the organisation uses no particular flag or banner, do not use any flag.

The following flag icons should be used:

Northern Ireland:

Republic of Ireland and its predecessors:

  • {{flag|Irish Free State}} ( Irish Free State), 6 December 1922 - 28 December 1937
  • {{flag|Ireland}} ( Ireland), 29 December 1937 onwards
  • {{flag|Republic of Ireland}} ( Republic of Ireland), as an alternative to the above, but only from 18 April 1949 onwards

Pre-partition Ireland

Scolaire (talk) 22:43, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Very problematic. The Ulster Banner did not exist until 1953 so it is nonsense to use it from 1921. To say that a British grant of arms in 1924 "permitted" the use of devices from it in a banner is neither here nor there; the flag did not exist and was not used until 1953 so it does not represent Northern Ireland for the first 30 years after partition. WP is not here to rewrite history.
Similarly, it is nonsense to argue for the so-called "Saint Patrick's Saltire" as a flag of Ireland on the basis that it was "incorporated" in a British flag. There is no evidence whatever that the red X on a white field was ever a flag of Ireland, any more than that it was St Patrick's flag. Several blue triangles appear in the British flag, would you suggest this makes them candidates for the retrospective designation of an Irish flag?
As for the Irish flag, it is absurd to offer three identical flags with differently-named templates.  Ireland is perfectly adequate for the whole period from partition. Brocach (talk) 23:06, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
If it's absurd to "offer" three templates then it is absurd to have them. The templates are around and they are in use (although, strangely, List of state leaders in 1922 has the "Free State" template, but uses the name parameter to make it say "Ireland"). These are all issues that have raised their heads since this discussion began, and need to be dealt with.
If we don't use the UB pre-1953, or the saltire for 1801-1922, what do you think we should use, or do you think we should use no flag? Scolaire (talk) 23:47, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
We simply can't use a flag that did not exist for the period from partition to 1953. Northern Ireland had no flag of its own at that time and the field should be blank. This is supposed to be an encyclopaedia and it should not say things that are plainly untrue. Likewise, unless anyone can discover (and persuade us) that there actually was a flag of Ireland from 1801 to 1922, no flag should be used. As for the Irish flag, it just looks so daft to have three identical icons with three different descriptors and precise (to the day) protocols as to when Flag One must be lowered, Flag One must be hoisted, Flag One must be lowered again and Flag One must be hoisted again. I don't mind how that is sorted out but someone should have the wit to do it without requiring this nonsensically detailed set of instructions. Brocach (talk) 00:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually, it's not quite as nonsensical as it looks. The template includes the link to the article. Even if you use the name parameter to change the text "Irish Free State" to "Ireland", the link is still to the "Irish Free State" article. There will be times when that is the appropriate link. There might be a case for decommissioning the "Republic of Ireland" template, and using the name parameter on the "Ireland" template if there was a good reason to label it "Republic of Ireland" (they both link to ROI, because there is no separate article for the 1937-1949 quasi-republic). If we did go this route, it would still have to be spelled out in IMOS, which means there would still be three tricolour icons.
By the way, I agree with you on the d/m/y dates. I was only following the current format. I think that the year only should be stated. If there was a particular case of somebody or something falling within the year but outside the precise date, it should be possible to deal with that without having to refer to the MOS. Scolaire (talk) 08:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that it might be an idea that when referring to the country between 1937 and 1949 to use Irish Free State|Ireland as the name was changed in the 1937 constitution but as it wasn't a republic then I think just Ireland there would be right. For post 1949 when it did become a republic, then I would think that just Republic of Ireland would be best. Also I'd say maybe a slight tweak to the NI one is that it might be best to be able to use the flag|NI template for other sporting contexts (ie. golf and club football teams) since the fb one only refers to the national team. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 09:06, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh, the ramifications! They just keep ramifying. Yes, I think it would be reasonable to use the NI template for club football and golf. I would then be inclined to take out the fb template, and just add a general note that fb templates exist for national football teams.
wrt the flag of Ireland 1937-48, we have to remember that the determining factor is not the legal position, but the article to which the template links. Ireland 1937‑48 is dealt with in the Republic article, not the Free State article. Scolaire (talk) 09:19, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, after much convincing circa. 2007, {{flag|Ireland}} uses the tricolour and pipe links to Republic of Ireland. Before then, it used the tricolour and linked to Ireland. --RA (talk) 13:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
This looks fine to me. Hand-wringing over the Ulster Banner and Saltire is unnecessary. In many cases, what is shown in these templates is not a "flag" but a heraldic emblem or even logo - and not necessarily an "official" emblem.
For example {{flag|Europe}} is used even though "Europe" doesn't have a flag of any sort. The fact that the Council of Europe's emblem (what is now the EU flag) existed during the period of use and is sufficiently associated with Europe is enough.
Another example is {{flag|Holy Roman Empire}}, which never had a flag of any sort. What's used there is the coat of arms of the Holy Roman Emperor. Compare with use of the coat of arms of the Government of Northern Ireland to show Northern Ireland before 1973.
So, use of the Ulster Banner for Northern Ireland from 1921 to 1973 is fine: the arms existed during that period of Northern Ireland, were closely associated with Northern Ireland during the period. Similarly, with the Saltire, the flag existed during that period and is sufficiently associated and evocative of Ireland-within-the-Union to suffice.
I don't think there's any need to indicate the NI footballing template. A whole raft of these templates exist for hockey, rugby, cricket and all sorts. We can link to the template pages where they can be seen (Template:Country data Ireland and Template:Country data Northern Ireland). Likewise, {{flag|Republic of Ireland}} can be left out, if we just link to the template page. It's a secondary template. --RA (talk) 13:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
It's not fine to decide to use in an encyclopaedia flags which are "evocative of" particular places at particular times, but were not the flags of those places at those times. This is a question of accuracy, not "hand-wringing". The Ulster Banner existed as the flag of Northern Ireland only between 1953 and 1972, and to use it for earlier (or later) periods is a political statement. The red X flag is utter nonsense: it was never the flag of Ireland. If it is proper to use no flag for Ireland for periods when there was no Irish flag, how can it possibly be acceptable to pretend that these flags stand for Northern Ireland, or Ireland, respectively, at times when they did not and no-one can produce any evidence that they did? Brocach (talk) 13:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, the UB was not the flag of Northern Ireland between 1953 and 1972. To say it is acceptable for this period (which we have been saying for years) and then to say it is unacceptable for the earlier period, is hair-splitting. Scolaire (talk) 16:51, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
And strictly speaking, the Union Flag also isn't officially the flag of the UK. All these hangups on what's official and what isn't are distracting and unnecessary. — Jon C.ॐ 16:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Now you have my attention! Does this site not say that it is? Scolaire (talk) 17:06, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
It's the banner of the British sovereign that has become, by convention, the de facto – but not de jure – national flag of the nation as a whole. But she still gets to decide when and where it flies. — Jon C.ॐ 17:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Cool! Scolaire (talk) 17:13, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I think the point is not about its official status. The Ulster Banner doesn't seem to have existed prior to 1953, either officially or unofficially. Formerip (talk) 17:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
It didn't exist as a banner i.e. a piece of cloth. But the red cross with the hand and the crown existed from 1923, and was designed for the state that was created in 1921. See Coat of arms of Northern Ireland. --Scolaire (talk) 17:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but the Coat of Arms is not the same, even though it's obviously the basis for the later flag. Surely it would be more informative to use the Coat of Arms itself for the relevant period? Formerip (talk)
From that article: "This was the same design as the Ulster Banner, which had been designed in the previous year." — Jon C.ॐ 17:30, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Although I don't know it to be wrong, that's unsourced and contradicted by the Ulster Banner article. Formerip (talk) 18:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Also from that article: the escutcheon is Argent a cross gules, overall on a six pointed star of the field ensigned by an Imperial crown proper a dexter hand couped at the wrist of the second. That's what's on the flag icon. The escutcheon is the COA, to all intents and purposes. The "supporters" etc. are just window dressing. In fact, they were not added until later (1971 in the case of the "compartment"). Scolaire (talk) 18:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
"Political statement"? Get a grip, man. All this MOPE stuff is getting tiresome. Agree with RA's sensible contribution. — Jon C.ॐ 15:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
It is polite to link to your acronyms. It took me ages to find that. Scolaire (talk) 16:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

What is a flag?

We need some definitions here. Wikipedia has neither a physical nor a virtual flagpole. There are no state occasions on WP where a flag is flown. Heads of state may very well visit us, but if they do, they do so anonymously like everybody else, so there is no need to display the flag for them.
When we say "flag" on WP, we are talking about a tiny little picture that is used in an article to represent a country or other such entity. The flag icon has no official status at all; it is an image for the purposes of illustration like any other image. We are at liberty to choose whatever image we want, within reason. Where an entity has an undisputed official (copyright-free) flag, that is the obvious thing to use for a "flag". Where it doesn't, a recognisable banner generally associated with the entity, or a coat of arms uniquely representing that entity, is the next most obvious choice. Made-up "flags", such as the shamrock I remember being suggested in one discussion or the NI map suggested in another, are problematical because of OR issues; the kinds of banner or COA we are talking about don't have those problems.
Having said all that, the saltire does seem to be a particularly contentious image in this discussion. AFAIR, the only reasons advanced for its retention are (a) that it was incorporated into the Union Flag in eighteen-whatever and (b) that it is "fine". And I still haven't found any discussion where a majority of participants specifically said "the saltire is a good choice". It may be that a poll is needed on this one. As an alternative I would propose the Green Harp Flag. Scolaire (talk) 16:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

The reasons for the saltire are more than just because it is "fine". The green harp flag is a more traditional flag of Ireland (including during the period, and the century immediately before). However, it was seen during the time as a symbol of the Irish in rebellion (think 1798). It's origin is in altering the royal coat of arms from a blue field to a green field. (British Flags:1922, p.51)
The saltire, on the other hand, is said to have had only an "ephemeral" existence as a separate flag before the union (British flags: 51-52). But it was during this period that it became known as a national flag of Ireland (Flags: some account of their history and uses: 1881, p.54). --RA (talk) 18:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Is the fact that it was "seen" as a symbol of rebellion a reason not to use what you say is a more traditional flag of Ireland? Are we "justifying violence" if we acknowledge a green flag as a traditional flag? During [the 19th century] the saltire became known as a national flag of Ireland by whom? Some bigwigs, or the people of Ireland? Who wrote Flags: some account of their history and uses? I'm willing to bet it wasn't Parnell or Davitt. Did anyone ever write a song called "Wrap the St. Patrick's Saltire 'Round Me, Boys"? Scolaire (talk) 18:37, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
We do not need flags at all for periods when there was not a flag of the territory in question. To extend the application of the Ulster Banner back thirty years before it even existed is just historically wrong. To apply the red saltire to any period as the national flag of Ireland is also wrong. Just as some would see a green flag as a symbol of rebellion, others would see an emblem only ever used by a very few in the unelected ruling elite as a symbol of oppression. Did those living in Ireland ever recognise that thing as their flag? Wikipedia should, as far as possible, be a politically neutral space and the easy and obvious solution is not to use flags that did not apply to the time and place in question. Brocach (talk) 22:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
We don't need flags at all. But whatever is done for Ireland needs to follow general Wikipedia trends, because IMOS is not a splinter-group. That means not using invisible flags except where there is a very clear case. Formerip (talk) 23:17, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm just picking this thred up now. Are we discussing what flag should represent the former Ireland during the period it was a constituent part of the UK? If so, I think we should be following the same practice as we follow for Northern Ireland today. If there was no distinct official flag (or verifiably, quasi official), we should use none or the Union flag where we use the Union flag for NI today (just as is the case for NI today). To do otherwise would seem rather inconsistent. That's my opinion unless I am picking up this discussion wrongly. Frenchmalawi (talk) 23:37, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
No, you're not picking it up wrongly. I just disagree with you, and with Brocach. In a situation where nearly every country in the world is represented by a flag icon (i.e. an image, not something you have to salute), Ireland should have an icon. To do otherwise would seem rather inconsistent. Northern Ireland today is unique: the UB is not recognised by the state, and it is not associated by people generally with present-day Northern Ireland, but it is associated in many people's minds with extreme forms of loyalism, so it cannot be used. In the post-Good Friday state, where parity of esteem is given to both traditions, the use the Union Flag would be as wrong as the use of the tricolour. If there were a flag that would uniquely represent Northern Ireland we would all be happily using it, but there isn't, so we regrettably have to use none. Nineteenth-century Ireland is a different case altogether. There are images (flags, banners, whatever) that are uniquely associated with the Ireland of that time. The Saltire and the Green Harp flag are two options. To leave Ireland without any icon, when there are icons available, would be wrong. Scolaire (talk) 00:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Scolaire. I can see that we have a good faith disagreement on principles and we are not likely to ever agree.
My position on an historic Ireland flag is as I outlined above. I consider your view as tantamount to trying to "reinvent history". There was no single recognised flag for the former Ireland during that period...but you are trying to pick one. I think you are acting in good faith but I don't see it as having any integrity from a standards perspective.
I totally disagree with your assertions around NI. It absolutely has a flag: the Union flag. But that flag is not distinctive to it. It flies over its Assembly on "flag days" etc. There is no "parity of esteem" in terms of flags in NI. Whatever our sympathies or politics, that much is abundently clear....the Irish flag does not fly alongside the Union flag above the Assembly etc....NI is evolving so perhaps some day it will. That would be truly remarkable but for now only exists in the imaginations (or dreams) of some people. Frenchmalawi (talk) 01:19, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
The green flag was undoubtedly the most popular flag of Ireland at the time but it was a politicised emblem. At least in some cases, it appears to have been illegal. British Flags (1922, p. 53) described two cases of the green ensign being seized in Dublin and Belfast in 1785. The Wearing of the Green (2006, page 30) describes this scene from 1846:

On St. Patrick's Day, 1846, two ships, the Thatis and the Borneo, harboured in Limerick, illegally hoisted the green flag of Ireland in 'honour of the national festival'. The flags were quickly removed on the orders of the British war steamer, the Pinto, but not before 'the feelings of the multitude' watching and cheering the flag from the harbour wall, 'were desperately excited'.

Interestingly, sources from the time (and British Flags:1922) make a distinction between a green flag with a crown and a green flag without one — the latter apparently being more offensive.
As far as officials are concerned, it would appear that they are very adamant that the flag of Ireland during the period is the Union Flag (this assertion appears in several sources from the time). An interesting exchange appears in the debate on the Government of Ireland Bill (Hansard, 12 December 1913). The exchange concerned a proposed amendment to the effect that the Union Flag would continue to be the flag of Ireland after Home Rule. Opponents to the amendment asserted that it will be up to Ireland to decide its own flag. What the flag of Ireland would be wasn't known. The saltire wasn't discussed as an option. It appears likely that a harp flag would have been the choice. However, even then, there was a question over whether it would be set on the green field or blue.
All of the above, however, underlines my point (which I think you'll agree with) that whatever about the popularity of the green flag during the 19th century, it was not representative of Ireland within the union — more of the desire for Ireland to exit the union. --RA (talk) 02:05, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I think you and I are on the same page on this one RA...Flags are fascinating. The only official flag was the Union flag during the period, just as the only official flag for NI today is the Union flag....Whatever is decided should not ignore that. Popularity doesn't rank high here - it's what was official at the time. I am not saying the Union flag has to be used all the time, just as the Union flag is not used all the time on WP for NI because of the particular contexts (it may not be apt. where distinctive, regional flag is required)...but just as with NI, where that is the case, use no flag. As an aside, I remember reading Hansard about the concern of some MPs that the UK flag might need to change after the IFS was established...Frenchmalawi (talk) 03:05, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I think maybe you haven't been following the discussion as closely as I thought. What is official or what was official at the time doesn't rank high here. Even Jon C, someone who would very definitely be on the same page as you, said here, "strictly speaking, the Union Flag also isn't officially the flag of the UK. All these hangups on what's official and what isn't are distracting and unnecessary." Scolaire (talk) 12:29, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
But, Rannpháirtí, to use a word of yours, I don't understand the "hand-wringing" about "Ireland within the union". That Ireland was within the union in that period is not disputed, but Ireland was not defined by the union, nor by the desire to exit it. It was a country, populated by Irish people. It was not just an administration in Dublin Castle and a system of local government. James Joyce was born in Ireland. Tom Crean was born in Ireland. Peter O'Connor was born in Ireland. There is no reason to think that any of them was more than vaguely aware of the existence of the saltire. But Peter O'Connor at least was aware of the green flag, and acknowleged it as the flag of Ireland, as did the Irish Athletic Association and the GAA. And I'm pretty sure that the king of England and the king of Greece, as they sat in the royal box at the Intercalated Games in 1906, recognised the flag he was waving as the flag of Ireland, even if they didn't "recognise" it in the political sense. What we want is a flag icon to represent Ireland in the 1800-1922 period, not Ireland-within-the-Union, which is just about as ethereal a concept as "Southern Ireland". A traditional flag, recognised in Ireland and abroad as an Irish flag, is to be preferred to made-up flag, "recognised" by a few bureaucrats, that had no actual official status. Scolaire (talk) 12:15, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm also nonplussed by your statement that the green flag "was a politicised emblem." As far as I can tell from this discussion and my backgroung reading, the saltire, which was originally in the regalia of the Order of Saint Patrick, was more or less simultaneously incorporated in and derived from the Union Flag. Since the Act of Union was a political act, it follows that the saltire as a flag of Ireland "was a politicised emblem." The choice is not between a neutral and a political emblem, but between two competing political emblems. Scolaire (talk) 13:40, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
The notion that the Union flag is not now (in 2012) and was not during the 1801-1922 period the official flag does not correspond with the facts. That there was or is no law on the matter is not whats important. Whats important here is how the Governmental authority regarded - And there is no doubt whatsoever that the Union flag was the official flag of the UK (and by default, the former Ireland). I think people are trying to reinvent history and have pick a distinct flag for a territory that did not have one during the period....It would be like trying to pretend there is a distinct flag for NI today. History is messy. The former Ireland did not have a distinct flag, just as NI does not today. Frenchmalawi (talk) 17:24, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
...remember, the British constitution is not even a written one....so that there is no Constitutional clause saying what the official flag is or was during a particular period doesn't change the position that the Union flag is official and recognised as such. Frenchmalawi (talk) 17:26, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion v3

@Scolaire, "Ireland-within-the-Union" was not "as ethereal a concept as 'Southern Ireland'". It was a clearly defined jurisdiction within the United Kingdom from 1801-1921, as clearly defined and as real as Scotland or England, or as Northern Ireland today. You know as well as I that many of our laws in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland today are the laws of "Ireland-within-the Union".

That aside, this discussion has convinced me that there was no consensus symbol that represented Ireland as a constituent country of the UK. The green flag was popular but it cannot be said to represent the jurisdiction. (It can be said to represent the large body of the nation within that jurisdiction.)

The saltire may be/have been assumed by many to be the flag of that jurisdiction because of its use in the Union Flag. But, as British Flags puts it, it only had a "ephemearl" existence as a sperate flag. What's more, it was treated with some scepticism even during time.

I have no strong views with respect to use of the green flag for sporting or other occasions (like use of the UB for NI), where it is considered appropriate. But I think, we should drop mention of "Ireland-within-the-union" from the MOS. There is no country data template for the jurisdiction.

Flag icons

This section deals with the use of flag icons to represent Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Please see also, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Icons.

Northern Ireland:

  • {{flag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 3 May 1921 – 30 March 1972
  • {{noflag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 31 March 1972 onwards

Republic of Ireland and its predecessors:

  • {{flag|Irish Free State}} ( Irish Free State), 6 December 1922 - 28 December 1937
  • {{flag|Ireland}} ( Ireland), 29 December 1937 onwards

Pre-partition Ireland

At this time, neither the island of Ireland nor Northern Ireland has a universally recognised flag. If an organisation uses a flag or banner to represent the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland, use that flag or banner to represent teams, bodies or people under its aegis. If that image is copyrighted, it may be possible to use an older public domain alternative if the older flag or banner is not significantly different to the current one (such with as the IRFU banner). If that is not possible, or if the organisation uses no particular flag or banner, do not use any flag.

A series of series of templates have been developed to represent Ireland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland in sporting and other contexts. These can be seen here:

I'll add variant to Template:Country data Ireland to display the green flag, if others want. --RA (talk) 16:53, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Support: @RA, I'm not going to respond to your points, for the simple reason that I think your suggested text is perfect and should be implemented ASAP. I would consider it a personal favour if you would create a template variant to display the green flag. Scolaire (talk) 17:45, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I object strongly to the use of the term "Republic of Ireland" in the way it is used. It's misleading in my view.
I also don't like the statement "the island of Ireland...[does not have] a universally recognised flag". Strikes me as silliness, especially "at this time" (as if that's about to change!). How would an island have a flag that was "universally recognised"; Do any of Hispaniolla, Saint Martin, New Guinea or Borneo have "universally recognised" flags.....There are reasons it could have one (e.g. sport) but... how on earth could it have one that was universally recognised...it's two jurisdictions
"developed to represent Ireland, Nothern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland"....It's odd to use the state's official name and its description here...I expect one of these is an island.
I'd like sources as to the status of those pre partition flags and their official status. Those would be great!! and really worthwhile and value adding!!
The dates for the NI flag dates are wrong. Check out the NI flag article - 1953-1972 are the years; you'll have to check again on the dates.
Frenchmalawi (talk) 18:35, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand what there is to object to in "Republic of Ireland" in the way it is used. A reference for the pre-partition flags is British Flags:1922. Regarding the dates for the NI flag, see Coat of arms of Northern Ireland. Despite the name of the {{flag}} template, coats of arms and other emblems are commonly used.
Regarding how the island of Ireland could have a flag, the problem is not that Ireland has no flag, it has too many. See the diversity of flags used to represent Ireland in sport, for example. It is possible for a consensus to develop around one. Or it is also possible for the North/South Ministerial Council to determine one for use to represent Ireland. However, "at this time", there is no single flag that can be said to represent Ireland. --RA (talk) 22:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
One of the central issues is that there needs to be specific guidance for the period of British rule from 1801. A proposal that just ignores that and hopes that no-one will argue over it is no good. We don't necessarily need to say "it's the saltire" or "it's the green one", but we can't just say nothing. Formerip (talk) 23:02, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
On the contrary, we can't say anything, because we have no consensus. My reason for supporting this proposal, apart from the fact that it is better worded generally, is that it takes out a statement that turns out to have no consensus. If we can implement it straight away, we will have a MOS that is more clear and more accurate. That will give us all the time we need to discuss the 19th-century flag. The only real alternative to that would be to take the whole lot back out, pending the outcome of discussions. I said before, and I still believe, that a poll will be needed to try and get a consensus on the 19th-century flag. It might take place here, or at WT:IE, or at WT:IECOLL. But such a poll would take weeks, perhaps months, to close, and there is still no guarantee that a conclusive result would emerge. RA's proposal is a first-class short-term fix, and we need a short-term fix. Scolaire (talk) 23:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
That's not correct, because the normal protocol if there is not consensus is to maintain the status quo. I don't know if the status quo represents the best possible long-term solution, but it beats rashes of arguments all over the place about using the Union Flag, which is what will happen if there is no guidance for any length of time. Formerip (talk) 00:10, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
I think perhaps you're confusing the normal protocol for formally closing AfDs, RMs etc., which is to retain the status quo where there is no consensus, with the current proposal to remove contentious material by consensus. A manual of style has to reflect consensus. It cannot continue to contain guidance once it has been established that that guidance does not have a clear consensus. Perhaps I should also clarify my own position: I think discussion on the 19th‑century flag should resume immediately after the current unsatisfactory text has been replaced. That way arguments about using any flag will be centralised, rather than appearing in rashes. Scolaire (talk) 09:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Support I guess we shouldn't have flags unless there is a halfway good case for them. It would be good if people can agree on something for Northern Ireland, I guess after the current business about flags nobody at Stormont will want to think about anything like that for a while though! Dmcq (talk) 04:11, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose and responses to latest discussion:
  • Hi RA – (1) I’m surprised you can’t see why I object to the way the term “Republic of Ireland” is used. It misleads the reader about what the name of the state is. That’s why. Not complicated; (2) Without getting into much detail, you rejected my remark concerning the dates for the NI flag being wrong. You referred me to an article concerning the Coat of Arms of NI. What is the relevance of the Coat of Arms here? This “box” expressly refers to flags. I see no relevance here. The dates for NI flag are wrong. Simple again, as I see it. (3) Obviously where I say Ireland has no flag, I mean universally recognised flag – I didn’t feel the need to spell that out. My objections to the language around this remain – the language is plain silly in my view. You haven’t suggested why we include this here but not for other places like Hispaniola, Borneo, St Martin etc.
  • Hi Formerip – As to what we should say - we should say the former Ireland had no distinct universally recognised flag. It’s official flag was the Union flag.
  • Hi Scolaire – I disagree that RA's proposal is a first-class short-term fix. I think it is inaccurate, misleading and badly worded. We need to maintain the status quo I think.
Frenchmalawi (talk) 12:20, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment I'd like to support this, but before I do.... I agree with one of Frenchmalawi's points about using the term "Republic of Ireland" in this way. I understand completely why we use it in articles, and why the article title is at that location, etc, etc, but there must be some exceptions and allowances made for when the term is being used in a way that donates it as the official name, which is the impression given in this case. Is there any other way this might be phrased? --HighKing (talk) 14:09, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I'm afraid I can't think of another way. Both Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland are referred to in the same context, which means we can't use "Ireland". Ireland (state), while it would work as an article title, wouldn't work as a heading here. "The current Irish state and its predecessors" would be way too clunky IMO. If anybody can come up with a useable alternative, I will support it. Scolaire (talk) 19:13, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I support the status quo and object to the removal of the Saltire. More rewriting of history at WT:IMOS, as usual. — Jon C.ॐ 18:18, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
    • How can you make those accusations in good faith when we've exhausted the searches for references to support the saltire, and have actually found references that unequivocally state the saltire has no official status? --HighKing (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Maybe because "official status" is not the pointFormerip (talk)
In that case, why not simply include any and all flags? What criteria would you see fit to use? --HighKing (talk) 02:23, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment: There are two ways to shelve the 19th-century flag question. I felt that RA's way was the better way, but nearly all the "opposes" are on the grounds of that line being omitted. The other way is the way that I did it in v1 and v2:

  • {{flag|Ireland|1783}} ( Ireland), 1801-1922 [under discussion]

Would the "opposes" change their vote is that line was re-inserted in v3? Would any "supports" change their votes? Scolaire (talk) 12:06, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

That's my only reason for opposing, and I also wouldn't object to subsequently changing that flag or making it blank, with consensus. So, yes. Formerip (talk) 12:21, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Although I have to say I also don't understand where the harm would be in allowing the option of "Republic of Ireland". Formerip (talk) 12:25, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
The option is allowed, it's just not specifically stated. As I understand RA, the template does not need to be included because it's a secondary template. Scolaire (talk) 12:52, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Ah, OK. Formerip (talk) 13:00, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Or what about simply {{noflag|Ireland|1783}} ( Ireland), 1801-1922) - not all but perhaps some of the opposes might support seeing as now there's no "gap" in the history? --HighKing (talk) 16:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
That is one of the possible outcomes of the coming discussion, but we can't add it to the MOS at this point because there is no consensus for it at this point. If we are going to include that period of history, we have to retain tha status quo, i.e. the saltire, with a tag (in the form of an {{underdiscussion-inline}} template) to show the user that it is under discussion, and therefore liable to change in the coming weeks. To do anything else is to show a bias towards one position. So, the question is, would you personally oppose the current proposal if that was added? Scolaire (talk) 17:02, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Accuracy is everything in an encyclopaedia. It has to be
{{noflag|Ireland|1783}} ( Ireland), 1801-1922)
and
{{noflag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 3 May 1921 - 2 June 1953
{{flag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 2 June 1953 – 30 March 1972
{{noflag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 31 March 1972 onwards
The Union flag was never the flag of Ireland; it was the flag of the state of which Ireland was part. No flag had the same status in 1801-1922 as did the Scottish saltire in Scotland. Brocach (talk) 17:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that's enough of "it has to be" for one discussion, Brocach. Can you point to the Wikipedia policy that governs this, and show how anything other than what you say is in violation, or else restrict yourself like the rest of us to saying "I would prefer to see", please? Scolaire (talk) 18:26, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
FWIW, I also wouldn't object to using the noflag code on the 1801 flag then having a discussion about it, if that will help things along. Formerip (talk) 18:38, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment: For me when reading a nations wikipedia page, I do appreciate seeing a flag or emblem representing that country. But I feel that the flag should only be shown if it has some form of official bearing. If the saltire has no official status then I would of thought using the Union flag or no flag would be the best options. In this case I think the Union Flag should be the default flag if no offical flag exists.Factocop (talk) 17:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Fair comment, Factocop. Would you support putting in the suggested version in the short term if the line "{{flag|Ireland|1783}} ( Ireland), 1801-1922 [under discussion]" was added, pending the outcome of discussions?

Scolaire (talk) 18:30, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Aye, sure.Factocop (talk) 23:16, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I too would support the new version with the Saltire (plus "under discussion", if that's what's required for now) included. — Jon C.ॐ 19:08, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I would also support the new one with the Saltire and under discussion. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 19:33, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Oppose for reasons outlined as before. Frenchmalawi (talk) 23:16, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion v4

Further comment I entirely agree with Brocach and thank him for putting the accurate dates there for every one to see. Good work. Some one suggested that removing some references to Republic of Ireland was not feasible, why not...Here is one way it (and various accuracy points) could be addressed (sorry I don't know how to format this properly) (Thanks Guys !!! This is just a good faith suggestion, I am not saying its perfect - especially about the pre-partition flags, about which I am not personally very familiar Frenchmalawi (talk) 23:16, 7 January 2013 (UTC)):


Flag icons

This section deals with the use of flag icons to represent the island of Ireland and jurisdictions on it. Please see also, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Icons.

Northern Ireland:


  • {{flag|Northern Ireland}}

{{noflag|Ireland|1783}} ( Ireland), 1801-1922)

and
{{noflag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 3 May 1921 - 1 June 1953
{{flag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 2 June 1953 – 30 March 1972
{{noflag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 31 March 1972 onwards
  • {{noflag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 31 March 1972 onwards

Southern Ireland: ( Southern Ireland), 3 May 1921 - 6 December 1922


Irish Free State:

  • {{flag|Irish Free State}} ( Irish Free State), 6 December 1922 - 28 December 1937

Ireland (State):

  • {{flag|Ireland}} ( Ireland), 29 December 1937 onwards

Pre-partition Ireland

That's fine as a representation of your views, FM. However, I'm sure it's obvious based on recent discussion that it's not going to get immediate acceptance. I for one think that a MOS in which holes for flagicons have a majority over icons for flag icons does not look very good. I also think that phrases like "putting the accurate dates there for every one to see" are unnecessarily aggressive: that implies that other participants were trying to conceal the "accurate dates". The facts were already out there. The Coat of arms of Northern Ireland was issued on 2 August 1924 (for the 3 May 1921 state), and the right to display these arms on a banner was exercised from 2 June 1953 as the Ulster Banner. Both of these (being identical) are represented on the NI flagicon (which is not a flag, just an icon), and neither of them was ever the flag of Northern Ireland. All these facts were already stated. Scolaire (talk) 08:35, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
I really think you have got the wrong idea where you refer to me being "agressive". I was simply thanking an editor for putting the dates there (I had been too lazy to do so when I had first raised the issue - see my first post on this page above). I don't think you are assuming good faith. Let's all take a deep breath and relax.
I am not 100% clear what some of your post above meant. I think you were saying that the fact that the NI Coat of Arms was issued in 1924 has some relevance to this flag display box. I don't agree. The box is labelled "Flag icons" - how can it not be about flags? Frenchmalawi (talk) 23:28, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Because MOS:FLAG, on which all of this is based, says "For the purposes of this section of the guideline icons refers to flags and similar images unless otherwise stated". Is a COA similar to a flag? If it is, then a section headed "Flag icons" is about icons representing flags or coats of arms. Scolaire (talk) 07:55, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion v5

The following is RA's "Suggestion v3" with the removal of headings and the replacecement of the saltire with a tag. I am taking the liberty of also [later edit: reverting and] tagging the dates on the NI icon. I'm presuming (which I know is presumptuous) that RA will support this as an interim measure. AFAICT it has the support of myself, Rashers Tierney, Dmcq, HighKing, FormerIP, Factocop, Jon C, and The C of E. It is opposed by Brocach and Frenchmalawi, but both of those disagree with the current version anyway, so it's not as though we'd be taking away something that they wanted to retain as is. I propose that the following be put into the MOS now, and that continuing discussions focus on the 19th-century flag and the dates of the NI flag:

Flag icons

This section deals with the use of flag icons to represent Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland Ireland and the two states of modern Ireland.[edit of 9 Jan per discussion] Please see also, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Icons.

At this time, neither the island of Ireland nor Northern Ireland has a universally recognised flag. If an organisation uses a flag or banner to represent the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland, use that flag or banner to represent teams, bodies or people under its aegis. If that image is copyrighted, it may be possible to use an older public domain alternative if the older flag or banner is not significantly different to the current one (such with as the IRFU banner). If that is not possible, or if the organisation uses no particular flag or banner, do not use any flag.

A series of series of templates have been developed to represent Ireland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland in sporting and other contexts. These can be seen here:

Scolaire (talk) 08:35, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I've probably missed something here, but why have the headings been removed? It makes it far less legible. — Jon C.ॐ 08:57, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
They were removed (a) because HighKing and Frenchmalawi had a problem with "Republic of Ireland" as a heading and I have a problem with "Ireland (state)" (discussion here), and (b) because they are not in the current version, therefore minimal change to the status quo while discussions are ongoing. Scolaire (talk) 09:14, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Note: On the same basis, I am changing the date on the NI icon back to the 1953 date, without adding anything for 1921–53. If something is the subject of ongoing discussion, and as long as it is tagged as such, it should remain at the status quo pending the outcome of that discussion. Scolaire (talk) 09:21, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Support as per previous discussions --HighKing (talk) 17:20, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

The current flag of Northern Ireland [1]. Seems like it's referenced. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 23:43, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

You might need to read the whole talk page, Dave. Somewhere in there we agreed that FOTW is not a reliable source. Scolaire (talk) 07:57, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose: It still has a number or problems that could easily be addressed - inaccuracies and inconsistencies.
  • (1) why use the wordy and unnecessarily controversial wording "flag icons to represent Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland." when something small like "flag icons to represent jurisdictions on the island of Ireland" or if the word "jurisdictions" is not liked, something else could be picked. The proposed wording also includes a technical inaccuracy - contemporary Ireland wasn't even a Republic for all of its duration...No need to get bogged down in any of this (or use the ROI term) if a simpler wording is chosen.
  • (2) why not either (A) include "no flag" icons for NI for the period before it got its flag and include a "no flag" icon for SI (Southern Ireland) for the relevant period)...or easier, simply not have any "no flags" at all (i.e. where there was no flag for a jurisdiction during a particular period, just don't show a flag for it). Either approach would seem fine I think.
  • (3) the Saltire is inaccurate - it had no offical status during the period.
Frenchmalawi (talk) 00:09, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
FM, on your point (1), it was me who added that text, without any real discussion and I'm not precious about it, so there's no reason it can't be changed (as far as I'm concerned - other editors may disagree). FWIW, surely pre-Republic Ireland is represented in the phrase by the word "Ireland".
I don't see how it makes sense to object because of (2) and (3). The above proposal includes a good faith understanding that you main objections here will remain open to discussion and, potentially, you can still get your way if you support the proposal. If your oppose results in no-consensus (although, BTW, no-one gets a veto here), then you will most probably just have to live with the status quo and no further discussion (that is likely to go anywhere).
The only part that isn't explicitly still up for discussion is Southern Ireland. But since, AFAIK, Southern Ireland never on its own account had any sports teams, signed any treaties etc, the flagicon probably has no practical use anyway. And even, with that said, there's no reason a new discussion can't be opened up about it. Formerip (talk) 00:36, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time to give a thoughtful reply.
Noted re pt. 1. In the next version, lets put in a nice neutral wording that doesn't need to refer to ROI. On your aside "surely pre-Republic Ireland is represented in the phrase by the word "Ireland"....I think surely you will agree that what is meant by that "Ireland" is the island, otherwise, why would you list the state twice...? After all, the State named Ireland and the State described as the ROI are one and the same (not successors or anything like that)! But this is an aside and if we get a nice neutral wording, this falls away.
Re pt. 2, don't you think it looks a bit silly to show a "no flag" icon (in respect of NI) for the period after 1972 but not do so for the period before 1952? Similarly, if "no flag" gets listed, why wouldn't "Southern Ireland" get listed with "no flag". To my mind, the far neater thing to do is simply include the flags in respect of the times when there were flags and avoid the consistency need to list all these "no flag" periods etc. Do you get my point?
Re. pt. 3, in the interests of making progres, I'd rather we move ahead with a tempate that reflects these other points even if it does include the Saltire. So I am with you on that. Thanks. Frenchmalawi (talk) 01:21, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
So you're saying, leave "{{flag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 2 June 1953 – 30 March 1972[under discussion]" and remove "{{noflag|Northern Ireland}} ( Northern Ireland), 31 March 1972 onwards"? I think that is a brilliant idea! It never occurred to me as an option. I would absolutely support that as an interim wording. Scolaire (talk) 08:11, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

So close to supporting this, but where's poor old Southern Ireland gone? — Jon C.ॐ 08:59, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Basically, what Frenchmalawi said. If we have a flag we show it, if we don't we leave it out. Southern Ireland can certainly be discussed, but we don't have a unique flag for it (and the template that's there is not in use anywhere anyway) so we leave it out of the interim version. Scolaire (talk) 11:18, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Got it. Support! — Jon C.ॐ 11:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Now if we could just agree to treat Ireland 1801-1922 in exactly the same way - i.e. omit that line - I would also support. Brocach (talk) 12:40, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Unfortunately, too many people will oppose if that line is omitted. That's why it had to be put back. It's different from SI in that it does have a "flag" that is unique to it. But, again, the proposal is only to tag that "flag" (the one that's already there) as under discussion, and then get down to discussing it. Scolaire (talk) 13:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Scolaire! No one ever says things I say are brilliant so appreciated!
I am glad we are making progress. From my perspective, the remaining point outstanding is to decide what words follow "flag icons to represent...."
I don't like "Ireland and the two states of modern Ireland" - There are various reasons I could get into to explain why I don't like it and certain inconsistencies the wording gives rise to....But maybe its better given how advanced we are to simply suggest another wording....How about "historic and contemporary states established on the island of Ireland"? That wording seems pretty accurate, not controversial and uncomplicated to me. Frenchmalawi (talk) 23:20, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Do we need "established"? "Historic and contemporary states on the island of Ireland" would do me. Scolaire (talk) 08:15, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
-Ok let's take "established out". Support!! Frenchmalawi (talk) 23:58, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

To pick up on the Northern Ireland flag issue agasin, please show me where FOTW is rated as not a reliable source. Also, the Union Flag IS the flag of Northern Irlenad and there are countless other online references stating this, so why is it not acknowledged here? BlackPrinceDave (talk) 18:36, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

See Wales, England and Scotland. RashersTierney (talk) 20:44, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I've seen them. What am I looking for? BlackPrinceDave (talk) 21:33, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Flag icons at the respective infoboxes. RashersTierney (talk) 21:40, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
To answer your question, Dave, it's a long discussion with an awful lot of posts, so I'm reluctant to search for the exact diff. It's in the #Saltire representing Ireland 1801-1922 discussion somewhere. Basically, FOTW is a discussion forum hosted by a flag retail store in Maryland. Members (sometimes) cite what they consider to be reliable sources, but if you just link to the FOTW page, it generally means that you haven't actually tried to verify any of those sources for yourself. HighKing demonstrated that in many cases, what's actually being said is different to what appears to be being said. Feel free to join the NI flag discussion once it gets started in earnest, but for the moment we're hoping to get a stop-gap MOS guideline in place so as to allow serious discussion to begin. Scolaire (talk) 22:05, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

We haven't had a response from everybody yet, but I think there are enough "supports", especially from former "opposes", to go ahead with this edit as the least divisive version pending discussion. The next question is: what format sould the discussion take? I would suggest that, rather than prolong this 100+kb thread and continue talking across one another, we open two brand new threads, one headed "Flag of Ireland 1801–1922" and one headed "NI flag" (and a third one headed "Southern Ireland" if somebody wants to discuss that). That will allow discussions on the different aspects to continue in parallel, and also allow one line of the MOS to be edited at a time, if consensus is reached on one issue. Scolaire (talk) 22:33, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Yep. Brocach (talk) 22:40, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Fine by me. RashersTierney (talk) 22:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Flag of Ireland 1801–1922

I will make the case for the Green Flag later, depending on the response to the following comment:

When I looked at the new edit this morning, I realised that I am almost as confused as I was by the previous version. There is a header that says the section "deals with the use of flag icons to represent historic and contemporary states", and a footer that says that templates also exist "to represent [countries] in sporting and other contexts (italics added in both cases). Does this mean that the section does not deal with anything other than icons to represent the state as a state, in articles, lists or infoboxes that contain lists of states? Examples of that would be the Balkans article, the infobox of World War II, and the List of sovereign states in 1768. If that is so, then Ireland between 1801 and 1922 cannot be represented because it was not a state in any sense of the word: it was not sovereign, it could not make war, and it was not one of the countries of northern or western Europe (the United Kingdom was). Some clarity is needed here, therefore. Scolaire (talk) 08:53, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Well spotted. The word "state" is wrong here - Northern Ireland has never been one - and "country" is equally awkward, as is "nation"; perhaps it should refer to "government" or "polity". Brocach (talk) 11:32, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
There isn't a exhaustive set of templates for all contexts except "sovereign state", so the generic flag icon would be used in all cases where nothing else applies. There are plenty of flagicons which exist but do not represent sovereign states (e.g.  Catalonia,  European Union,  Royal Navy). The mistake would be including Ireland in List of sovereign states in 1768, rather than giving it a flag. Formerip (talk) 11:41, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
My question isn't about semantics, it's about what the MOS is giving us guidance about. It seems that it is not about biographies or sports or "any other contexts", but solely about the state/country/nation/polity. So can anybody give me an example of an article where a flagicon for 19th-century Ireland as a state/country/nation/polity is used, or ought to be used? Because of the fact that it is a template variant and not a template, I can't find any way of searching for those articles, but I can't think of any such article where the inclusion of Ireland in a list would be appropriate. By the way, the same pretty well goes for the earlier flags as well - not that I can't imagine an article where they might be used for the state/country/nation/polity, but that I don't believe there is such an article as of now. Scolaire (talk) 14:45, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
@FormerIP: Do you know of any article where Catalonia appears in a list of polities on the Iberian Peninsula, or on the continent of Europe generally. If you can't, then you'll know what I'm talking about. As for the EU and the Royal Navy, those are not icons for "states" of any sort; they would come under "other contexts" and therefore wouldn't be included in any corresponding MOS. Scolaire (talk) 14:51, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure what part of the MOS you are looking at, Scolaire, but take a look at the note at the top of MOS:FLAG. Formerip (talk) 15:50, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Obviously I looked at that note, FIP, since I quoted it above. But if you now look at the note on the top of IMOS#Flag icons, you'll see it doesn't cover regions, organisations etc. They all come under "sporting and other contexts". What I meant to say was that if there was a corresponding MOS for, say, Europe, with the identical wording to IMOS, the EU and Royal Navy flag would not be covered by it, and the Catalan flag would be as contentious as this one is ("It's a nationalist banner" etc.). Scolaire (talk) 09:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Scolaire that there may be very few instances, if any, where this icon might be needed, but these discussions are of value nonetheless in that they explore some of the ethical, political and even philosophical issues relating to the neutral, factual encyclopaedic approach. Plus it's a bit of craic.
It's fine to note in a generic context such as at MOS:FLAG that "Terms such as "country" and "nation" as used below should be understood to also apply to other uses of flags, such as national subdivisions, international organisations, etc." but that doesn't justify using such terms in specific contexts where they simply don't apply, such as "states" in the current IMOS wording. I think "polity" is probably the most accurate but as it's much more familiar I would go with "government", unless someone has a better plan.Brocach (talk) 21:21, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
OK, I think I was misunderstanding. Of course it shouldn't say "states". Is that all we're talking about? Formerip (talk) 23:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Given the glacial pace of change here, let's see if we can get agreement on an alternative to "states", then move on to the bigger question of whether the red X represents Ireland 1801-1922. Propose "This section deals with the use of flag icons to represent current and former governments on the island of Ireland." Brocach (talk) 00:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
That's a bit restrictive. Not all of the flags proposed represent a government. It's quite a tough one. Maybe "...to represent national and sub-national territories in Ireland". Formerip (talk) 01:42, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Or that; happy with either. Brocach (talk) 01:46, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

The thing is, if you change those words, you change the whole meaning of the guideline. RA used the word "jurisdiction". To him, obviously (and this is what I didn't get for a long time), the section is about indicating what régime is or was in power in a given place at a given time. That's why he continued to argue against the "nationalist" green flag for a time when the régime was pro-union. If you change it to "national territory" then it's no longer about that, because the "state" and the "nation" are two very different things. That's why I'm talking about clarity. First, we need to know what the guideline is for, then we can propose wording that reflects that. Scolaire (talk) 09:49, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

By the way, Northern Ireland may not be a state according to the dictionary definition of a state, but it is frequently called a state, and always has been. That is verifiable: just search for "Northern Ireland state" on Google Books. There is nothing inherently wrong with using the word "state" here in a way in which it is used in the literature. Scolaire (talk) 10:03, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Flag of Northern Ireland

I will open this discussion by re-iterating a few things I said previously: MOS:FLAG, on which all of this is based, says "For the purposes of this section of the guideline icons refers to flags and similar images unless otherwise stated". Is a coat of arms similar to a flag? I think the answer is obviously, yes. What is a coat of arms? Effectively, it is the escutcheon. In the case of the Coat of arms of Northern Ireland, it was the escutcheon only that was designed in April 1923, granted a Royal warrant George V and issued on August 2, 1924. It is this that is represented on the NI flagicon, as well as on the Ulster Banner. Per MOS:FLAG, therefore, this icon is a flag for the purposes of representing what we may call the "Old Stormont" for the whole of its existence from 1921 to 1972. Scolaire (talk) 09:14, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I can't understand what this debate is about. Northern Ireland has a flag, the Union Flag. It's not exclusive to Northern Ireland, but that's no reason to omit it. Concerning the point mentioned above by Scolaire, why is FOTW not a reputable source? It is merely sponsored by that outpfit in Maryland. I think they provide web hosting. It is one of the most respected vexillological sites on the web and even has its own Wikipedia article Flags of the World. It gives the flag of Northern Irleand as the Union Flag from 1973 on (and we know this is true anyway). So what's all the fuss about? Where there's a need to put up a flag on Wikipedia for Northern Ireland it's the Union Flag. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 21:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Is the Union Flag not the flag of the United Kingdom? (innocent face) Brocach (talk) 21:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, and of Northern Ireland also. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 21:38, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Hang on - this is a discussion as to whether what the MOS currently says should be changed. Saying that what is in the MOS is fine because it is what is in the MOS is not exactly rigorous logic. Brocach (talk) 21:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose for reason previously stated, the objective fact that this flag was created only in 1953; the flag used by Stormont prior to that date was the Union Flag, and I hope no-one thinks that would do here, simply because it was not and has never been a flag peculiar to Northern Ireland. There is no problem with not showing a flag for periods (1921-53 and '72 onwards) when there definitely was no such thing as a Northern Ireland flag. To extend the application of a relatively short-lived flag back in time would be like using the United States flag to represent pre-conquest North America. Brocach (talk) 11:38, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
    • The objective fact is that the image was created in 1923, specifically for the state of Northern Ireland. Since MOS:FLAG says an icons are "flags and similar images", there is no extending back in time: the image qualifies as a flag icon. Scolaire (talk) 14:17, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Scolaire: Northern Ireland was not, is not and, I hazard, never will be a state.
The coat of arms to which you refer was created for a very select group of Protestant Unionist men, the Executive Committee of the Privy Council for Northern Ireland. It was not created as a flag of the region, and there was no flag for which that status was claimed until 1953. That flag survived only 19 years and has since had no official status. There is something absurd in trying to stretch a 19-year banner 32 years into the past and, as some also want, 41+ years into the future. There is no flag of Northern Ireland now, there was none from 1921 until 1953. These are the facts. Brocach (talk) 21:47, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
No they are not. The flag of N.Ireland is the Union Flag now, and that can be referenced. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 21:54, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Reference it, if you would be so kind. We all thought that the Union Flag belonged to the United Kingdom. But in any case, what we are talking about here is the period 1921-1953, which isn't "now" in Earth time. Brocach (talk) 22:01, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh sorry, I obviously mis-read the title of this section. I though it said "Flag of Northern Ireland". Silly me for getting it wrong. It obviously says "Flag of Northern Ireland 1921-1953". How could I have missed that. Anyway here's a reference [2] and there are lots more, but this one, FOTW, is the most well known. And as for it belonging to the United Kingdom, yes, correct! It also happens to be the official flag of Northern Ireland, now. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 22:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Your source is a "retail store located in Glen Burnie, Maryland". The retail store located in Glen Burnie, Maryland, provides flags for England, Scotland and Wales that belong solely to those jurisdictions. It doesn't provide a flag for Northern Ireland that belongs solely to that jurisdiction because there is no flag that belongs solely to that jurisdiction. Brocach (talk) 22:19, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
No, see what I said above, but here it is again; the Maryland lot only sponsor FOTW. Anyway, you are right about the flag not belonging soley to the N.Ireland jurisdiction, so what? I repeat, not for the first time, the Union Flag is the official flag of N.Ireland. Your argument that it shouldn't be used because it's not exclusive to N.Ireland is a red herring. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 22:25, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Which law made the St George's Cross the flag of England, Brocach? — Jon C.ॐ 21:53, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Custom and practice, Scol, thought you would know that. How many pics have you got of the Ulster Banner in use before the Ulster Banner was created in 1953? Brocach (talk) 21:56, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not Scol, and that's my point exactly – the flag of England is officially, legally, whatever, on a par with the flag of Northern Ireland (the Banner). Custom and practice. — Jon C.ॐ 22:02, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
So you aren't, very sorry, trying to type with distance glasses... the flag of England was adopted to represent England some 400 years before the Ulster Banner was adopted in 1953. How long before the Ulster Banner was adopted in 1953 was the Ulster Banner adopted to represent Northern Ireland? Brocach (talk) 22:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
We're arguing different points here. Mine was a response to the "... and, as some also want, 41+ years into the future" quip. — Jon C.ॐ 22:17, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll concede that point once the 1953-72 Banner has been established by 400 years of custom and practice as the sole and uncontested flag of Northern Ireland. Hang on - you might not live that long - let's say 100 years. Brocach (talk) 22:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Cool, 100 suits me. 2023 isn't that far away. — Jon C.ॐ 14:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. As I've said before a wikipage of this nature doesnt look right without some sort of flag and in this case the Coat of Arms is very pretty and it does seem to have official status of sorts.Factocop (talk) 13:58, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
The Coat of Arms has no legal status as the armiger no longer exists; and if prettiness is a criterion I'll go with a snapshot of Lucinda Williams. She was born in 1953, just like the Ulster Banner. Fortunately, unlike the Ulster Banner she survived 1972 and is still very much alive and kicking. Brocach (talk) 21:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
I think what BlackPrinceDave means, bless him, is Oppose. Dave, those other Supports are for using a flag that, unlike the Union Flag, did not exist in 1921-72. Brocach (talk) 21:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
No, you arsehole, that is not what I mean. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 21:38, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh sorry. So you don't oppose the proposal not to use the Union Flag? Brocach (talk) 21:49, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Here's a reference, from an exceptionally reputable source, for the (current) flag of Northern Ireland [3]. Brocach, I can't understand why you didn't tell us about this one. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 22:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more that CAIN are a fine bunch of lads. You may have overlooked the intro to the article you cite, which says that its author was "then a temporary research student at INCORE. The views expressed in this section do not necessarily reflect the views of members of the CAIN Project." Find me one reference to that temporary research student's expertise in the matter and I'll give his opinions due weight.
The fact is: the flag of the United Kingdom is the flag of the United Kingdom; it is not the flag of Scotland (the saltire), not the flag of Wales (the dragon), not the flag of England (St George's Cross), and not the flag of Northern Ireland (which only had a flag between 1953 and 1972). Brocach (talk) 00:42, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, the Union Flag has official status in Northern Ireland, but that doesn't make it the flag of Northern Ireland, any more than the flag of the EU is the flag of Spain or the Stars and Stripes is the flag of Texas. Formerip (talk) 01:50, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Dear Brocach, I'm amazed at how little you know about an institution of which you are, or were, a part. Quote; "A standard disclaimer would be included which would inform anyone consulting the article that the views expressed were those of the author(s) and not necessarily those of members of the CAIN Project.". This applies to all contributors to CAIN. Now, are you sayig that CAIN is a not a reliable source, and that it publishes unverifiable or potentially inaccurate material? I think CAIN would qualify as a reputable source, but if you think otherwise, well not to worry, but you might like to tell us what you think. There are many reputable sources stating that the Union Flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland. Here's another from a UK government source [4]. It states, "The only official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag although the banner of the former Government of Northern Ireland, which was dissolved in1972, is sometimes unofficially used. ". This was the first UK Government Google hit I came across, and I don't propose to trawl through all the others just to satisfy your unreasonable requirements. The fact is clear. The Union Flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland, though I accept, of course, that Northern Ireland does not have exclusive use of it. If this MOS ultimately comes up with some "guideline" to the contrary, then editors would be well advised to ignore it; it would have absolutely no standing in the Wikipedia community, having been cobbled together by people with a political axe to grind. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 12:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't matter that the "official" flag of NI is the Union Flag. The Union Flag does not not uniquely represent NI. Somebody seeing a Union Jack flagicon in a list or an infobox doesn't think "Northern Ireland" (if they did they'd be wrong over 90% of the time). You may as well just use {{flag|United Kingdom}} and just say  United Kingdom, which is "officially" the case anyway! So all this going round in circles about whether CAIN is a reliable source or not is pointless. Scolaire (talk) 13:39, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes that's the basic reason not to use the union flag. We're not trying to denote who controls a place, we're trying to give a quick indicator of the place itself. Any sort of emblem that did that fairly unambiguously and without causing too much opposition would do. Dmcq (talk) 15:41, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
But there isn't one. So we should do without.
Since Dave suggested otherwise, I will say I've never been "a part of" CAIN, but was not too far away when it started out, and I have always thought it a great resource. The disclaimer on the flags piece, though, has to be taken seriously. CAIN publishes many things that it does not corporately endorse, and I don't believe that those who run it would be offended by the suggestion that not everything published on the site is 100% accurate. I can't find anything that suggests the author of that piece on flags was or is an expert; it's intended to be, and is, a handy introduction to the topic rather than a scholarly treatise. It quotes no sources, and contains some other questionable statements ("the colour green was seen as exclusively Catholic"; odd dates for siege of Derry).
Dave, I think you're falling a little short of the ideal yourself in relation to assuming good faith on the part of others who volunteer their time here. The fact that I, among others, profoundly disagree with you on a technical point about the status of a flag does not mean that you can bandy about accusations of political motivation. That would be like someone suggesting that you displayed a Unionist bias in your approach. Are we not all here to try to ensure that Wikipedia is accurate and neutral? Brocach (talk) 16:08, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Clearly there's no point in continuing the debate here with the most recent contributors, who are bending over backwards to find every excuse they can not to acknowledge verifiable facts and are in denial of the truth. To state that we should not display the flag of Northern Ireland because it's not exlcusively theirs is one of the most pervese arguments I've come across recently. Of course we could always use the Ulster Banner. Official or not, it DOES unambiguously identify Northern Ireland. So there you have it; UB or UF? Take your pick. UF is best, becauase it is the current, official flag. Any more excuses not to use it? Anyway, "Manual of Style". It's becoming a bit more than that, isn't it? It's being used to drive political statements, so I don't know about the rest of you, but in the limited editing I do I should think I'll ignore it and consider each case on its merits. By the way, spot the weasel words in the current "MOS"; "At this time, neither the island of Ireland nor Northern Ireland has a universally recognised flag.". Time to move on. I'll say again, we don't have a MOS here. Brocach, your remarks about CAIN are laughable in the extreme. If the source supported your views I'm sure you'd be telling us it was the most reputable publication the world had ever known. aahahahah lol. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 17:13, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
The Union Flag doesn't identify Northern Ireland so I'd go with either the Ulster Banner or Saint Patrick's Saltire. I think the Saint Patrick Saltire would cause the least aggro and it has been used officially recently to represent the place like on police badges so my vote would be for that. Dmcq (talk) 17:35, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm back, so soon! Yes, interestingly the Saltire does have official recognition from the British Government as a flag to represent Northern Ireland (I noticed some government souces to that effect), so it could be a possibility if we're looking for something to uniquely identify the province that has official status. I'd prefer the Union Flag, but if we can move forward with the Saltire then fine. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 17:50, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
It was used to represent NI in Her Maj's jubilee pageant, if I recall correctly. — Jon C.ॐ 17:56, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Yep, page 5. It's also flown at Whitehall alongside George, Andy and the Dragon. — Jon C.ॐ 18:00, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Good enough then. Looks like we may have a solution. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 18:02, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
If the Saltire is acceptable, then that could be quite a neat solution, particularly since we have recent evidence of it in ceremonial use. We wouldn't need to worry about blank periods and we could just have two flags going all the way back to 1801. One for Ireland as part of the UK and one for independent Ireland. Formerip (talk) 18:57, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Except that it is not acceptable. Stop someone in the street in any part of Northern Ireland and ask them if a red X flag represents them. Brocach (talk) 02:15, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Brocach. It would be nice if the flag question could be solved as easily as this in the real world, but we all know it can't. Wikipedia is about the real world. We're not discussing what HMG will allow to be flown over certain buildings on certain days, but what image uniquely and recognisably represents a political entity. Scolaire (talk) 10:56, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
...And clearly the only unique symbol there is for NI is the Ulster Banner. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 11:02, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, "what image uniquely and recognisably represents a political entity". In the case of Northern Ireland it does appear that we're looking at the Ulster Banner to fulfil such a role. However, if the obvious choice of the Union Flag is not acceptable to some editors then I can only think that we do go for the Saltire. What is clearly unacceptable is to have nothing. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 13:58, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
I'd prefer something, but having nothing is acceptable. Anyway we want something to represent the place in Wikipedia, asking if a red cross represents them when they have the Union Flag, the Ulster Banner and the Irish Tricolour to also choose from is rather missing the point I think. Dmcq (talk) 14:08, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
And to come to a decision we don't carry out a poll of people in Northern Ireland. To my mind it needs to be an official UK symbol that represents Northern Ireland, so the Saltire would do it. BlackPrinceDave (talk) 14:27, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
If we don't carry out a poll of people in Northern Ireland, we certainly don't ask some government department! The red X is not a recognisable symbol of NI, whether it's "recognised" by HMG or not. Scolaire (talk) 16:08, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Support - Though on the red X: it was good enough to be chosen as the central part of the Police Service of Northern Ireland badge, which was created to be more neutral and less-divisive. Mabuska (talk) 11:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Support the red X - Saint Patrick's Saltire - for the same reasons as Mabuska. Dmcq (talk) 12:10, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

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