Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2012-07-23/Paid editing
Does Wikipedia Pay? The Skeptic: Orange Mike
- Does Wikipedia Pay? is an ongoing Signpost series seeking to illuminate paid editing, paid advocacy, for-profit Wikipedia consultants, editing public relations professionals, conflict of interest guidelines in practice, and the Wikipedians who work on these issues... by speaking openly with the people involved.
- The first three interviews in this series (see navigation box on the lower right) focused on individuals who actively promote or attempt to accommodate paid editing. That is obviously not the entire story, else this topic would not be one of the most contentious on Wikipedia. To balance out the full spectrum of discourse, this 4th and then the 5th and final interview will be with some of the more strident critics or opponents of the current paid editing set-up.
- Many editors patrol conflict-of-interest territory. One of the most active and the most vocal is long-time Wikipedian Orange Mike. Orange Mike signed on to the Paid Advocacy Watch and has been a frequent contributor to the COI noticeboard. Orange Mike's view of the subject is "skeptical, if not downright cynical", a position reflected in his careful monitoring of articles written by paid editors.
- The Signpost spoke with Orange Mike to better understand the threat he thinks paid editing poses and what he thinks needs to change to keep Wikipedia thriving.
How paid editors squeeze you dry
31 January 2024
"Wikipedia and the assault on history"
4 December 2023
The "largest con in corporate history"?
20 February 2023
Truth or consequences? A tough month for truth
31 August 2022
The oligarchs' socks
27 March 2022
Fuzzy-headed government editing
30 January 2022
Denial: climate change, mass killings and pornography
29 November 2021
Paid promotional paragraphs in German parliamentary pages
26 September 2021
Enough time left to vote! IP ban
29 August 2021
Paid editing by a former head of state's business enterprise
25 April 2021
A "billionaire battle" on Wikipedia: Sex, lies, and video
28 February 2021
Concealment, data journalism, a non-pig farmer, and some Bluetick Hounds
28 December 2020
How billionaires rewrite Wikipedia
29 November 2020
Ban on IPs on ptwiki, paid editing for Tatarstan, IP masking
1 November 2020
Paid editing with political connections
27 September 2020
WIPO, Seigenthaler incident 15 years later
27 September 2020
Wikipedia for promotional purposes?
30 August 2020
Dog days gone bad
2 August 2020
Fox News, a flight of RfAs, and banning policy
2 August 2020
Some strange people edit Wikipedia for money
2 August 2020
Trying to find COI or paid editors? Just read the news
28 June 2020
Automatic detection of covert paid editing; Wiki Workshop 2020
31 May 2020
2019 Picture of the Year, 200 French paid editing accounts blocked, 10 years of Guild Copyediting
31 May 2020
English Wikipedia community's conclusions on talk pages
30 April 2019
Women's history month
31 March 2019
Court-ordered article redaction, paid editing, and rock stars
1 December 2018
Kalanick's nipples; Episode #138 of Drama on the Hill
23 June 2017
Massive paid editing network unearthed on the English Wikipedia
2 September 2015
Orangemoody sockpuppet case sparks widespread coverage
2 September 2015
Paid editing; traffic drop; Nicki Minaj
12 August 2015
Community voices on paid editing
12 August 2015
On paid editing and advocacy: when the Bright Line fails to shine, and what we can do about it
15 July 2015
Turkish Wikipedia censorship; "Can Wikipedia survive?"; PR editing
24 June 2015
A quick way of becoming an admin
17 June 2015
Meet a paid editor
4 March 2015
Is Wikipedia for sale?
4 February 2015
Shifting values in the paid content debate; cross-language bot detection
30 July 2014
With paid advocacy in its sights, the Wikimedia Foundation amends their terms of use
18 June 2014
Does Wikipedia Pay? The Moderator: William Beutler
11 June 2014
PR agencies commit to ethical interactions with Wikipedia
11 June 2014
Should Wikimedia modify its terms of use to require disclosure?
26 February 2014
Foundation takes aim at undisclosed paid editing; Greek Wikipedia editor faces down legal challenge
19 February 2014
Special report: Contesting contests
29 January 2014
WMF employee forced out over "paid advocacy editing"
8 January 2014
Foundation to Wiki-PR: cease and desist; Arbitration Committee elections starting
20 November 2013
More discussion of paid advocacy, upcoming arbitrator elections, research hackathon, and more
23 October 2013
Vice on Wiki-PR's paid advocacy; Featured list elections begin
16 October 2013
Ada Lovelace Day, paid advocacy on Wikipedia, sidebar update, and more
16 October 2013
Wiki-PR's extensive network of clandestine paid advocacy exposed
9 October 2013
Q&A on Public Relations and Wikipedia
25 September 2013
PR firm accused of editing Wikipedia for government clients; can Wikipedia predict the stock market?
13 May 2013
Court ruling complicates the paid-editing debate
12 November 2012
Does Wikipedia Pay? The Founder: Jimmy Wales
1 October 2012
Does Wikipedia pay? The skeptic: Orange Mike
23 July 2012
Does Wikipedia Pay? The Communicator: Phil Gomes
7 May 2012
Does Wikipedia Pay? The Consultant: Pete Forsyth
30 April 2012
Showdown as featured article writer openly solicits commercial opportunities
30 April 2012
Does Wikipedia Pay? The Facilitator: Silver seren
16 April 2012
Wikimedia announcements, Wikipedia advertising, and more!
26 April 2010
License update, Google Translate, GLAM conference, Paid editing
15 June 2009
Report of diploma mill offering pay for edits
12 March 2007
AstroTurf PR firm discovered astroturfing
5 February 2007
Account used to create paid corporate entries shut down
9 October 2006
Editing for hire leads to intervention
14 August 2006
Proposal to pay editors for contributions
24 April 2006
German Wikipedia introduces incentive scheme
18 July 2005
What got you started on Wikipedia? What has made you stay around so long?
It was in 2004, when comments elsewhere led me to discover that the coverage of science fiction fandom and fanzines was inadequate and incorrect. From there, by the old "browsing randomly through the encylopedia" syndrome, I discovered other areas where I could help improve this global project, and provide further information to the world: how cool is that!
When did paid advocacy come onto your radar as a problem?
From the beginning, it was obvious that some people were just trying to use Wikipedia to sell something.
How do you feel about the "bright line", the policy proposal supported by Jimmy Wales that paid editors never make direct changes to articles?
| “ | From the beginning, it was obvious that some people were just trying to use Wikipedia to sell something. | ” |
It seems like the necessary minimum, a good place to start; with the obvious caveat that reversion of vandalism (and I mean real vandalism, not "we don't want that story publicized") is not a problem.
Do you think there's a risk from setting a more strict policy that it drives paid editing further underground?
Certainly there's a risk, as there is to more active enforcement of any kind of rules. But we have to take a principled stand on the issue, to send a clear and unambiguous message; and as it is, it's not like there aren't covert paid editors with less ethics than the CREWE folks, out there messing with our articles every day.
PR professionals from CREWE are complaining about the response times on talk pages. Do you think Wikipedia needs to do something to better accommodate them?
No. Wikipedia does not exist as a convenience for them and their bosses. Why should they be privileged above anybody else? Most of the whiners don't bother to learn how we work, and seem unable or unwilling to do so. How complicated is it to post a {{helpme}} tag?
Do you think PR people can be good Wikipedia editors? How often? Can their talk page contribution improve articles? How likely are they to make Wikipedia better?
Many of them are intelligent human beings, and could contribute to this project in other fields, if they wanted to: but not in the area where they are acting as hirelings. Their remarks in talk pages, when genuinely intended to improve the article from an NPOV and accompanied by proper disclosure of COI, can be valuable, and should always be welcomed. A more accurate Wikipedia is a better Wikipedia: never forget that. On the other hand: there is something about that trade that seems to kill the part of a human being's mind that says, "Wait a minute: that's not really true or accurate!", or at least numbs it. Of course, in modern Western society, where people are raised on a non-stop diet of advertising, that part of human judgement seems to have pretty much atrophied in general: look at what passes for political discourse!
How do you think the community's views on paid editing have evolved since 2006, when the media first picked up on it?
I'm not sure how much they have, really. I think a few of the older editors (I won't name names) have been burned by assuming good faith on the part of editors who turned out to be cynically manipulating our trust and openness. We've certainly burned up a lot of pixels talking about it, though.
| “ | I think a few of the older editors have been burned by assuming good faith on the part of editors who turned out to be cynically manipulating our trust and openness. | ” |
What motivated you to join WikiProject Paid Advocacy Watch?
To provide another set of eyes, as we say, in an area where we are always going to be vulnerable.
The article I contributed to about CREWE is at the top of Paid Advocacy Watch's list to be checked for paid advocacy. Does this mean you have concerns about the article?
Well, duh! There is no industry more obsessed about its own image than the PR industry: look at the spammy articles about PR agencies, the way they hand out little statuettes and plaques to each other, the way they obsess with rankings and billings, etc. It would be beyond belief that the more ethically-challenged members of that trade would not be tempted, at least, to shade the nuances, to "give the truth scope".
What is Paid Advocacy Watch working on now?
I don't watch it that sedulously, so I can't say off the top of my head.
What would you say about the relationship between Wikiproject Cooperation and Paid Advocacy Watch? How are they different? Can they work together?
WikiProject Cooperation is much more trusting, more naïve in its approach to paid editing and paid editors; whereas Paid Advocacy Watch is more skeptical, if not downright cynical.
Do you think it should be policy that paid COI editors declare their conflict of interest?
Hell, yeah!
Do you think Wikipedia is accountable for being accurate? What is your response to the survey publicized as stating that 60 percent of PR professionals claim there are errors on their clients' Wikipedia page (note that many in the community disagreed with the phrasing of the conclusion, including this Signpost Investigative Report). Does this justify editing privileges?
1) Of course we are accountable for accuracy, in all four million articles. 2) The survey, biased though it was, didn't say that, and I'm tired of the Big Lie tactics which are responsible for deliberately spreading the disinformation that it did. Always read the source documents, not the spindoctors' reports about them.
With the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard, Wikiproject Cooperation's Paid editor help board, and Template:edit request, do you think there's a need for another or a single centralized place for paid editors to seek assistance and feedback?
I think we are already bending over backwards to accommodate them.
Do you think editors motivated by professional or monetary gains taint Wikipedia's nobility and independence?
No more than ideological cranks and single-issue fanatics; but that is quite a lot. The thing about mercenary editors is that they are paid (very well, in some cases) to do this full-time, and to persist in trying to sneak across the line and plant their distortions and spam; whereas those watching the borders for raids are more like me, a clerical worker working on his lunch break and weekends, who couldn't even afford to go to Wikimania when it was held in his own country!
| “ | The thing about mercenary editors is that they are paid (very well, in some cases) to do this full-time, and to persist in trying to sneak across the line and plant their distortions and spam. | ” |
If you personally could make money from working on Wikipedia in some capacity, either as a paid editor, a freelance writer, or a consultant, would you ever consider it?
Only if I abandoned the pleasure and duty of being a legitimate Wikipedian; which means you'd have to pay me a damned good salary with a solid contract in order for me to make that heartbreaking choice. I have nothing against being a paid writer: I am already a freelance writer, have been for over a quarter of a century; and if I were paid professional rates for what I do here, I could retire from my day job. Instead, I do it for the joy of adding to the sum of readily available human knowledge.
Was there anything you wanted to add about your personal COI efforts, such as at COI/N? Maybe a story about an article you cleaned up...?
I really like helping the noobs who honestly don't understand why what they are doing is wrong, but whose topic is genuinely notable and does need an article. Most of these, of course, are non-profits rather than corporations. On the other hand, sometimes I'm really distressed when I have to be the big ol' meanie and tell somebody that their topic just isn't for Wikipedia. The latter, unfortunately, includes the Irish dance troupe my wife and daughter have both danced with: I had to reject an article about it, because it failed to establish notability and lacked reliable sources! I'd love to see a new one written, but I'm not about to touch that myself.
Do you think paid editing could ever be completely stopped? Is that your ideal outcome?
It certainly can't, without changing our model beyond recognizability or utility. It would be my ideal, I guess, that only those genuinely seeking to make this project more accurate were to edit; but we can't let the perfect become the enemy of the good.
| “ | It would be my ideal that only those genuinely seeking to make this project more accurate were to edit; but we can't let the perfect become the enemy of the good. | ” |
What's your favorite piece of advice about editing Wikipedia?
Advice: "If you don't want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here."
Quote: My own line about doing New Page Patrol and COI watch, which I describe as: "drinking from the Magic Firehose of Sewage!"
Last, do you think paid COI editing is a natural part of the encyclopedia's evolution or a grave threat to its future?
Both.
Discuss this story
- Orange Mike has the experience and wisdom to know that paid editing has the potential to be a significant issue to Wikipedia. As Wikipedia matures and becomes more influential, monied-interests will have a greater and greater temptation to adjust articles to their side of the story. This is generally not a problem when there are a lot of unpaid volunteers to keep an eye on things. But as editor loss becomes greater, the ability to keep an eye on these issues diminshes. I recently ran across CitiCorp executive William R. Rhodes and noticed that the article had been heavily edited by CitiCorp IPs. Nobody had noticed this issue for a number of years. So I'm concered that if we don't recruit more unpaid volunteer editors to help, we won't be able to fix the existing problems or keep up with new ones. So I would encourage everybody with similar concerns to welcome our new users and try to make Wikipedia a friendly environment because paid editors will be here regardless of how unfriendly things are. Kind regards 64.40.57.60 (talk) 11:45, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I looked up the survey result and Mike is correct in accusing Ocaasi of misstating the results. I don't know if Ocaasi would like to make a note about the actual survey result. It certainly would be a fair use quotation since it being commented on.--BirgitteSB 12:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]