Wikipedia:Wiki Guides/OfficeHours201104141800

[2011-04-14 14:02:49] <Philippe> Hey Jamesofur :)
[2011-04-14 14:02:51] =-= Jamesofur has changed the topic to ``Wikimedia's Strategic Planning | http://strategy.wikimedia.org | Wiki Guide Discussion hours - Channel being logged
[2011-04-14 14:03:16] <Philippe> We have anyone here?
[2011-04-14 14:03:16] <Jamesofur> howdy Philippe  :)
[2011-04-14 14:03:41] <Jamesofur> we have a couple hanging around. acather96 and ragesoss just joined so I know they're at least a bit active though they didn't wave back to me!
[2011-04-14 14:03:53] * ragesoss waves
[2011-04-14 14:03:55] <Jamesofur> Peter-C is a guide as well
[2011-04-14 14:03:58] <Philippe> hey ragesoss :)
[2011-04-14 14:04:00] <Jamesofur> there we go, I feel more loved
[2011-04-14 14:04:29] <ragesoss> if you're ever feeling unloved, James, just let me know and I'll shower some affection on you.
[2011-04-14 14:04:29] === Tanvir <~tanvir@wikimedia/wikitanvir> ``Tanvir Rahman
[2011-04-14 14:04:29] === Tanvir: member of #wikimedia-strategy and #wikimedia-office
[2011-04-14 14:04:29] === Tanvir: attached to sendak.freenode.net ``Vilnius, Lithuania, EU
[2011-04-14 14:04:29] === Tanvir: away with message ``I am out.
[2011-04-14 14:04:29] === Tanvir is using a secure connection
[2011-04-14 14:04:29] === Tanvir: idle for 15 minutes, 51 seconds (on since Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:02:11 AM)
[2011-04-14 14:04:30] === Tanvir is logged in as Tanvir
[2011-04-14 14:04:30] --- End of WHOIS information for Tanvir.
[2011-04-14 14:04:52] <Philippe> ewwww, all this touchy feely love stuff makes me feel icky.
[2011-04-14 14:04:57] <ragesoss> I even have a gadget for that!
[2011-04-14 14:05:00] <ragesoss> Wikilove FTW!
[2011-04-14 14:05:11] <Jamesofur> Kittens!
[2011-04-14 14:05:24] <ragesoss> I'm looking forward to seeing beer as an option.
[2011-04-14 14:05:34] <Rock_drum|Busy> It is on Ancient Apparition's version
[2011-04-14 14:05:36] <Rock_drum|Busy> I think
[2011-04-14 14:05:55] <Rock_drum|Busy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ancient_Apparition/wikilove2.js
[2011-04-14 14:06:16] <Philippe> Well, shall we do a brief run through of Guide-y stuff then?
[2011-04-14 14:06:22] <Philippe> I'm conscious of peoples' time.
[2011-04-14 14:06:26] <Jamesofur> I think so yeah
[2011-04-14 14:06:46] <Philippe> Is there anyone here to play guide 'cept Ragesoss? Cuz it's not like he's a person�, he's staff. :P
[2011-04-14 14:07:22] <Philippe> OK, Sage, i'll give you the quick bullet points then.  :)
[2011-04-14 14:07:27] <ragesoss> hehe
[2011-04-14 14:07:34] === Rock_drum|Busy <~Rock_drum@wikimedia/Rock-drum> ``Oi...I'm not telling you
[2011-04-14 14:07:34] === Rock_drum|Busy: member of #wikimedia-strategy
[2011-04-14 14:07:34] === Rock_drum|Busy: attached to anthony.freenode.net ``Irvine, CA, USA
[2011-04-14 14:07:34] === Rock_drum|Busy is logged in as Rock_drum
[2011-04-14 14:07:34] --- End of WHOIS information for Rock_drum|Busy.
[2011-04-14 14:07:42] <Philippe> Were you on the metrics call last week?
[2011-04-14 14:07:46] <ragesoss> yes.
[2011-04-14 14:07:55] <Philippe> Then you heard my spiel.... we know the program works.
[2011-04-14 14:08:05] <Philippe> We've got demonstrable results now.
[2011-04-14 14:08:11] <ragesoss> I saw the graphs, but I still don't understand quite what they are showing.
[2011-04-14 14:08:11] <gopher65> Whoa! People are talking in here!
[2011-04-14 14:08:14] <Philippe> But we also kno it's hard and it's not scalable.
[2011-04-14 14:08:19] === gopher65 <~gopher65@wikinews/Gopher65> ``...
[2011-04-14 14:08:19] === gopher65: member of #wikimedia-strategy
[2011-04-14 14:08:19] === gopher65: attached to hitchcock.freenode.net ``Sofia, BG, EU
[2011-04-14 14:08:19] === gopher65 is logged in as gopher65
[2011-04-14 14:08:19] --- End of WHOIS information for gopher65.
[2011-04-14 14:08:37] <Philippe> hey gopher65 :) Talking about the WikiGuides program :)
[2011-04-14 14:09:11] <Philippe> Sage, basically, what we were showing is two fold.
[2011-04-14 14:09:33] <Philippe> First, we know that we're not impacting, substantially, the gross number of contributions by the mentored users.
[2011-04-14 14:09:48] <Philippe> But more importantly, we ARE impacting where� the contributions are.
[2011-04-14 14:10:16] <Philippe> We're seeing a statistically significant increase in contributions to the mainspace, and decrease to the User and Usertalk spaces.
[2011-04-14 14:10:21] <ragesoss> what is the X-axis on this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikiguides_Mainspace_edits.png
[2011-04-14 14:10:41] <Jamesofur> time
[2011-04-14 14:10:44] <Philippe> Yeah, okay, that's the suckiest graph ever, and I should have pulled it before it got blasted all over the world
[2011-04-14 14:10:56] <ragesoss> how much time?
[2011-04-14 14:11:15] <Philippe> James, how many days are in that graph?
[2011-04-14 14:11:23] <Jamesofur> That's the start of the project (first cohort of mentees) until the graph was made (April 4th or so)
[2011-04-14 14:11:29] <Jamesofur> so about 2 months
[2011-04-14 14:11:51] <Philippe> Sage, this is a better graph: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikiguides_Mainspace_difference.png
[2011-04-14 14:12:11] <Philippe> This is the net difference between mainspace edits by the mentored users and the controls.
[2011-04-14 14:12:19] <Jamesofur> and ignore the giant spike at the end
[2011-04-14 14:12:20] <ragesoss> so again, time is the X-axis?
[2011-04-14 14:12:25] <Philippe> Again, time, yes.
[2011-04-14 14:12:25] <Jamesofur> aye, same time frame
[2011-04-14 14:12:32] <ragesoss> okay, and what is that spike?
[2011-04-14 14:12:40] <Philippe> That's the assignment of new users.
[2011-04-14 14:12:42] <Jamesofur> non normalized data
[2011-04-14 14:12:46] <Philippe> It's not a normalized graph yet
[2011-04-14 14:13:13] <Philippe> But anyway... if you imagine a median line on there....
[2011-04-14 14:13:20] <Philippe> the median line is in the positive area of the graph
[2011-04-14 14:13:24] <ragesoss> okay... when I look at that graph, it basically just looks like noise. I can't tell if the average is positive or negative.
[2011-04-14 14:13:56] <Philippe> It's positive. It's about +22
[2011-04-14 14:14:08] <Philippe> So we know that they're editing the mainspace more.
[2011-04-14 14:14:16] <Philippe> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Userusertalk_difference.png
[2011-04-14 14:14:26] <ragesoss> +22%
[2011-04-14 14:14:27] <Philippe> That's the same graph, isolated to the User and User talk spaces
[2011-04-14 14:14:41] <Philippe> no, +22edits
[2011-04-14 14:14:44] <Tanvir> Hi Philippe, can PM you?
[2011-04-14 14:14:44] <Philippe> not percents
[2011-04-14 14:14:50] <Philippe> Tanvir, sure.
[2011-04-14 14:14:52] <ragesoss> 22 edits per person?
[2011-04-14 14:15:04] <ragesoss> or 22 net edits, for the whole cohort?
[2011-04-14 14:15:08] <Jamesofur> met
[2011-04-14 14:15:10] <Jamesofur> net
[2011-04-14 14:15:12] <Philippe> net
[2011-04-14 14:15:23] <gopher65> I don't have any data to back me up, but in general I get the sense that mentored users are more productive over the medium term. In my experience their long term productivity often declines sharply after a few months (but not always, of course).
[2011-04-14 14:15:31] <Philippe> But take a sec to look at the second graph.
[2011-04-14 14:15:41] <Philippe> gopher65: that may very well be, and that's one of the things we need to measure.
[2011-04-14 14:15:45] <gopher65> I suspect that anyone who is mentored will be more likely to become a long term positive user than non-mentored people though
[2011-04-14 14:16:11] <Philippe> gopher65: I certainly hope so. That's what I'm counting on, and it would suck to be wrong :)
[2011-04-14 14:16:15] <gopher65> :)
[2011-04-14 14:16:23] <ragesoss> okay. have you checked for statistical significance? I mean, I'm confident that the wiki guides concept *can* make a difference. but I'm not convinced from the data.
[2011-04-14 14:16:33] <Philippe> Yeah, it's significant
[2011-04-14 14:16:40] <Philippe> according to a statistician that I keep around.
[2011-04-14 14:16:44] <ragesoss> hehe
[2011-04-14 14:16:46] <Jamesofur> In his desk
[2011-04-14 14:17:07] <ragesoss> and this is how many users in each group?
[2011-04-14 14:17:34] <Jamesofur> the number in each cohort grew. The first group was very small (only 10 per user)
[2011-04-14 14:17:43] <Philippe> James, no...
[2011-04-14 14:17:44] <Philippe> totals
[2011-04-14 14:17:48] <Philippe> not per guide
[2011-04-14 14:17:49] <Jamesofur> ahhh sorry
[2011-04-14 14:17:55] <Jamesofur> I was thinking per cohort
[2011-04-14 14:17:56] <ragesoss> for the data we're talking about.
[2011-04-14 14:18:13] <ragesoss> how many users are in the control group, and how many in the turtles group?
[2011-04-14 14:18:42] <Jamesofur> ends up with about 2500 but that number increased to their over time as we added more in
[2011-04-14 14:18:48] <Jamesofur> *there
[2011-04-14 14:19:03] <Philippe> But that's not a totally solid number yet, Sage, because some of those guided users actually weren't guided.
[2011-04-14 14:19:08] <Philippe> as guides dropped off
[2011-04-14 14:19:19] <Philippe> ack... one sec, so sorry, must step away for a sec.
[2011-04-14 14:19:19] <ragesoss> that data includes 2500 users?
[2011-04-14 14:19:23] <Jamesofur> aye, especially in the 2nd two phases and that isn't accounted for yet
[2011-04-14 14:19:38] <ragesoss> cuz the data looks *very* spiky for including that many data points.
[2011-04-14 14:22:35] <Philippe> my apologies
[2011-04-14 14:22:38] <Jamesofur> if you ignore the last giant spike (which is the unnormalized 3rd cohort and only about 3 day) it's 1250 each
[2011-04-14 14:22:41] * Jamesofur just checked
[2011-04-14 14:22:58] <Philippe> OK, so... can I make a suggestion? Let's move on and talk about where we're headed.
[2011-04-14 14:23:04] <Philippe> and then we can come back to data land.
[2011-04-14 14:23:07] <ragesoss> okay.
[2011-04-14 14:23:19] <Jamesofur> aye I think that's good
[2011-04-14 14:23:30] <HaeB> hi, sorry to interrupt with a quick question (i'm basically just lurking here ;) - are you guys aware of http://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Mentoring_programs:_Structure_of_the_German_MP_and_international_comparison ?
[2011-04-14 14:23:46] <Philippe> So, one thing that became very obvious was actually from this: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikiguides_Cohort_1_by_study_day.png
[2011-04-14 14:24:06] <Philippe> Hi HaeB, yes... :)
[2011-04-14 14:24:29] <Philippe> I'm doing a lot of digging into the various mentoring programs on different wikis.
[2011-04-14 14:25:06] <Philippe> So if we look at that last graph, we can see that by day 3 of their wiki-existance, we've cut the pool of people dramatically. Most people made their initial burst of activity and went away
[2011-04-14 14:25:23] <HaeB> ah good ;) at wikimania bücherwürmlein said intended to write up more on it, i wonder what became of that
[2011-04-14 14:25:30] * HaeB lurks again
[2011-04-14 14:26:04] <Philippe> So our goal became to figure out how to quickly intercede
[2011-04-14 14:26:12] <acather96> hi
[2011-04-14 14:26:17] <ragesoss> yep, that makes a lot of sense Philippe
[2011-04-14 14:26:23] <Philippe> and hopefully step in to get people immediate or nearly immediate help.
[2011-04-14 14:26:26] <Philippe> (hi acather96!)
[2011-04-14 14:26:51] <Jamesofur> hey acather96 !
[2011-04-14 14:27:00] <Philippe> Rather than spending a lot of time on sending out emails to people who have a lower likelihood of coming to the wiki again, we're going to focus on the ones who ARE editing.
[2011-04-14 14:27:10] <Philippe> and try to KEEP them here by making the experience better.
[2011-04-14 14:27:35] <acather96> How are we going to identify those candidates?
[2011-04-14 14:27:51] <Philippe> It's important to say this frequently and loudly: Our current folks doing new page patrol and CSD work are rockstars, and we love them. The ones doing good work have nothing to fear here.... we're here to support them and give them resources.
[2011-04-14 14:28:12] <ragesoss> "the ones doing good work have nothing to fear"
[2011-04-14 14:28:15] <ragesoss> ha!
[2011-04-14 14:28:17] <Philippe> acather96, I'm glad you asked. We're going to become more reactive. We're going to watch for the ones who are editing, and step in immediately.  :)
[2011-04-14 14:28:38] <Philippe> Sage, you'd be amazed how concerned good people are that we're judging them.
[2011-04-14 14:28:40] <Philippe> We're not.
[2011-04-14 14:28:55] <ragesoss> yep.
[2011-04-14 14:28:58] <Philippe> We're here to help them and support them. And as we do this, we end up grooming the next crop of people.
[2011-04-14 14:29:04] <ragesoss> you might want to avoid that kind of phrasing though.
[2011-04-14 14:29:14] <Philippe> Yep, suboptimal. :)
[2011-04-14 14:29:37] <Philippe> Anyway... to do this, and to answer acather's question... James do you have the link to the new tracker?
[2011-04-14 14:29:48] <Philippe> in a bit.ly format?
[2011-04-14 14:30:01] <Jamesofur> heh in a bit.ly! now you're asking for too much!
[2011-04-14 14:30:12] <Philippe> Well, i don't want you pasting that nasty url in here
[2011-04-14 14:30:14] <Jamesofur> http://bit(.)ly/eDBbcT
[2011-04-14 14:30:33] <Philippe> So, this is the (still yechy, but getting better) new tracker format.
[2011-04-14 14:30:53] <Philippe> You'll see that it now has the user name identified on the left. It's also sortable by clicking on the column header.
[2011-04-14 14:31:10] <Philippe> (we're getting the columns locked to a consistent size, etc... it's iterative)
[2011-04-14 14:31:16] <Rock_drum|Busy> What are those stats showing?
[2011-04-14 14:31:21] <Jamesofur> (that's 20 random people from April 12th UTC + Philippe and I by the way)
[2011-04-14 14:31:35] <Philippe> Rock_drum|Busy: do you mean on the tracker?
[2011-04-14 14:31:39] <Rock_drum|Busy> yes
[2011-04-14 14:32:06] <Philippe> So what that's showing is the edits by 20 random users' who joined us on April 12th, within the last 24 hours.
[2011-04-14 14:32:15] <Rock_drum|Busy> ahh
[2011-04-14 14:32:24] <Philippe> New users on 4/12, and what edits they've made in the last 48 (i'm sorry, not 24 but 48) hours
[2011-04-14 14:32:26] <Rock_drum|Busy> and were they all guided by wikiguides?
[2011-04-14 14:32:31] <Philippe> Nope, not yet.
[2011-04-14 14:32:45] <Rock_drum|Busy> ok
[2011-04-14 14:32:48] <Rock_drum|Busy> were any of them?
[2011-04-14 14:32:52] <Philippe> But that takes us to our next question :)
[2011-04-14 14:32:57] <Philippe> Rock_drum|Busy: No, these are brand new
[2011-04-14 14:32:58] <Jamesofur> not these ones know, but we want to change that ;)
[2011-04-14 14:33:00] <Rock_drum|Busy> Ok
[2011-04-14 14:33:02] <Philippe> they've just joined us, they've gotten no love.
[2011-04-14 14:33:12] <acather96> Isitme2 looks like he's having some formatting/image insertion problems
[2011-04-14 14:33:15] * Rock_drum|Busy primes ragesoss and his various wikilove gadgets :P
[2011-04-14 14:33:30] <Philippe> acather96: yes!
[2011-04-14 14:33:32] <Philippe> Exactly!
[2011-04-14 14:33:45] <Philippe> So the proper thing for a WikiGuide with this tracker would be to jump in and offer to help.
[2011-04-14 14:34:15] <Philippe> So I clicked on him to go look and you're exactly right. But the other thing I noticed... the guy never got welcomed.
[2011-04-14 14:34:20] <Philippe> So the Guide would do that at the same time.
[2011-04-14 14:34:21] <acather96> Already done, I've added a WikiGuide template to his talk page, will fix article and e-mail soonish
[2011-04-14 14:34:40] <Philippe> acather96: if I had a goldstar to give you, I'd do it, so I'll slap a barnstar on you instead.
[2011-04-14 14:34:42] <Jamesofur> I knew I liked you for a reason!
[2011-04-14 14:34:48] <Philippe> Thanks for exactly demonstrating how we'd like it to work.
[2011-04-14 14:35:47] <acather96> lol thanks :)
[2011-04-14 14:35:54] <Philippe> So we're going to ask that Guides self organize into teams. Why teams? Because that way you don't have to check the tracker every single minute of every day.
[2011-04-14 14:36:05] <Philippe> Each team has their own tracker.
[2011-04-14 14:36:29] <Philippe> And we ask each team to commit to checking on the folks on their tracker every day. Not each individual guide... each TEAM.
[2011-04-14 14:36:44] <Philippe> And one person from the team, the clerk, will just make a note of who they helped that day.
[2011-04-14 14:36:56] <Philippe> (if every guide wanted to note their own, that works too)
[2011-04-14 14:37:19] <Philippe> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Guides/Real_time_tracking
[2011-04-14 14:37:39] <Jamesofur> and we'll check in and add more (new) users to the tracker as it empties out (yay for editable bit.ly links)
[2011-04-14 14:37:46] -->| MikeLynch1 (75c0c653@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.192.198.83) has joined #wikimedia-strategy
[2011-04-14 14:37:50] <Jamesofur> hey MikeLynch1 !
[2011-04-14 14:38:04] <acather96> Souns good to me
[2011-04-14 14:38:06] <Philippe> Now, we're going to see that of our potentially huge number of people, most will never edit again. That's okay. Not everyone wants to join us long term. But for those who do, we're here to make the experience as smooth as possible.
[2011-04-14 14:38:08] <MikeLynch1> Hey
[2011-04-14 14:39:00] <Philippe> I know you'll ALL be depressed to not be sitting at Special:Emailuser for hours on end, emailing 50 new people that you rarely hear from again...
[2011-04-14 14:39:01] <Philippe> <grin>
[2011-04-14 14:39:20] <Rock_drum|Busy> Can someone create a tool to email 50 people at once?
[2011-04-14 14:39:29] <Philippe> Rock_drum|Busy: We're workin on it. :)
[2011-04-14 14:39:33] <Rock_drum|Busy> :)
[2011-04-14 14:39:36] <Jamesofur> ^ What Philippe said
[2011-04-14 14:39:57] <Philippe> The tech exists, it's a matter of linking databases and doing it in a privacy-aware environment.
[2011-04-14 14:40:15] <Philippe> But for now, don't worry about emailing and greeting people.
[2011-04-14 14:40:27] <Philippe> Just check the tracker and worry about helping the folks who are actually editing.
[2011-04-14 14:40:52] <Philippe> Over the last few days, we've been doing some studies in-house... and we learned something fascinating. Anyone care to guess what percentage of edits by new users are vandalism?
[2011-04-14 14:41:11] <Rock_drum|Busy> >60%
[2011-04-14 14:41:16] <Jamesofur> :)
[2011-04-14 14:41:19] <Philippe> Anyone else?
[2011-04-14 14:41:19] <Rock_drum|Busy> I mean <6-%
[2011-04-14 14:41:21] <Rock_drum|Busy> no
[2011-04-14 14:41:23] <Rock_drum|Busy> not that either
[2011-04-14 14:41:24] <Rock_drum|Busy> gah
[2011-04-14 14:41:27] <Rock_drum|Busy> bad typing
[2011-04-14 14:41:31] <Rock_drum|Busy> <60%
[2011-04-14 14:41:34] <Philippe> ragesoss: ? any idea?
[2011-04-14 14:41:53] <ragesoss> 25
[2011-04-14 14:41:56] * Jamesofur says "no looking at your email!"
[2011-04-14 14:42:10] <ragesoss> well, that's why I was keeping silent until asked.
[2011-04-14 14:42:14] <Rock_drum|Busy> :P
[2011-04-14 14:42:15] <Philippe> Heh
[2011-04-14 14:42:15] <Philippe> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Edit_pie_chart.jpg
[2011-04-14 14:42:18] <Philippe> 23.2%
[2011-04-14 14:42:22] <Rock_drum|Busy> my guess was shocking-ly out
[2011-04-14 14:43:39] <Jamesofur> I don't think you'd be alone Rock_drum|Busy
[2011-04-14 14:43:40] <acather96> On a completley (well not totally) unrelated note, does anyone have any ideas for cats for 'Casino Dealer School (CDS)' (Isitme2's creation). An uncat template was added, however he removed an attempted to add categories, but they dont exist. I'm rubbish with categorization, quite frankly :(
[2011-04-14 14:44:33] <Jamesofur> is their a professional school cat?
[2011-04-14 14:44:47] <Rock_drum|Busy> I'd guess so
[2011-04-14 14:44:59] <Philippe> By the way, and here's a bit that's not in your email
[2011-04-14 14:45:09] <Philippe> Anyone wanna guess what the vandalism level was in April, 2004?
[2011-04-14 14:45:27] <acather96> low?
[2011-04-14 14:45:37] <Philippe> about 2.5%.
[2011-04-14 14:45:38] <Philippe> yep
[2011-04-14 14:45:47] <ragesoss> and what is it now?
[2011-04-14 14:45:50] <Rock_drum|Busy> But it had a lower audience now
[2011-04-14 14:45:53] <Rock_drum|Busy> 23.6%
[2011-04-14 14:45:57] <Jamesofur> a much lower audience yup
[2011-04-14 14:46:00] <Rock_drum|Busy> oh 23.2%
[2011-04-14 14:46:01] <ragesoss> no, that's % from newbies.
[2011-04-14 14:46:08] <Rock_drum|Busy> now>then
[2011-04-14 14:46:11] <ragesoss> not total vandalism level.
[2011-04-14 14:46:11] <Rock_drum|Busy> oh
[2011-04-14 14:46:16] <MikeLynch1> oh well, the number of editors were less then
[2011-04-14 14:46:25] <Jamesofur> aye, both of them are actually ragesoss
[2011-04-14 14:46:26] <Philippe> Nope. :) roughly the same.
[2011-04-14 14:46:36] <Rock_drum|Busy> Really?
[2011-04-14 14:46:36] <Jamesofur> April was another 155 random users from April 12th 2004
[2011-04-14 14:46:39] <Philippe> Roughly the same number of newbies per day.
[2011-04-14 14:46:44] <ragesoss> 2.5% of *newbie* edits were vandalism?
[2011-04-14 14:46:47] <Philippe> yep
[2011-04-14 14:46:56] <ragesoss> huh.
[2011-04-14 14:47:01] <ragesoss> a lot lower than I expected.
[2011-04-14 14:47:04] <Rock_drum|Busy> What's changed other than there's now a lot of people who want to scribble on the toilet wall.
[2011-04-14 14:47:11] <MikeLynch1> any explanation for this drastic shift?
[2011-04-14 14:47:14] <Philippe> Rock_drum|Busy: I think that's true.
[2011-04-14 14:47:21] <Philippe> But also, I think it's Streisand Effect.
[2011-04-14 14:47:26] <Rock_drum|Busy> I suppose so
[2011-04-14 14:47:27] <Philippe> We give them soooo much attention
[2011-04-14 14:47:30] <Philippe> That it makes it fun.
[2011-04-14 14:47:43] <Jamesofur> another interesting side of ti was that we still have 75% of the old 'good edit'
[2011-04-14 14:47:46] <ragesoss> Philippe: is that true?
[2011-04-14 14:47:46] <Rock_drum|Busy> if we tell them that there's 100000000 FAs, they'll write an FA :-/
[2011-04-14 14:47:58] <ragesoss> does the average vandal get more attention that they did then?
[2011-04-14 14:48:01] <Philippe> Yep.
[2011-04-14 14:48:08] <Rock_drum|Busy> 'cos it's in the news and stuffs
[2011-04-14 14:48:10] <Philippe> They get templates and people focus on them....
[2011-04-14 14:48:15] <Philippe> and swarms descend
[2011-04-14 14:48:21] <Rock_drum|Busy> And they like attention these wall-scribblers
[2011-04-14 14:48:22] <Philippe> and they turn our attention away from what we should be doing.
[2011-04-14 14:48:23] <ragesoss> I thought that happened back then too.
[2011-04-14 14:48:29] <ragesoss> not that I was around in 2004.
[2011-04-14 14:48:33] <Philippe> Nope, not according to the study that we did yesterday
[2011-04-14 14:48:38] <Rock_drum|Busy> But the project was essentially smaller, no?
[2011-04-14 14:48:48] <Philippe> I followed a couple of vandals through their time starting in 2004 yesterday
[2011-04-14 14:48:49] <Jamesofur> Rock_drum|Busy: Much smaller the giant jump was around 06
[2011-04-14 14:48:51] <Philippe> and they mostly went away from boredom.
[2011-04-14 14:49:04] =-= Rock_drum|Busy is now known as Rock_drum
[2011-04-14 14:49:05] <Philippe> Because people really did RBI then
[2011-04-14 14:49:05] <ragesoss> and what happened to their edits?
[2011-04-14 14:49:12] * Peter-C walks in fasionably late
[2011-04-14 14:49:12] <ragesoss> what was the survival time?
[2011-04-14 14:49:13] <Philippe> they just got reverted and ignored.
[2011-04-14 14:49:21] <Philippe> I'm still pulling that data, ragesoss :)
[2011-04-14 14:49:28] <ragesoss> revert / block / ignore?
[2011-04-14 14:49:30] <Philippe> yep
[2011-04-14 14:49:37] <Philippe> I'll tell you something else that's interesting....
[2011-04-14 14:49:43] <Rock_drum> now they RBT
[2011-04-14 14:49:53] <Philippe> some of our most solid citizens now started then... and would have been warned and potentially blocked now.
[2011-04-14 14:49:55] <ragesoss> RTB Rock_drum
[2011-04-14 14:49:57] <Philippe> if they'd made the same edits.
[2011-04-14 14:50:01] <Rock_drum> oh, yeah
[2011-04-14 14:50:03] <acather96> What I nver understand is why we always seem to be so desperate to 'issue' four warnings before blocking, even if the user is clearly out and out vandalising. For clear vandalism, I'd support one warning followed by a short block. They get less attention, we get less disruption.
[2011-04-14 14:50:05] <Jamesofur> Rock_drum: Now the RWWWWBT (with lots of Warnings angs)
[2011-04-14 14:50:24] <Rock_drum> or RWWWWWW(mention on CNN)B
[2011-04-14 14:50:41] <Philippe> I have one guy in mind.... he's a BLP subject... and his first edits were about 70% edits to his own Biography.
[2011-04-14 14:50:56] <Philippe> He got a couple "hey man, not cool" comments, but then people realized that he was generally improving it, and they helped him.
[2011-04-14 14:50:58] <Rock_drum> Was he being beutral
[2011-04-14 14:51:03] <Rock_drum> *neutral
[2011-04-14 14:51:05] <Rock_drum> ?
[2011-04-14 14:51:07] <Philippe> yep.
[2011-04-14 14:51:10] <ragesoss> are you talking about Jimbo?
[2011-04-14 14:51:12] <Philippe> He was correcting factual errors, mostly
[2011-04-14 14:51:13] <Rock_drum> That's fine then
[2011-04-14 14:51:14] <Philippe> nah, not him :P
[2011-04-14 14:51:19] <Jamesofur> no, though I'm sure he did it too
[2011-04-14 14:51:37] <Philippe> But when I compare him to a BLP subject NOW, that I'm aware of.... he had three nastygrams in 24 hours for doing essentially the same thing
[2011-04-14 14:51:39] <Jamesofur> Rock_drum: I agree that's fine but he would still get a LOT of nastiness now
[2011-04-14 14:51:48] <Rock_drum> Which is a pity
[2011-04-14 14:51:57] <Philippe> So our job is to help the people like that.
[2011-04-14 14:51:57] <Rock_drum> 'cos as long as they're following the 5 pillars
[2011-04-14 14:52:07] <Philippe> Who can become pillars of our society, if we just give them the help they need.
[2011-04-14 14:52:11] <Jamesofur> COI itself has never really been the problem. It's not being able to work within the project
[2011-04-14 14:52:39] <Philippe> So.... I want to take just a sec to wrap things up
[2011-04-14 14:52:44] <Philippe> What do we need to do now?
[2011-04-14 14:52:49] <Philippe> First... keep being awesome.
[2011-04-14 14:52:57] <Philippe> No problem, that one's sorted.  :)
[2011-04-14 14:53:12] <acather96> I doubt this could be implemented, but here goes: Would it be possible, when a user clicks the edit button for the first time (before saving) they are automatically sent to some kind of editing info/tutorial page (links to useful pages, 5 pillars, where to get help etc.)
[2011-04-14 14:53:19] <Philippe> Second: Sign up for a team. James, Zack, and I are all going to be on a team but we don't want to clerk it.  :)
[2011-04-14 14:53:50] <Philippe> acather96: we're working on that sort of thing, but at the account creation process. I'm not sure about the first edit time, but let me talk it through :)
[2011-04-14 14:53:56] <Philippe> I think it's a good hypothesis
[2011-04-14 14:54:12] <Philippe> You can sign up to be on a team: https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/ccc?key=0AvhjkTJIpW2zdERsNUI2Q0w2UTlxeDFteGF2SlM5Rmc&authkey=CKKswCY&hl=en#gid=0
[2011-04-14 14:54:32] <Philippe> James is going to add tracker links to that sheet TODAY
[2011-04-14 14:54:39] <Philippe> and we can start working on these folks immediately
[2011-04-14 14:54:57] <Jamesofur> yup!
[2011-04-14 14:55:07] <ragesoss> I'm going to be working on a tutorial system for the ambassador program.
[2011-04-14 14:55:15] <Philippe> So then, just show up. Do your thing. help people. Be awesome. Be good to each other.
[2011-04-14 14:55:17] <ragesoss> basically, a smart template that walks you through steps.
[2011-04-14 14:55:21] <Philippe> If you do that stuff, people will want to be around.
[2011-04-14 14:55:23] <acather96> Should we join any team, or is there a preferred order?
[2011-04-14 14:55:27] <Philippe> any team you want
[2011-04-14 14:55:31] <Philippe> Just remember, I have candy.
[2011-04-14 14:55:40] <Rock_drum> Where?
[2011-04-14 14:55:42] <acather96> Thanks
[2011-04-14 14:55:43] <Rock_drum> :)
[2011-04-14 14:55:43] <Jamesofur> That sounds sketchy
[2011-04-14 14:55:45] <ragesoss> so first, it's just a button that says "start the tutorial" and opens up a sandbox page to make your first edit.
[2011-04-14 14:56:06] <ragesoss> and if the sandbox exists, it knows to offer different instructions.
[2011-04-14 14:56:09] <Philippe> ragesoss, sounds really cool... can't wait to see it :)
[2011-04-14 14:56:12] <MikeLynch1> Sorry to interrupt, but I think I missed much of the conversation; so could you put up a log of this whole conversation(right from the start) somewhere?
[2011-04-14 14:56:27] <Jamesofur> MikeLynch1: Yup! I'm going to post it in a couple minutes
[2011-04-14 14:56:29] <acather96> its being logged (I think)
[2011-04-14 14:56:30] <Philippe> MikeLynch1: Yes. We'll put a link to it from the homepage of the Wikiguides project.
[2011-04-14 14:56:43] <MikeLynch1> Great :)
[2011-04-14 14:56:47] <Rock_drum> can you correct my shocking speeling and tyops? :P
[2011-04-14 14:56:52] <Philippe> We'll edit out the bit where Jamesofur was saying mean things about you.
[2011-04-14 14:56:55] <Philippe> I mean, if it existed.
[2011-04-14 14:56:58] <Philippe> Which, it doesn't.
[2011-04-14 14:57:03] <Philippe> But it's fun to watch James panic.
[2011-04-14 14:57:04] <MikeLynch1> :P
[2011-04-14 14:57:05] <Rock_drum> That was a slick cover up there
[2011-04-14 14:57:08] <Jamesofur> :P
[2011-04-14 14:57:24] <Philippe> Thanks, Rock_drum ... all those years in politics didn't go to waste.
[2011-04-14 14:57:39] <Philippe> We're very nearly at the 1 hour mark... does anyone have any questions?  :)
[2011-04-14 14:58:03] <acather96> None here
[2011-04-14 14:58:15] <Philippe> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Guides/Real_time_tracking
[2011-04-14 14:58:19] <Philippe> That page gives all the step by step
[2011-04-14 14:58:21] <Philippe> but it's really pretty basi
[2011-04-14 14:58:22] <MikeLynch1> Have a load of them, but will look at the log first :P
[2011-04-14 14:58:32] <Philippe> it's a condensed version of recent changes patrol, basically :)
[2011-04-14 14:58:56] <Jamesofur> Before people leave there is obviously our 2nd hour tonight (00:00 UTC) which you're welcome to come too though it will be talking about the same things. There is also an office hours the hour BEFORE that (23:00 UTC ) with Sue talking about new users and editor retention
[2011-04-14 14:59:20] <Jamesofur> and openness within the projects and foundation...
[2011-04-14 14:59:33] <Philippe> Hey James...
[2011-04-14 14:59:37] <acather96> FYI I'll be sleeping both of those times, so obviously wont be attending :(
[2011-04-14 14:59:38] <Philippe> the link you sent me for tonight....?
[2011-04-14 14:59:41] <Philippe> it's got the wrong time, I think.
[2011-04-14 14:59:48] <Philippe> It's got it at 5PM PST
[2011-04-14 14:59:57] <Jamesofur> 5PST is 00:00 UTC
[2011-04-14 15:00:00] <Philippe> DOH
[2011-04-14 15:00:02] <Philippe> time change
[2011-04-14 15:00:04] <Jamesofur> yup
[2011-04-14 15:00:06] <Philippe> you're right, sorry
[2011-04-14 15:00:10] <Philippe> i have SUE on the wrong time
[2011-04-14 15:00:20] |<-- Rock_drum has left freenode (Quit: http://www.glamwiki.org)
[2011-04-14 15:00:28] <MikeLynch1> I'd love to join in, but its already 00:30 here, and the next one will be at around 5 AM, so I've to catch some sleep. I'll have a look at the logs.
[2011-04-14 15:00:29] <Jamesofur> it's ok, I've 2nd guessed myself on that every time I've written it
[2011-04-14 15:00:41] <Philippe> See what I did there? I was testing James.... making sure he knew his stuff. That's good management. uhhuh. That's it.
[2011-04-14 15:00:44] <acather96> Bye :)
[2011-04-14 15:00:50] <Jamesofur> MikeLynch1: Totally understandable! I should have it up within 5 minutes :0
[2011-04-14 15:00:55] <Jamesofur> (the log
[2011-04-14 15:00:58] <Jamesofur> cya acather96 !
[2011-04-14 15:01:01] <Philippe> Thanks, everyone!