Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Sandbox/Succession/Archive 1

Archive of discussions relating to currency succession and succession boxes completed as of 19:55, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Types

1. Plain redenomination
   1 New Turkish lira = 1 million Old Turkish lira (2005)
2. branch-off
   Malawi and Zambia created from Rhodesian pound, but Rhodesian pound continue to live
   Eritrean nakfa from Ethiopian birr
   14 currencies from Russian rubles (1990's)
3. split
   Czechoslovak koruna died and became Czech koruna and Slovak koruna (1993)
4. merge
   12 national currencies --> euro
5. an existing one replaces another one
   Ecuador stopped using sucre and began using USD (2000)
   East Germany stopped using East German mark and began using (West) German mark
6. a country gains independence but still uses the old currency for a while
   Botswana, Eritrea
7. a country gains independence and choose to use a strong currency
   East Timor

New boxes

Southern Rhodesian pound

Challanged: earliest banknote date 1939. Global Financial Data (Actually I don't trust that too much either): "When the Southern Rhodesia Currency Board was established on November 1, 1940, these banknotes [private bank issues] lost their legal tender status on March 1, 1942." Formatting under discussion. --Chochopk 14:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I got the dates from the existing article. I'm not sure how to figure out what's right. Ingrid 18:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's anohter source [1] which shows banknotes from 1932.

I need to split Rhodesian pound into Southern Rhodesian pound, Rhodesia and Nyasaland pound, and leave some in Rhodesian pound.

I split the articles, and since I was splitting them, I put these boxes in. I used 1956 -- don't know where I got the 1953 date actually. The article said 1955. I guess it was from the formation of the federation. Any more discussion should probably happen on the articles' talk pages. I think we should clean this out, but didn't want to do it without checking with you first. Ingrid 03:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Challange again: (please don't think I'm trying to give you a hard time). Your source includes a note issued by Standard Bank in 1932. The year 1932 never appears anywhere else in the text. I'll quote some important excerps from TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY: AFRICA

Zimbabwe
Date	What happened
7/20/1892 -2/29/1940	The first bank was the Standard Bank of South Africa (headquarters London, England), in Salisbury (now Harare) The second bank was the Bank of Africa (headquarters London, England), in Salisbury (Harare)
3/1/1940 3/11/1954	The three colonies of British Central Africa established a currency board to gain seigniorage for member governments. Southern Rhodesia, Coinage and Currency Act, Act No. 32 of 1938
3/12/1954 -3/31/1956	Central Africa Currency Board The Central Africa Currency Board used Southern Rhodesian notes and coin designs and never issued its own distinctive designs.
4/1/1956 -11/15/1964	Bank of Rhodesia and Nyasaland The central bank issued federal notes and coins.
Zambia
Date	What happened
March 1906 -10/31/1940	The first bank was the Standard Bank of South Africa (headquarters London, England), in Kalomo, in March 1906 The second bank was the National Bank of South Africa (headquarters Pretoria, South Africa), in Lusaka, in 1918
11/1/1940-3/11/1954	The three colonies of British Central Africa established a currency board to gain seigniorage for member governments. Southern Rhodesia, Coinage and Currency Act, Act No. 32 of 1938
The rest pretty much the same
Malawi
Date	What happened
August 1894 -6/7/1940	The first bank was the African Lakes Corporation (headquarters initially Glasgow, Scotland, later London, England), in Blantyre, in August 1894 he second bank was the Standard Bank of South Africa (headquarters London, England), in Blantyre, on 29 April 1901
6/8/1940-3/11/1954	Followed the same pattern

So now the question is, do you want to consider private bank's issue as currency? It is the case for Hong Kong, for many years, and still counting. But one can also argue that these private issue in British Central Africa were really just British pound. But regardless, I think 1932 should be corrected to 1940. What came before that is open to discuss. The above table also confirms the 1956 date (instead of 1955 or 1953). --Chochopk 09:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel attacked or anything. I'm seriously impressed with the amount of research you've done, and the sources you've found. All I've been trying to do is format the information I have (most of it from Wikipedia itself) in a nicer package. I wish I could spend more time helping with the research, but I already feel like I spend too much time online. I'll update the date to 1940. I don't know how you'd decide if it was the British pound or a local currency. Ingrid 01:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

succession box moved to Southern Rhodesian pound

I went ahead and changed Southern Rhodesian pound, and updated the succession box to show when the colonies became Rhodesia and Nyasaland (4 column table). I think this makes it more clear and correct. Please read it for me to make sure I didn't mess up the text (I tried to clean it up, but am not completely sure I understand the facts correctly). Ingrid 01:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

What about "at par" instead of "1 pound = 1 pound"? I also changed the text of Rhodesia and Nyasaland pound that "the new currency was created in 1956" I still have doubts whether we should use "1 new units = x old units" or the other way. But I have trouble finding people that are native English speaker and NOT a programmer --Chochopk 19:47, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I fixed at par. I can't even remember which side of the discussion I used to be on. I checked GFC (I don't know the exact link, but you can go here and select "GHOC Excel Worksheet" which is an excellent source by the way. They use new = old, and it looks fine to me. I think that was what you were suggesting we use, no? Whatever we end up with, we just need to be sure to be clear (if new and old have the same name, use "new" and "old" to make it clear). So, should we go ahead and use new = old? Ingrid 21:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I fixed more at par on the real articles, and apply new = old order. I think we should have a guide line about how to write the ratio. Obviously 2 dollars = 1 pound could be written as 1 dollars = £0.5, or 35 dollars = 17.5 pounds. Well, the last one if of course ridiculous. But the choice may not be too clear when you have 100 Saudi riyals = 106.5 rupees. Is it better to leave it like that? or 1 SR = 1.065 GR or 1000 SR = 1065 GR, or 200 SR = 213 GR? Let's formulate that. I will also move the candidate boxes for Malawian pound, Rhodesian dollar, etc to the real articles.

I think the best strategy is to pick a distinctive few points in the world and we don't have to wait until everything is done to push them out. Right now we have a former British colony group in Africa done. Perhaps we should give higher priority to at least one former French colony group, at least something in the South America, something in the greater China region, Europe, and the former Soviet Union, so that experts of those regions/former colony group will be aware of this, make changes as necessary, or even better, help creating boxes of neighboring countries, or even much better, import the idea of succession box to their languages. They don't have to be crazy, complex examples that we find here.

Yet again another excellent source (the excel file), although I still suspect the accuracy of GFD. I hate myself for not seeing that earlier. But now I have to go back to the existing example, and re check them with every source we have... sigh I wish I have 48 hours a day. --Chochopk 03:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

As you've probably noticed by now, I got the Rhodesia stuff done earlier (back to British pound, forward to present). I wonder if we should have separate variables for "ratio new" and "ratio old" or something similar. That way, editors would not have to remember, and if we ever decide to switch back, it'll be easy. That way there would be consistent spacing around the = too (not that that's very important, but I like consistency). How to write the denomination is a problem as far as consistency. I think we have to recommend "dollar", "pound", etc, since abbreviations don't necessarily exist for older currencies (we could copy what GFD uses, but that seems like thin ice as far as copyright; so does using ISO 4217 to me, but others don't seem concerned about that).

As far as what to do next, my first priority is replacing the existing succession boxes with the new format so that if anyone sees one, it'll be the right one. What I'd already done (roughly) is the last section of the Currencies of Africa template except for Madagascar, back from the euro, and forward from the Austro-Hungarian krone. I think I did something random in South America too -- I'll have to see if I can remember what. I'd also like to put these boxes into the appropriate articles, as soon as you think it's okay. After that, I agree that it's a good idea to pick a bit from everywhere although to try to do it in some organized way so we know what's been done and what's left -- for that, we might want to copy List of currencies over to a project page and cross entries off as they're done (or maybe that's too much effort). Ingrid 04:24, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Another item on my to do list is fixing CFA franc, so that will affect all the French African colonies. My source is GFD though, so if you don't think that's a good source, do you have something better? Ingrid 04:40, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

There are "TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY". I include the links in the note section. I also use the Standard Catalog of World Paper Money. I recently bought the Standard Catalog of World Coins to aid me. Sometimes coins are issued first when a new currency comes out.

Is it possible to put dates (month/day/year) in the succession box? I think it would be useful when the inflation is too severe and there are more than 1 redenomination in a year (Yugoslavia, Hungary), or the redenomination is scheduled some time in the future (Mozambique)

Regarding "ratio new", "ratio old" variable, what if someone wants to put something like 1 (South) Yemeni dinar = 20 East African shillings = 1 British pound to indicate the relationship between the old, new, and some strong currency --Chochopk 12:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I am proposing something like

|style="text-align: center;{{{style|}}}" rowspan="{{{rowspan|1}}}" colspan="{{{colspan|1}}}"
|'''Currency of {{{location}}}'''
{{qif|test={{{subareas|}}}|then=<br><small>({{{subareas}}})</small>|else=}}
<br>
{{qif|test={{{startDate|}}}|then={{{startDate}}}, |else=}}
{{qif|test={{{startNoLink|}}}|then={{{startYear}}}|else=[[{{{startYear}}}]]}}–
{{qif|test={{{endDate|}}}|then={{{endDate}}}, |else=}}
{{qif|test={{{endYear|}}}|then={{qif|test={{{endNoLink|}}}|then={{{endYear}}}|else=[[{{{endYear}}}]]}}|else=}}
{{qif|test={{{note|}}}|then=<br><small>''Note: {{{note}}}''</small>|else=}}

This way, we can optionally add date, and disable link on the year to do something like circa. 1880 or "First quarter of 1700" --Chochopk 19:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

That sounds fine. Since these tables still aren't used much, maybe it would be better to just switch to not automatically linking the dates. I'm fine either way. Ingrid 00:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I just realize it's such an over kill to use variable like startNoLink. All we need to do is to put [[ ]] around the ones we want to link. So revised:

|style="text-align: center;{{{style|}}}" rowspan="{{{rowspan|1}}}" colspan="{{{colspan|1}}}"
|'''Currency of {{{location}}}'''
{{qif|test={{{subareas|}}}|then=<br><small>({{{subareas}}})</small>|else=}}
<br>
{{qif|test={{{startDate|}}}|then={{{startDate}}}, |else=}}
{{{startYear}}}–
{{qif|test={{{endDate|}}}|then={{{endDate}}}, |else=}}
{{qif|test={{{endYear|}}}|then={{{endYear}}}|else=}}
{{qif|test={{{note|}}}|then=<br><small>''Note: {{{note}}}''</small>|else=}}

--Chochopk 01:24, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Again, that is dumb. I think all we need now is to remove the [[ ]] around start and end of the 3 middle column templates. --Chochopk 02:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I took the brackets out around the dates in the template. I fixed everywhere that it's used except this page. My son (1 1/2) keeps "helping" me use the keyboard, so I don't want to tackle this page right now. I'll try to get to it in the next couple of days. Ingrid 04:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Rhodesia and Nyasaland pound

Facts verified. Formatting under discussion. --Chochopk 14:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I just realized that the earliest banknotes issued under the name of Bank of Rhodesia & Nyasaland is 1956. --Chochopk 04:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I got the dates from the existing article. I'm not sure how to figure out what's right. Ingrid 18:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

see above -- dates changed to 1956. Ingrid 03:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

succession box moved to Rhodesia and Nyasaland pound

Rhodesian pound

Facts verified. Formatting under discussion. --Chochopk 14:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

succession box moved to Rhodesian pound

Rhodesian dollar

succession box moved to Rhodesian dollar

Zimbabwean dollar

succession box moved to Zimbabwean dollar

---

East African shilling

Challange: This page implies that Yemeni dinar started in 1966, and the article of Yemeni dinar says 1964. I believe both are wrong, as GFD, TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY: ASIA, and Standard Catalog of World Paper Money all indicate 1965. --Chochopk 04:56, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Challange: The reason for was the formation of Federation of South Arabia (perhaps also Protectorate of South Arabia?) --Chochopk 05:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Question: When was Somali shilling created?

• The article of Somali shilling: 1960
• Somali somalo: The somalo was the currency of Italian Somaliland between 1950 and 1962. The somalo was replaced (along with the East African shilling being used in British Somaliland) by the Somali shilling at par.
• GFD: The Somali Shilling/Scellino (SOS), divisible into 100 Centi, was introduced on July 1, 1960 at par with the East African Shilling.
• Standard Catalog of World Paper Money: The first series was dated 1962
• TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY: AFRICA: "26 June 1961: The Somali shilling replaced the Somali somalo as the unit of account in Italian Somaliland. The name of the currency came from the UK shilling. Initially the change was just a change of name. Somalo notes continued to circulate until the first issue of Somali shilling notes was put into circulation on 15 December 1962 (Banca Nazionale Somala annual report 1962: 169)"
  • Note to self: (need more research)
  • British Somaliland (north) and Italian Somaliland (south) were pretty much independent of each other before WW2.
  • Italy captures British Somaliland in August 1940, and naturally issued the then currency of Italian Somaliland, Italian East Africa Lira.
  • U.K. took back British Somaliland and also Italian Somaliland in early 1941, and issued East African shilling in both places
  • British occupied Italian Somaliland was given back to Italy in Nov. 1949. And the Italians replaced EAS with Somali somalo.
  • Independence of Somaliland from Britain was proclaimed on June 26, 1960, and on July 1, 1960, unification of the British and ex-Italian Somali protectorates took place.
  • On July 1, 1960, Italian Somaliland was granted its independence. It immediately united with neighbouring British Somaliland (which had become independent on June 26) to form the Republic of Somalia

Challanged: Aden and East Africa Shilling
GDF: British Indian currency was the official legal tender in Aden from 1839 to 1951, though British sterling, Iranian coins and Maria Theresa Thalers were used as well.
GDF: On October 1, 1951, the East Africa Shilling (XEAS) replaced the Indian Rupee (in Aden) as the primary medium of exchange because India was no longer under British rule. TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY: ASIA: 1839-30 September 1951: used Indian rupee
Challanged: Zanzibar did not use East African shilling until 1/1/1936.

Fixed it, sort of (I used what you said above, and the GFD table).

• I used 1962 for British Somaliland. I don't know what's right.
  • Proposed guide line: if a currency of account or a vitual currency is created before the physical form is created, use the date of the physical. Another example is euro (1999/2002).
• I added a lot of detail for Aden. Mostly, I got this from Wikipedia. I'm not sure about the date of formation of the Federation of South Arabia. Wiki says Jan 1963, and I've found some web sources that agree. GFD says 1962, and I've found other web sources that agree, specifying that the State of Aden (part of the Protectorate of Aden) joined the federation in Jan 1963 but the federation was formed Apr 1962. I tend to believe 1962 since there's a reason for 1963 to be a mistake. I'm hesitant to edit the Aden pages without a better source though. Aden is complicated, and I don't like saying "remainder of", but it's the best I think we can do.
• I fixed up Tanzania, again. This time, I think it reflects the real situation.

Ingrid 00:38, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Uganda gained inpendence on 9 October 1962

East African shilling is a currency of independent Kenya from 1963 to 1966

East African shilling is a currency of independent Uganda from 1962 to 1966

The political entity East Africa started shrinking when each subdivision gained their independence (Tanganyika in 1961) --Chochopk 14:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

---

Taiwan yen

(This is where I grew up. It cannot be mistaken. So this proves that TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY: ASIA could be wrong too. --Chochopk 05:48, 13 January 2006 (UTC))
You might be wondering why I use Month-Day sometimes, and Day-Month rest of the times. Some places prefer using American English over British English, some the other way around.

revised and moved

Old Taiwan dollar

moved

New Taiwan dollar

moved

Notes

• Rhodesian pound

Rhodesian pound

the currency of Southern Rhodesia, then Rhodesia and Nyasaland and finally Rhodesia from 1932 until 1970. It was divided into 20 shillings, each of 12 pence.

---

Northern Rhodesia

created in 1911. eventually becoming independent as the nation of Zambia on October 24, 1964. Northern Rhodesia joined the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland when it was created in 1953

---

Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland

The Federation was established on 1 August 1953. The Federation collapsed (officially on 31 December 1963), when Northern Rhodesia gained independence from the United Kingdom as Zambia and Nyasaland gained independence as Malawi. The remaining territory, Southern Rhodesia, became known simply as Rhodesia and is now Zimbabwe. It became infamous in the world following its unilateral declaration of independence in 1965 under the Rhodesian Front.

---

Malawi = Nyasaland

The Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland was dissolved on December 31, 1963, and Malawi became a fully independent member of the (formerly British) Commonwealth on July 6, 1964

---

Southern Rhodesia

known today as Zimbabwe. The "Southern" was dropped in 1964 and Rhodesia became the name of the country until the creation of Zimbabwe Rhodesia in 1979.

• Russian ruble

Country		New Currency		Conversion Rate From Ruble		Date Introduced
Armenia		Dram		200		1993
Azerbaijan		Manat		10		1992
Belarus		Ruble		10		1992
Estonia		Kroon		10		1992
Georgia		Lari		1		1993
Kazakhstan		Tenge		500		1993
Kyrgyzstan		Som		200		1993
Latvia		Rublis		1		1992
Lithuania		Talonas		1		1991
Moldova		Cupon		1		1992
Tajikistan		Ruble		100		1995
Turkmenistan		Manat		500		1993
Ukraine		Karbovanets		1		1992
Uzbekistan		Som		1		1992

• CFA franc

I'm not sure how it was created. Further research required.

• 1949: French Somaliland (Djibouti) leaves
• 1960: Guinea leaves (from West Afircan States)
• 1962: Mali leaves (from West Afircan States) (at par or not?)
• 1967: Réunion leaves (for French franc)
• 1973: Madagascar leaves (1972 according to another source)
• 1973: Mauritania leaves (at par or not?)
• 1974: Saint-Pierre and Miquelon leaves (for French franc)
• 1984: Mali rejoins (1 franc = 2 Malian francs)
• 1985: Equatorial Guinea joins (1 "franco" = 4 bipkwele)
• 1997: Guinea-Bissau joins (1 franc = 65 pesos)

• Malagasy ariary

• Malaysia related

• In 1826, the British settlements of Malacca, Penang and Singapore were unified as the Straits Settlements.
• In 1888, North Borneo became a protectorate of Great Britain
• Sarawak had been a loosely governed territory under the control of the Brunei Sultanate in the early 19th century.
• The Rajah formally ceded sovereignty of Sarawak to the British Crown in 1946
• British North Borneo joined Malaysia on 16 September 1963, and is now the semi-autonomous state of Sabah.
• In 1963 Malaya became Federation of Malaysia with the acquisition of the British territories in North Borneo and Singapore.
• Sarawak became an autonomous state of the federation of Malaysia on September 16, 1963

• Yemen related

• North
  • Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire (some time after World War I), northern Yemen became an independent state
  • On 27 September 1962, revolutionaries deposed the King, took control of Sanaa, and established the Yemen Arab Republic (Pro Western)
  • In 1990, the North absorbed the South and formed the Republic of Yemen.
• South
  • British interests in the area which would later become the People's Democratic Republic of Yemen (PDRY), began to grow when in 1832
  • Aden was ruled as part of British India until 1837, when the city of Aden became the Colony of Aden, a crown colony in its own right.
  • In 1963, the Aden and much of the Protectorate were joined to form the Federation of South Arabia with the remaining states that declined to join, mainly in Hadhramaut, formed the Protectorate of South Arabia. Both of these polities were still tied to Britain with promises of total independence in 1968.
  • Southern Yemen became independent as the People's Republic of South Yemen on 30 November 1967
  • In June 1969, a radical Marxist wing of NLF gained power and changed the country's name on 1 December 1970, to the People's Democratic Republic of Yemen.
  • In 1990, the South merged into the North and formed the Republic of Yemen.

• East Africa currency related

GDF:

• The East Africa Currency Board of Nairobi was established in 1918 to provide a medium of exchange for British East Africa (Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda). On July 31, 1920, the Florin (XEAF) replaced the Rupee, equal to two British Pound Shillings or one Indian Rupee and divisible into 100 Cents.

• Indian coins circulated in Uganda until their importation was made illegal on July 31, 1920.

• On June 8, 1921, the East Africa Shilling (XEAS), equal to half a East African Florin and one British Shilling Sterling, and also divisible into 100 Cents, replaced the East Africa Florin.

• Tanganyika became the German protectorate of German East Africa in 1891.

• The German East Africa Company received the authority to issue Rupie banknotes and coins (DOAR) in 1890, which were issued at par to the Indian Rupee.

• The British East African Rupee (XEAR) replaced the German East African Rupee in 1918 at par with the German East Africa Rupie.

East African florin

• It replaced the East African rupee at par and was replaced by the shilling at a rate of 2 shillings = 1 florin.

East African rupee

• the currency of Britain's East African colonies and protectorates between 1906 and 1920.

• The rupee replaced the Indian rupee, which had previously circulated, with the value of the East African currency equal to that of India. In 1920, the rupee was revalued against sterling to a peg of 1 rupee = 2 shillings (1 florin). In East Africa, this was followed in the same year by the replacement of the rupee with the East African florin at par.

• East Africa political related

British East Africa

• covering generally the area of present-day Kenya and lasting from 1890 to 1920, when it became the colony of Kenya.
• However, the company began to fail, and on July 1, 1895 the British government proclaimed a protectorate, and in 1902 made the Uganda territory part of the protectorate also. The capital was shifted from Mombasa to Nairobi in 1905, and on July 23, 1920 the protectorate became the colony of Kenya.

Uganda

• The area was placed under the charter of the British East Africa Company in 1888, and was ruled as a protectorate by the United Kingdom from 1894. As several other territories and chiefdoms were integrated, the final protectorate called Uganda took shape in 1914.

Tanzania

• A German colony from the 1880s until 1919
• The Treaty of Versailles of 1919

Zanzibar

• The British Empire gradually took over, and Zanzibar and the British position was formalized by the 1890 Heligoland-Zanzibar Treaty in which Germany pledged not to interfere with British interests in insular Zanzibar. Zanzibar became a protectorate of the United Kingdom that year.
• On December 19, 1963, Zanzibar received its independence from the United Kingdom as a constitutional monarchy under the Sultan.
• This state of affairs was short-lived, as the Sultan was overthrown on January 12, 1964, and on April 26 of that year Zanzibar merged with the mainland state of Tanganyika to form Tanzania, of which it remains a part to this day.

GDF:

• This area became the British East Africa Protectorate on July 1, 1895, which was separated into British East Africa (Kenya) and the Uganda Protectorate in 1903.
• Uganda fell under British rule in 1890 with the British East Africa Company administering the region.