Wikipedia:Wiki Guides/1800Feb25DiscussionHours

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<Jalexander> morning folks :) Looks like a lot of people still sitting in here from yesterday's office hours but I see at least a couple people here from Wiki Guides :)
<Peter-C> Afternoon :)
<apergos> ah I never left it is true
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<Jalexander> you can always tell when there hasn't been office hours for a couple weeks because the channel slowly empties out
* Jalexander waves at Fyrefly
<Jalexander> and Peter-C :)
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<apergos> can I lurk about the wikiguides?
<Jalexander> of course!
<apergos> cool
<Jalexander> Not sure how many are going to end up coming, and probably more this evening then this morning/afternoon
<apergos> ok
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<Fyrefly> I only saw one time today in your e-mail
<Jalexander> oh?
<Jalexander> that's not good!
* Jalexander looks
<Jalexander> yeah both there but hopefully others saw it (if you missed both someone else probably did too) . Both listed on the talk page too which should help.
<Jalexander> I think a good portion of our group hasn't used IRC before too which will decrease the turn out
<Fyrefly> hm
<Fyrefly> "First time: 18:00-19:00 UTC Friday "
<Fyrefly> "Second time: 00:00-01:00 UTC Saturday "
<Jalexander> ahhh
<Jalexander> yeah, I guess it's my interpretation ;) I think of 00:00 as still today
<Fyrefly> Yeah, this is my first time on IRC, but it seems quite simple
<Jalexander> (since it's just 7pm here)
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<Fyrefly> Ohh, I took it to mean 7pm Saturday
<Fyrefly> but that doesn't make sense
<Fyrefly> so that's my bad
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<Jalexander> nahh no worries. I think it's usually true that if you make the mistake someone else does too. So it was me not making it clear enough :0
<Jalexander> :)
<Jalexander> So as far as I can tell the 2 people from Wiki Guides here is Peter and Fyrefly, (if anyone else is here let us know!)
<Jalexander> I guess the questions are if you guys have any questions/comments and then maybe if we just have time we could work on some email templates or something :)
<Fyrefly> Um, well I don't have any questions/comments prepared. I was mostly going to watch, since I'm at work =)
<Fyrefly> But I expected a couple more people....
<Jalexander> yeah, I was hoping for a couple more but not a huge surprise. I think there will be a bit more tonight but it's also a side effect of just having about 40 of us. Harder to get critical mass
<Jalexander> but I wanted to at least offer them :)
<Peter-C> :/
<Jalexander> I can show you a cool tool that Shirley (User:MZMcbride) has started making for me/us/others who want to use it
<Peter-C> Sure
<Jalexander> so it's at http://toolserver.org/~mzmcbride/tracker/ you can type in a list of user names (like the ones you're helping) and get their most recent edits (up to 10) each.
<Jalexander> It isn't perfect at the moment but a great, and working, start. Right now you'd want to type in the accounts separated by |
<Jalexander> you can also do it as a link for example http://toolserver.org/~mzmcbride/tracker/?db=enwiki_p&users=MZMcBride%7CJamesofur%7CTmhm1.3
<Jalexander> or http://toolserver.org/~mzmcbride/tracker/?db=enwiki_p&users=MZMcBride%7CJamesofur%7CTmhm1.3%7C%C3%87a%C4%9Fc%C4%B1l
<Peter-C> Call me old fasioned but can't we use Special:Contributions?
<Jalexander> well of course ;) I thought something like this could be really helpful though to see them all at once (Contrib only showing 1) especially if you end up with a chunk
<Jalexander> eventually we'd like to get this to be a bit more self explanatory (if you look at it each chart is a different person in the order that it's typed/in the url)
<Jalexander> adding headers with the username (probably linked to either userpage or contributions page? would be one of the next steps
<Jalexander> and a Table of Contents
<Fyrefly> and probably making them diffs instead of just listing the articles?
<Jalexander> yup
<Jalexander> exactly
<Jalexander> or both (have a diff link in the table as well)
<Fyrefly> I'd be rather interested to see her code for that
<Fyrefly> I'm a web developer, but a shockingly un-knowledgable one
<Fyrefly> sorry, that's probably going a bit off-topic
<Fyrefly> I had a question about the dates we plan on starting now though
<Fyrefly> since the end of February is upon us
<Jalexander> definitely, nahh I don't think there totally is an "off topic" if you have a question it's fine :) . Yeah it's written in python, We can get you a copy
<Jalexander> yup, short answer is my ideal would be late tonight :)
<Jalexander> and if not tonight this weekend
<Fyrefly> you mean actually getting our first batch of new users then?
<Jalexander> yup
<Fyrefly> oh, wow, ok
<Jalexander> I still have a couple loose ends I want to try and get lined up but that's the goal
<Jalexander> I fly to San Francisco (the office) middle of the week and while I'm obviously still going to be available (basically the same amount except that I have meetings Thursday and Friday most of the day, I also have my laptop ;) ) I wanted to get things rolling for a couple days before I did that just in case
<Jalexander> there are some interesting ideas that people have had that may be nice to try but would happen in the next couple weeks most likely if we decided to. One of the tech staff brought up one yesterday that I'm going to discuss/learn more about next week
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<apergos> what was it?
<Irunongames> Sigh, BSoD on my main computer
<Irunongames> What did I miss?
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<Jalexander> Evidently we have the ability now if we want to send people though a special page to do a bit of click tracking. The biggest idea would be that we could give out links and know if, for example, someone clicked on the edit button that same session
<apergos> ahh
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<Jalexander> with the tracking being anonymous but we could probably track who the guide was if we wanted too to see if certain messages were doing great comparatively or something like that. Another idea would be with the new account project going up now to see the effectiveness of different new account pages.
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<Jalexander> I think we really have a bit of an elite force of Guides right now, the ones that are most interested in helping
<Jalexander> the talk page discussions and comments have been crazy, it's quite clear everyone has a lot of great ideas and putting them to the test would be great to prove they work (which I think many of them would)
<Peter-C> How many ideas are there/
<Fyrefly> Yeah, pretty interesting how some users decided to type an entire history of the Wiki
<Jalexander> Peter-C: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wiki_Guides take a look :)
<apergos> clicking
<Jalexander> Fyrefly: Aye, but good I think. There are a lot of people who had their own experiences or have been thinking about this for a while. That's how we're going to learn I think
<Peter-C> There's a lot of stuff there
<Jalexander> well that combined with brand new users who experience wiki
<Jalexander> yeah there is
<apergos> I wish we could record how different the experience was compared to how it is now (for new editors)
<apergos> that would be (I think) hugely enlightening
<Fyrefly> So was it really that chart that prompted this project? Or did you feel, as many others seems to, that wikipedia has gotten pretty hostile to new users?
<Fyrefly> that sounds like quite a difficult thing to record
<Jalexander> it's a bit of both I think. I definitely, personally, think that Wikipedia has gotten at the very least more hostile then we need to be
<Fyrefly> though the discussion on the talk page seems like a decent window into those differences
<Jalexander> There is also a question about the numbers which is a thing that the Foundation wants to focus on in their strategic plan
<Peter-C> Could we have a bot send people a link to a survey if they meet cetrain criteria?
<Jalexander> We definitely could (both by email if they have one confirmed or talk page)
<Peter-C> IE: Editors who signed up in the past month with 50 edits
<Jalexander> I do intend to do a survey for this as well (both for you guys and the new users ;) ) where I hope to get some of what apergos was asking about
<Peter-C> I also think we should survey people off the streets on their opinion of Wikipedia and editing it
<Jalexander> yeah. Did you see the Fundraising survey at all Peter-C ?
<Jalexander> they had some questions in there about editing that were interesting actually
<Peter-C> Nope, didn't see it
<Jalexander> clearly a bit of a bias pool (people who had donated in past years, and decided to answer a fairly long email)
<Jalexander> but about a third of them had edited
<Jalexander> and of the ones who didn't only about a 3rd of them said it was because they felt it would be too hard
<Jalexander> most didn't edit because they didn't think they had anything to add or would be good enough
<Peter-C> If I can edit anyone can :P
<Jalexander> that's what I keep saying!
<Jalexander> we just had a young editor do a teenage news program interview and he was saying the same thing lol "it really isn't that hard...."
<Jalexander> well look at that
<Peter-C> That's another thing
<Jalexander> the official/approved strategic plan JUST came out
<Jalexander> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Movement_Strategic_Plan_Summary
<Peter-C> Age is ANNOYING
<Jalexander> on the internet, no one knows if you're a dog
<Jalexander> (unless you tell them, then they think you're at the very least male)
<Peter-C> I am 15 and I feel scared to get involved
<Jalexander> why?
<Peter-C> RfA's
* Jalexander nods
<Peter-C> I'm a 15 year old male who likes to use IRC. No one likes me because I fit that demographic.
<Jalexander> there will be people who believe that you should be a certain age but then again there are also always people who think admins need to fit some other demographic
<Peter-C> That too
<Jalexander> not do vandal fighting/ do vandal fighting/ x FA's and y GA's etc
<Peter-C> And edit counts play a big role too
<Peter-C> I feel afraid to do anything but content editing because if I get involved in a AfD my opinion will be invalidated
<Jalexander> well at some level I'd say just keeping your head down and content editing is going to be a lot more fun :) Though we do want fresh blood in other sections too
<Jalexander> I can't help but give myself a headache sometimes with areas of the wiki
<Jalexander> and we certainly have young editors (even recently) who are able to get through that jump
<Jalexander> I think in general it's maturity that ends up being the real barrier, There are people who will use it as a hard wall blocker but you're almost always going to get a couple of those
<Peter-C> All of the ones I know go to private school and have loss their funny bone
<Shirley> Fyrefly: The code is public domain. I can probably paste it somewhere...
<Jalexander> because SOMEONE will think you don't perfectly match their idea of an admin :)
<Peter-C> Jalexander: - can I go off topic for a moment?
<Jalexander> course
<Shirley> Shirley is a whore.
<Jalexander> that's never off topic
<Fyrefly> That would be awesome Shirley, though I've never really looked at Python before
<Peter-C> i wanna do somrthing with Wikimedia northeast but I want to make sure it is feasible.
<Jalexander> sure shoot
<Jalexander> what are you thinking?
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<Peter-C> Could we get some money to get a small tent and some swag to lure people into editing?
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<Shirley> Fyrefly: http://dpaste.org/o4dw/raw/
<Jalexander> yeah, I think you could. You could pretty easily apply for a micro grant for the tent/supplies and get them to send you swag
<Shirley> Like an actual tent?
<Shirley> Wikimedia is already a circus. You shouldn't need to purchase a tent.
<Peter-C> More like an awning
<Peter-C> Like a tent at a street fait
<Peter-C> *fair
<Fyrefly> thanks a bunch shirley
<killiondude> I think a committee should be formed to consider that idea.
<Shirley> No problem.
<Peter-C> Consider what idea?
<Shirley> <Peter-C> I'm a 15 year old male who likes to use IRC. No one likes me because I fit that demographic.
<Shirley> I don't think that's your problem.
<Jalexander> yeah, I think doing some of those fairs could be a lot of fun and outreach like that very useful
<Peter-C> We should have done that globally on wikipedia day with all the free press
<Jalexander> yup, the parties did some of that with the swag but in a bit of a different environment
<Jalexander> we had a lot of new people show up for the two Boston parties which was great
<Peter-C> queation: even though editors have gone down have edits gone up or down?
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<Jalexander> on EN I assume. It's gone down, not as quickly as editors but down
<Peter-C> I've talked to Pharos and he says NYC can do the fair
<Jalexander> yeah, I think there could be some great places for you guys to do it
<Jalexander> swag and computers with wifi? ;)
<Jalexander> I know we had a table on that at Makerfare last year in SF
* Jalexander wasn't there but saw a report about it
* Peter-C raises his hand
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* killiondude calls on Peter-C.
<Peter-C> Could we have Wiki guides globally do these fairs and if someone wants to edit they will get their guide then and there
<Peter-C> and meet them in the flesh
<killiondude> The idea you're suggesting has been done before, like at Makerfare.
<killiondude> I'm not saying it's a bad idea.
<Jalexander> I think some kind of integration like that could be great. Have you seen WP:CONTRIB? The Contribution Team?
<killiondude> Just not new. :)
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<Jalexander> They actually had a "how to edit" event in the UK a week or so ago
<PeterSymonds> James never misses an opportunity to plug WP:CONTRIB. :-)
<killiondude> There are several ways to interpret that.
<Peter-C> You spammed the team to me last night ;)
<Jalexander> heh
<Theo10011> heh WP:CONTRIB
<Jalexander> I promised them I would :) A bunch of them are already guides and I think more will come. Same idea with the Online Ambassadors (and for that matter the in person campus ambassadors )
<Peter-C> Could we PAY people to edit?
<Jalexander> they want to try and cross pollinate and get involved and I think having things like that in other cities would be great
<Jalexander> no :)
<Peter-C> 100 edits = 25 bucks?
<PeterSymonds> You wish.
<Peter-C> More like a recruitment tool
<Fyrefly> I think you just suggested changing the entire business model of Wiki, haha
<Peter-C> New members who reach a certain amount of edits will recive money :D
<killiondude> wikibucks
<PeterSymonds> On the plus side, all the retired people will mysteriously come back. :-)
<Peter-C> Wikibucks is a way better idea then Wikibabes
<Jalexander> I'm sure there are Wikipedians who would both agree and disagree with you there
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<AFK> What is this place?
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<Hedgehog456> what's on at the moment?
<AFK> ohh
<AFK> i see nvm
* Jalexander waves
<killiondude> salut, guillom
<guillom> salut killiondude et al.
<Jalexander> basically just chatting about new users and a bit of the Wiki Guides project atm :)
<guillom> killiondude, how's life?
<Peter-C> What do new editors get when they signup?
<Peter-C> Is it "Yay! you signed up!"
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<Peter-C> Or "Thanks for signing up. Click here for a tuturial, click here for how you can help"
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<killiondude> Pretty good! I'm still getting over a slight sickness, but great other than that. How're you, guillom?
<PeterSymonds> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Welcomecreation
<AFK> Wait, meeting is over isn't it
<Jalexander> basically though if people still have thoughts/questions that's obviously fine :) I'll probably be basically just hanging in here while I work until the next one
<Peter-C> PeterSymonds - It worrys me the first thing users see is "Click here to edit your user page"
<guillom> killiondude, I'm good, work is good; sometimes it's difficult to work with SF people because of the time difference, but I love to have my own schedule and getting up after a good night sleep.
<PeterSymonds> Peter-C, if I recall, it used to be better.
<Peter-C> Wikipedia:Is not a social network.
<Jalexander> I'm not actually sure if that's what they see at the moment....
<Jalexander> it may be controlled by an extension
<Peter-C> Somone create a sock :P
<Jalexander> Their doing a study as we speak
<Jalexander> with like 10-12 options at least
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<Jalexander> not sure how their controlling it though
<PeterSymonds> Fair enough.
<killiondude> guillom: Great! What project(s) are you working on?
<Peter-C> Is their a place with all the surveys past, present and future?
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<Jalexander> I like http://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Account_Creation_Improvement_Project/Testing_content/Landing_page/Video_walkthrough !
<Jalexander> Peter-C a good place?.... probably not at the moment....
<Peter-C> Is the sage?
<Jalexander> it is
* Peter-C raises his hand
<Peter-C> It should look a bit nicer
<killiondude> beware: dorky wave at the beginning
<Jalexander> There are a lot of options, you can even design one :)
<Jalexander> http://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Account_Creation_Improvement_Project
<Peter-C> Use the stuff that was used to make that "I am a Wikipedian" videos
<Jalexander> the edit button video? :)
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<Peter-C> Remake it :P
<Peter-C> And you can have a bunch of WMF staff members in it
<Peter-C> And then end dramaticaly with Jimbo
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<Jalexander> booo, We no need to end with Jimbo :p
<Peter-C> Why not? He seems like the "poster boy" of Wikipedia.
<killiondude> Oh my.
<PeterSymonds> The editor appeal bits seemed to work well. Normal editors can do the trick.
<Jalexander> I think so yeah. There does <sigh> seem to be some appeal to him that I can't see but I think you could, in the end, get more out of normal editors
<Peter-C> Um...I closed out of Sage's video but I still here his voice
<killiondude> I still think that song, "What if God was one of us" needs to be remade to say "What if Jimbo was one of us"
<PeterSymonds> As much as I appreciate the staff, because their role make normal editing difficult, it may send the wrong message.
<PeterSymonds> makes *
<Jalexander> PeterSymonds: Are you talking about Sage or Jimbo?
<PeterSymonds> Sorry, it was a continuation of my reply to "And you can have a bunch of WMF staff members in it".
<Jalexander> ahh ok
<Jalexander> yeah
<Jalexander> I agree
<Jalexander> you obviously need to get editors who are ok with being in videos (some of which could be staff, like Sage) and that isn't all of them but there are enough :0
<Jalexander> :)
<Jalexander> wow. More videos then I knew we had http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Instructional_videos_on_using_Wikipedia
<Jalexander> Next IRC Office Hours: See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours - WikiGuide discussion hours 00:00 Feb 26th
<Jalexander> oops
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<Peter-C> That's a rap :D
<Peter-C> We need a Wiki guides chan
<Jamesofur> :) I was going to get the log together so I thought I could probably take off the the logging flag
<Jamesofur> we could. Someone emailed me about it too. I have mixed opinions
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<Jamesofur> I think we sometimes end up with too many channels
<Jamesofur> and just using #wikimedia or something would be fine
<PeterSymonds> I don't think we need a separate channel.
<Nemo_bis> «just using #wikimedia or something would be fine»: \o/