Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Jesse L. Brown/archive1
Addressed comments from Crisco 1492
[edit]- General
This is a US topic, so it should be MM-DD-YYYY.- See WP:MOS#Choice of format, please. - Dank (push to talk) 03:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Right, there's an exclusion for military topics. Sorry. Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- See WP:MOS#Choice of format, please. - Dank (push to talk) 03:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Serial commas should probably be used, as the article should be in American English- I've never seen this recommendation at FAC before. - Dank (push to talk) 03:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- From the Serial comma article, "In American English, the serial comma is standard usage in non-journalistic writing that follows the Chicago Manual of Style." I personally prefer the serial comma for American topics, although Ed may disagree. Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Are you saying that he has to insert them, or are you just making him aware of serial comma? (Chicago and Garner's also support the serial comma, btw.) The problem is that nothing succeeds like excess, and most text that most people see nowadays omits the serial comma, even if that text is derided as "journalistic", so this is a very hard battle to win, and WP:MOS#Serial commas lets editors go either way (and is worth reading). - Dank (push to talk) 13:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I work based on AP Style, which sometimes creeps into my contributions. I was under the impression that no serial commas are fine as long as it is consistent in the article. Is that not the case? —Ed!(talk) 00:06, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- It is. Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:58, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- I work based on AP Style, which sometimes creeps into my contributions. I was under the impression that no serial commas are fine as long as it is consistent in the article. Is that not the case? —Ed!(talk) 00:06, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Are you saying that he has to insert them, or are you just making him aware of serial comma? (Chicago and Garner's also support the serial comma, btw.) The problem is that nothing succeeds like excess, and most text that most people see nowadays omits the serial comma, even if that text is derided as "journalistic", so this is a very hard battle to win, and WP:MOS#Serial commas lets editors go either way (and is worth reading). - Dank (push to talk) 13:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- From the Serial comma article, "In American English, the serial comma is standard usage in non-journalistic writing that follows the Chicago Manual of Style." I personally prefer the serial comma for American topics, although Ed may disagree. Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I've never seen this recommendation at FAC before. - Dank (push to talk) 03:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Lede
"In spite of encountering deep-seated institutionalized racism, ..." is there a semantic difference between "deep-seated" and "institutionalized" racism?- There is, but I don't mind shortening this. - Dank (push to talk)
"... flew 20 combat missions before his F4U Corsair aircraft was shot down on a remote mountaintop ..." -- Surely his plane was shot down over the mountaintop. If he was on it at the time, he wouldn't have been shot down.- Stet. It's a common phrase meaning that's where his plane landed; "he was shot down and crashed into a remote mountaintop" is unnecessarily wordy when there's a handy shorthand. - Dank (push to talk)
- When I hear "shot down", generally I think of the actual shooting and not the crash landing, hence the over. In this case, "shot down and crashed on a mountaintop behind enemy lines" or something similar may be okay. Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I went with "came under fire and crashed on a remote mountaintop". - Dank (push to talk) 17:02, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- When I hear "shot down", generally I think of the actual shooting and not the crash landing, hence the over. In this case, "shot down and crashed on a mountaintop behind enemy lines" or something similar may be okay. Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Stet. It's a common phrase meaning that's where his plane landed; "he was shot down and crashed into a remote mountaintop" is unnecessarily wordy when there's a handy shorthand. - Dank (push to talk)
- "
... inspirational successes..." -- Inspirational according to?- I've deleted "inspirational". - Dank (push to talk)
- Education
This should be in American English, so I'd write football instead of American football.- Not sure what the consensus is on this. - Dank (push to talk)
- WP:Commonality - American football is preferred. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sounds good.
- WP:Commonality - American football is preferred. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Not sure what the consensus is on this. - Dank (push to talk)
- department store should probably not be linked (common word)
- Same with
Boxcarand dry cleaner- Some of these common words are really common only in AmE - "boxcar", for example, is usually "van" in BrE. In such cases, linking is helpful. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Scratched boxcar.
- I'm leaving the linking issues for others per my standard disclaimer. - Dank (push to talk) 17:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think all the links are there. —Ed!(talk) 00:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Do you mean you think they are okay there? Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:55, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I've added all links. —Ed!(talk) 10:20, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
- Do you mean you think they are okay there? Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:55, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think all the links are there. —Ed!(talk) 00:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm leaving the linking issues for others per my standard disclaimer. - Dank (push to talk) 17:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Scratched boxcar.
- Some of these common words are really common only in AmE - "boxcar", for example, is usually "van" in BrE. In such cases, linking is helpful. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
"Brown enlisted in the US Naval Reserve on 8 July 1946 and was admitted to the aviation program, becoming a Seaman Apprentice in the US Navy and a member of the school's Naval Reserve Officers' Training Corps program, giving him a USD50 stipend each month and allowing him to quit his jobs and complete his architectural engineering degree in 1947." -- A little bit of a run on. This should probably be split into two sentences.- Agreed.
- "
...but only 14 out of over 5,600 NROTC students in 1947 were Negroes." -- As far as I remember, Negroes is considered outdated in modern American parlance. A different word, perhaps?- Agreed.
- Military career
Is linking trainer aircraft necessary?- It's a consistency thing with aircraft. We link fighter aircraft, fighter bomber, transport aircraft etc to help distinguish what type of aircraft is being mentioned. —Ed!(talk) 00:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I doubt an in-depth understanding of the craft type is necessary here, but for consistency's sake... Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:55, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- It's a consistency thing with aircraft. We link fighter aircraft, fighter bomber, transport aircraft etc to help distinguish what type of aircraft is being mentioned. —Ed!(talk) 00:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Not sure on this, but I think Life Magazine should be either Life magazine or Life Magazine; I don't recall Magazine being part of the title- Leaving this for the sourcing experts. - Dank (push to talk) 17:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- You're right. I fixed it. —Ed!(talk) 00:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Leaving this for the sourcing experts. - Dank (push to talk) 17:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Korean war
- "
... these efforts alone did not stop the North Korean Army juggernaut on its southern advance." -- Juggernaut does not seem NPOV to me.- I don't see what irrational or inappropriate conclusion a reader is likely to draw from the word. I see its meaning here as situational. - Dank (push to talk) 04:02, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I see "juggernaut" as being a near synonym to "unstoppable", which is a POV (especially since they ultimately lost). Not too major an issue though. Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Owing to a number of factors, the North Koreans were unstoppable at this time. That's the opinion of the sources. Later, they were stoppable. - Dank (push to talk) 17:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Fair enough.
- Owing to a number of factors, the North Koreans were unstoppable at this time. That's the opinion of the sources. Later, they were stoppable. - Dank (push to talk) 17:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I see "juggernaut" as being a near synonym to "unstoppable", which is a POV (especially since they ultimately lost). Not too major an issue though. Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see what irrational or inappropriate conclusion a reader is likely to draw from the word. I see its meaning here as situational. - Dank (push to talk) 04:02, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Is linking aircraft carrier, battleship, and cruiser necessary?- Once again, these links provide a more specific designator of the types of ships he served on. I've worked with ship articles, and the standard on Wikipedia seems to be including links to help the layman understand the nature of the ships more easily, since their names don't really help explain what kinds of ships they are. —Ed!(talk) 00:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Per above. Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:55, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Once again, these links provide a more specific designator of the types of ships he served on. I've worked with ship articles, and the standard on Wikipedia seems to be including links to help the layman understand the nature of the ships more easily, since their names don't really help explain what kinds of ships they are. —Ed!(talk) 00:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Death
- Is linking executive officer, helicopter, fire extinguisher necessary?
- I tend to think so, as executive officer is uncommon military jargon, helicopter is another aircraft designator, and fire extinguisher may go by other terms internationally. —Ed!(talk) 00:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'd question helicopter being linked, as it is fairly ubiquitous. Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:55, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Unlinked it. —Ed!(talk) 10:20, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'd question helicopter being linked, as it is fairly ubiquitous. Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:55, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- I tend to think so, as executive officer is uncommon military jargon, helicopter is another aircraft designator, and fire extinguisher may go by other terms internationally. —Ed!(talk) 00:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- "
... at 14:40 Koenig radioed to Brown that he appeared to be trailing fuel." -- Local time, UTC? Also, the he is ambiguous here... I first read it as meaning Koenig.- Ed!, if you add a time zone, don't add it here, add it to 13:38 above. I don't have a preference on the second "he" ... there's a lot of disagreement over the best way to say "he told him that he ..." or "he told him that his ...". - Dank (push to talk) 04:59, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Right, 13:38. Sorry, missed that.
- Clarified Korea Standard Time. —Ed!(talk) 00:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Right, 13:38. Sorry, missed that.
- Ed!, if you add a time zone, don't add it here, add it to 13:38 above. I don't have a preference on the second "he" ... there's a lot of disagreement over the best way to say "he told him that he ..." or "he told him that his ...". - Dank (push to talk) 04:59, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
"15-degree weather" -- Convert template please- Fixed. —Ed!(talk) 00:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- "Hudner attempted in vain to rescue Brown, before intentionally crash landing his aircraft to attempt to pull Brown from the burning wreck before running to Brown's side and attempting to wrestle him free from the wreck." -- Repetition. Perhaps "Hudner attempted in vain to rescue Brown, intentionally crash landing his aircraft, running to Brown's side, and attempting to wrestle him free from the wreck."
- I can't get an image for what it means to attempt unsuccessfully to rescue Brown. - Dank (push to talk) 17:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- From his account, it sounds like Hudner was trying to radio Brown through some kind of post-crash checklist so that he could get himself out of the aircraft, but since Brown was in trouble, Hudner crashed his own aircraft. —Ed!(talk) 00:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Is it more explicit in the source? If it is, an explanation to that effect would be really useful. It would make it clearer that there were two attempts. Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:55, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Fixed. I think that's everything. —Ed!(talk) 10:20, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
- Is it more explicit in the source? If it is, an explanation to that effect would be really useful. It would make it clearer that there were two attempts. Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:55, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- From his account, it sounds like Hudner was trying to radio Brown through some kind of post-crash checklist so that he could get himself out of the aircraft, but since Brown was in trouble, Hudner crashed his own aircraft. —Ed!(talk) 00:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- I can't get an image for what it means to attempt unsuccessfully to rescue Brown. - Dank (push to talk) 17:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- "
... likely due to heavy air presence of Brown and Hudner's unit." -- Feels like we're missing a "the" here- Fixed. - Dank (push to talk) 17:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Nice read and I agree that it's inspiring, but we cannot editorialize. Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for your edits. I've reverted two of the punctuation edits; please see WP:Checklist#appositive, and I've removed the semicolons in "Daisy Brown Thorne (who had remarried), Pamela Brown, and Hudner, who gave a dedication." - Dank (push to talk) 04:19, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I don't agree that "to an impoverished family" is an apositive. If the wording were "Born to an impoverished family in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, ..." then the comma after "family" would seem quite out of place. Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
WP:Checklist#appositive links to the talk page withWT:Checklist has citations to style guides that support a comma after the appositive "Mississippi". It's a little complicated, and it's true that the comma is omitted more and more often, but I'd prefer that writers use it since most of the style guides are still recommending it and since the omission affects the meaning in a few sentences. I'd definitely prefer that reviewers not insist on removing it. - Dank (push to talk) 13:04, 7 March 2012 (UTC)- Right. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm leaning support now, just a few minor things. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think I've responded to everything. Let me know if I missed anything. —Ed!(talk) 00:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- OK. Now I think I've got it all. —Ed!(talk) 10:20, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think I've responded to everything. Let me know if I missed anything. —Ed!(talk) 00:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm leaning support now, just a few minor things. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Right. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I don't agree that "to an impoverished family" is an apositive. If the wording were "Born to an impoverished family in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, ..." then the comma after "family" would seem quite out of place. Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for your edits. I've reverted two of the punctuation edits; please see WP:Checklist#appositive, and I've removed the semicolons in "Daisy Brown Thorne (who had remarried), Pamela Brown, and Hudner, who gave a dedication." - Dank (push to talk) 04:19, 7 March 2012 (UTC)