Jump to content

Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Peer review/2009

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WikiProject Novels
The WikiProject
Project page talk
Members talk
Guestbook talk
Coordinators talk
→ Current or Recent Elections
+ talk
JobCentre talk
Announcements (template) talk
Literature Portal talk
Article information
Popular Pages talk
Resources talk
Style guidelines talk
→ Article (pattern template) talk
→ Char. Article (pattern template) talk
→ Book infobox (pattern) talk
→ Short Story infobox (pattern) talk
→ NovelSeries infobox (pattern) talk
→ Character infobox (pattern) talk
Current discussions
General discussion forum (+)
 talk
Novel categorization talk
Work in progress
Main work list talk
Maintenance lists talk
Disputed novel articles talk
Disputed book cover images talk
Articles needed talk
Infobox needed talk
Infobox Incomplete talk
New articles talk
Departments
Assessment talk
→ Assessment Top priority talk
Collaboration talk
Outreach talk
Peer review talk
Task forces
19th century task force talk
39 Clues task force talk
Australian task force talk
CHERUB and Henderson's Boys task force talk
Chronicles of Narnia task force talk
Crime task force talk
Fantasy task force talk
Harry Potter task force talk
His Dark Materials task force talk
Lemony Snicket task force talk
Military fiction task force talk
Napoleonic fiction work group (military)
 talk
Rick Riordan task force talk
Science fiction task force talk
Shannara task force talk
Short story task force talk
Sword of Truth task force talk
Twilight task force talk
Roald Dahl task force talk
Diary of a Wimpy Kid task force talk
Templates
Project banner talk
Infobox Book (protected) talk
Infobox Short story talk
Infobox character talk
Infobox Novel series talk
Userboxes talk
This box:
• changes

Z. Marcas

I'm not sure whether this article is suitable for Featured Article Candidacy, but I daresay I've included nearly everything I can find about the story in 25+ books about Balzac. Thanks in advance for comments and thoughts! Scartol • Tok 20:09, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Awadewit
  • Balzac found inspiration for the main character's name when he spotted it on a sign outside a tailor's shop in Paris. - This sentence doesn't flow well with the rest of the paragraph. I don't think it works well as an opening sentence, either - it is too specific.
  • Although Z. Marcas features recurring characters and elements of literary realism – both hallmarks of Balzac's style – it is remembered primarily for its political themes. - This is slightly confusing, as we don't know what works the characters are recurring in at this point.
  • Balzac, a legitimist, believed that France was being ruined by mediocrity - What does being a legitimist have to do with the ruin by mediocrity? These two facts do not seem related.
  • The story also explores Balzac's conviction that a person's name is a powerful indicator of his or her destiny, an idea he appreciated in the work of Laurence Sterne. - "appreciated" doesn't seem quite right - "an idea he drew from the work of Laurence Sterne"?
  • Yeah, better. Changed. I don't have the book before me just now, but I chose that wording originally because the source was kinda vague. But I believe "drew from" works. (And no, there is no direct connection to M. Shandy.) Scartol • Tok 20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Although his views on politics were always changing, he decided in 1832 to attempt a run for the French Parliament. - Which house?
  • he mounted a serious campaign which was met mostly with ridicule - From the people? The press? Both?
  • I get the impression the people weren't too keen on his candidacy, but the only actual sources are from the press, so I added that onto the end of the sentence. Scartol • Tok 20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Determined to prove his point, Balzac launched a spirited search through the streets of Paris. He insisted to Gozlan that they would find a name suitable for a character he had imagined, a political genius thwarted by the mediocrity of the time. They finally came upon a sign for a tailor that enraptured Balzac, bearing the name Z. Marcas. He declared victory and chose the name for the protagonist of his story - Is there something about this name in French that adds to this story? Right now, it doesn't really make sense to me. Is the only explanation the one Balzac gives (in the Synopsis section)? I wonder if it would be better to place that explanation in the "Writing and publication" section.
  • I hear what you're saying, and I'm not completely opposed to this move. But the sense I get is that HdB's connection to the name was a bit amorphous and mystical at first, and he only later developed the deep meanings he explores (for about two pages) in the novel itself. So I structured the story of how the story came about, in part, to reflect that. (If it doesn't seem totally logical, that's okay, since I don't know that logic was what really drove him and Gozlan around Paris that day.) I'm curious to know how others feel about this point. Scartol • Tok 20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Yeah, re-reading it now, I got more concerned. Hopefully this addition helps: "He believed that the name "offrait à l'esprit je ne sais quoi de fatal" ("suggested some mysterious fatality"), and chose it for his story's protagonist." Scartol • Tok 12:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
  • whose identity is only scarcely revealed before the final pages - Something is off here.
  • Marcas appears to have been born destined for greatness - Which one?
  • Not sure what the question is here. Do you mean political or artistic or historical greatness? If so, that's never really addressed; just that he's got the markings of someone who will achieve great memorable things. Scartol • Tok 20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
  • savvy knowledge of public manners - A bit awkward
  • Do any of the sources discuss Sterne's Tristam Shandy specifically, which is where Balzac got the name bit? It would be nice to add the name of the novel and perhaps something about Tristam.
  • The primary reference to Z. Marcas is for its reflection of Balzac's political views - "reference" sounds a bit awkward. The whole sentence is a bit convoluted.
  • File:BalzacZMarcas01.jpg - This either needs the death date of the author (to establish 70 years +) or the license needs to be changed to PD-1923.

As for FAC, I think the only section that may raise eyebrows is the "Legacy" section. It seems a little thin - you might have to answer questions about that. However, if there is no more material, there is no more! (It's nice to be reviewing Balzac again.) Awadewit (talk) 06:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

It's nice to have you reviewing it. Thanks so much for this; I'll get to making the fixes soon. (Insomnia + 6 straight hours of classes every day = exhausted me!) Scartol • Tok 19:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
And I agree that Legacy is thin, but I just can't find nothin' else on it! I'm annoyed at how little I seem able to find about 20th century reception generally, especially since his international popularity didn't really boost up until Zola and James started raving about him in the late 19th. You'd think this book would have something, but noooooo! Scartol • Tok 19:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Don't you hate when the title promises wonders that the book doesn't deliver? Awadewit (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, just like when I spent $50 for How to Make Big Money Editing Wikipedia in Your Spare Time. What a ripoff! Thanks again for all the feedback. Scartol • Tok 12:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Comments from Figureskatingfan/Christine

Sorry it's taken me so long to review this article after the request. I'm transitioning between jobs the last couple of weeks, so things have been crazy busy. I've neglected all things WP these days. Anyway, I'm happy to review yet another Baal-zac article. I don't know how much more I can add after Awadewit's review, though. I will try very hard not to be repetitive.

Very nice article, as usual, Scartol. It's enjoyable, fun to read, informative, and up to your normal high quality. I think that with some tweaks and additions, as A has recommended, and this could be another FAC for you. It's definitely GA-quality, and if I weren't your friend and were reviewing it at GAN, I'd pass it as is.

  • General note: I think that as I've pointed out in other Balzac articles, the prose tends to be a little flowery for an encyclopedia, which is a little of what A points out above. Scar, I remember that you say that this an influence of Balzac. To be honest, I have no problem with flowery prose in lit articles, even here in the ole cyclo, but I had to at least mention it here. You might want to go through the article and tone it down a bit, 'cause I'm sure others will have problems with it as it goes along.
  • I admit this readily, but I think in some ways it's just the way I write. (I wonder if the prose in Emma Goldman is less flowery? I can't judge very well myself anymore.) Regardless, I think it would be difficult for me to revise the prose, since I tend toward the florid style we see here. Although I can cut down and simplify other peoples' prose, I doubt I can do it for my own. Scartol • Tok 16:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Background. I'd like to see more information about Balzac's political views, since I know next to nothing about them. I'm not sure any more than what you've described here is necessary, though. I'll let you decide one way or the other.
  • Yeah, I added some info in the Background section. I wanted to avoid duplicating what would later appear in the "Politics and society" section, but I think it left the reader wondering what his politics were. Hopefully the added stuff helps. Scartol • Tok 16:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
  • I've said this before, but I just love the inclusion of French. I wonder, however, why some of Balzac's words are in French, and others are not. For example, his quote about the state of French publishing (which is hilariously precious, I think) only includes the English translation. Is there a reason for that?
  • The reason is that these excerpts are generally from critical and biographical texts that are written in English, without a French original. I'm sure it's confusing, but my only options are to find the original on my own (which would take forever), translate it myself and hope I hit the original wording, or remove the other original French bits (which is obviously out of the question!!). Alas! Scartol • Tok 16:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
  • The synopsis seems a little short to me, and much of it is taken by the quotes. Is that because that's all there is to relate? If so, again, I leave it to your discretion.
  • Yeah, it's only 30 pages, and a lot of that is going into detail about all the double-crossing and betrayal that happens (to other people as well as Marcas himself) within the government. I could expand it, but not meaningfully. =) Scartol • Tok 16:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Then leave it as is! I wonder, though, if you could mention at least elsewhere the book's length. I suppose this is the one place where an infobox would be useful. That doesn't mean you should add them; I'm fully aware of your feelings towards 'em. But if you're gonna exclude them, perhaps you should include the information in the body of the article. You do, except in this one area. I'm being really picky, so if you ignore this suggestion, I wouldn't be offended too much. ;) --Christine (talk) 11:41, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
  • In addition to his distinctive name, Z. Marcas has a remarkable appearance which the students notice immediately. Remember that I am dense, please, when I admit that when I read the above sentence, I thought, "Huh? Was Z. Marcas a professor?" I even scrolled up to find the answer and then was reminded that "the students" were his neighbors. Perhaps you need to clarify that for other dense ones.
  • I'm a firm believer that if something is unclear in a piece of writing, it's almost always the fault of the writer, not the reader. I changed it to "his neighbors". Hopefully "the students" makes sense in the other spots where it's used. Scartol • Tok 14:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
  • You used the Doyle quote again! Tee hee, I just love that. One a personal note, I also love that Balzac used his characters over and over again. It's so brilliant and rare in fiction. Who else does that? The only other writer that I in my limited knowledge base can think of is Madeline L'Engle. On the low culture side of things, though, is TV soap operas, which use the same characters over decades, which is something that as a fan, I love about 'em. But please excuse the rambling diversion.
  • I know some crime writers like Iain Banks use a recurring stable of characters, but they tend to be a kind of "main team", around which a different set of adventures takes place in each novel. Nothing close to the panoramic vision Balzac produced. (And never apologize for rambling diversions in peer reviews you write for me. I love 'em!) Scartol • Tok 14:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
  • As Graham Robb indicates in his 1994 biography, Balzac's words were an accurate prediction of the 1848 Revolution. Not just that, I would say. As I read the "Politics and society" section, I couldn't help but think of the youth in contemporary France, and all the riots they've had in recent years. Has there been anything written about this parallel?
  • I agree with A about the "Legacy" section. It may be the one thing that stops this from a successful FAC. Although I wouldn't be surprised if you charmed its way through, anyway. If I saw this article, I'd support its FAC, even with this discrepancy. As my dear departed mother used to say, "You can't pull birds out of..."--well, I'm sure you can imagine the rest. ;) I so agree about the making money from Wikipedia discussion above! You'd think after the hundreds of dollars I've invested in Maya Angelou and Sesame Street books, I'd get compensated financially too. Anyone wanna buy me the two books about The Show that are coming out for its 40th anniversary for Christmas? Or even better, for my birthday coming up in three weeks! --Christine (talk) 04:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I can try going to the French texts, but even then I'm not sure I'll find much. Anyway, thanks for the careful attention to detail and I'll get to the rest of these points soon (probably later today). Cheers! Scartol • Tok 16:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Well, I haven't had time, but I wouldn't mind someday tracking down some of the French texts, and trying to make sense of them. Thanks again for the review! Scartol • Tok 14:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

The Last of the Masters

I've been giving this article a lot of attention over the past year, but recently ratcheted up my efforts to drive this to GA status. At this stage, I'd like some input from members of this project, as this is the first article for a short story I've put serious effort into, and I'm very unfamiliar with the unique type of attention this type of article needs. --Cast (talk) 06:46, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Update: This article has successfully passed a GA nomination since my initial request for a peer review. However, I would still like a review so as to improve it further for a potential FA nomination.--Cast (talk) 06:02, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

One suggestion, based on the (admittedly outdated) Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/ArticleTemplate, is to move the publication history to the end of the body of the article. The technical details about publishers and so on might lose readers early on, whereas a synopsis provides a more immersive, interesting point to start from. Skomorokh 03:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I really like the pull quotes in the plot summary. FAC might force you to remove them all, but you should fight to keep at least two. Those are pretty interesting :-) The pull quotes in the analysis section could be integrated into the prose, though.
  • Is there a picture of the cover anywhere? (was it ever published in book form?)
  • Spaced emdashes are outlawed per MOS:DASH. Either spaced endashes or unspaced emdashes.
  • In the bibliography: lulu.com?
  • Be sure to take a look through The Sword of Shannara's FAC's for advice and possible objections you may recieve. Otherwise, great article! —Ed (Talk • Contribs) 21:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for all of your notes. I've already acted on several. I've replaced the mdash template, which was auto-inserting spaces, with standard emdashes. I've also replaced "Lulu.com" with the company catch all term, "Lulu." Unfortunately, a book cover is not available, as this novelette was never published as a standalone publication. It has only ever been collected with other stories, and these stories were always on the cover. Cover pages are available, as the original 1954 anthology, Orbit Science Fiction, uses a designed cover and blurb for the story. However, it would simply be an decorative piece, and hardly illustrative or descriptive. It does not feature any of the characters, nor does it present an actual representational illustration. As I said, it is a simple collage of geometrics. I would like to keep the quote blocks in the Themes section, on the basis that the template was created for situations in which there is a shortage of images or figures. While "looking pretty" isn't the most important goal of an article, the visual aesthetics of the article lend interest for readers. The particular quotes I've pulled related to the general theme of the chapter or essay from a critic being quoted, and stand well on their own. However, they do not relate the "The Last of the Masters" in a very specific sense, and so integrating them into prose would require stretching their interpretation, in a way I do not feel would be appropriate. In the original context of the books, the quotes obviously refer to several stories, of which "The Last of the Masters" is one; however, in an article about a specific story, I would prefer to stick to very specific references. If this is unacceptable, I can replace or delete them entirely. On the other hand, I'm very glad you approve of my use of pull quotes in the synopsis section. Although images of the work are unavailable, even if they were, I feel prose quotes would be far more appropriate, given that this is a work of prose. They provide a greater understanding of the author's writing style at the time. Again, thank you for your time and if you can recognise any other matters of importance, please bring them up.--Cast (talk) 18:05, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

La Cousine Bette

I have lovingly reconstructed this article over the past two months, and I believe it's nearly ready for FAC. First, of course, I'd like feedback on readability and clarity. Thanks in advance for your comments! Scartol • Tok 12:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

"lovingly reconstructed" - I would certainly say so - This is just so much better than before your work. Credit! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 12:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Figureskatingfan's comments:

  • Great work, as usual, Scartol. It's a great article for those like me who know very little about Balzac. (As I've told you, the only exposure I've had to him is from The Music Man: "Baal-zac!") The scholarship involved with this article is outstanding and quite impressive.
Yes. I'm as straight as they come, but I'm very gay about my musicals. Much of my first encounters of literature, art, and music also come from Warner Bros. Cartoons. "Kiww the wabbit..." And I remember the MP song! It has my favorite all-time lyrics: "We love men individually, but as a group we think they're rather stoo-pid!" ;) --Christine (talk) 04:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm wondering about the tone of this article. The prose is excellent and interesting to read, but I wonder if it's a bit too flowery and "dramatic". For example (right from the first paragraph of "Background"): Because of his lavish lifestyle and relentless penchant for financial speculation, however, he spent most of his life trying to repay a variety of debts. He wrote tirelessly, driven as much by the muse as by economic necessity. This regimen, which included a steady infusion of black coffee, took a toll on his physical well-being and brought reprimands from his doctor.[2] My biggest issue is with the last sentence in the above example. "...Brought reprimands from his doctor" doesn't strike me as very encyclopedic, ya know? You do this kind of thing throughout the article. Another example is a little later on: Balzac's rise to literary prominence occurred at a time of profound transformation in French government and society. It's beautiful writing, but does it fit here is my question. Perhaps it does, and that's what you're going for. There certainly is internal consistency in this article, which is the first precept in the MOS. And it is about a French novel, so perhaps it's appropriate to use this kind of language. If you want, please ignore this feedback and take it for what it's worth.
  • I appreciate this comment, and I am always worried about this sort of thing. (I believe Awadewit mentioned something similar during the initial work on Balzac himself.) I think when I read his work, I tend to write like him. (His biographers do too.) Perhaps the tone should be changed in spots, but I personally enjoy mixing some poetic license into the academic rigidity. So I'll see what other folks think, and revise it as needed. Scartol • Tok 17:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I like this kind of language, particularly because it encourages readers to keep reading. The only warning I would give is that many FAC reviewers tend to balk at it, so be prepared to defend yourself. On guard! (The only sentence that gave me pause was the "muse" sentence.) Awadewit (talk) 21:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Remember I know very little about the subject. Is there a reason there's no image of the writer himself?
  • No, no reason. There probably should be one. I realized this about halfway through the article. I suppose I could swap out Mme. Hanska in the first section and put him in instead. Let's see what other folks think. Scartol • Tok 17:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I love it that you've included quotes from "the original French", especially in the images. An article about a French novel should expose the reader to the language!
  • Speaking of the images, it seems that one of the benefits of writing an article like this is that the book's illustrations are old enough to fall into the public domain. You did a good job choosing the images in this article.
  • Was the text originally illustrated? (Note that FSF assumes these are the original illustrations (a perception many readers will have, I think), but they are not. Should this be made explicit somewhere?) Awadewit (talk) 21:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Not a bad idea. Is it enough to include in a footnote somewhere? Or do you think we need a note in the captions themselves? (I haven't found any real info about them to merit inclusion in the article.) Scartol • Tok 13:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I love the Doyle quote, and the paragraph about Balzac's use of characterization is very interesting.
  • Heh, yeah. That paragraph is sort of boilerplate text that I use in each article about Balzac novels. I try to find information specific to each novel, but it is a good summary of what makes the characters stand out. Scartol • Tok 17:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • This is a long article. I wonder if you should separate out some of the sections. For example, perhaps you should create a "Characters of La Cousine Bette" article.
  • Yeah, I wondered about that. Right now the "readable prose" is 45kB, which is near the suggested limit of article length. But I also did my best to balance thorough rigor with extreme brevity. (How well I did must of course be judged by others.) So I guess we should wait and see what other folks think. (I'm not opposed to forking, but I'd just as soon leave it alone if it's all the same to other folks.) Scartol • Tok 17:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm thinking that the article should be cut down a bit. I'm deleting little bits here and there, but I do think that perhaps some sections should be condensed a bit more. I'm working on suggestions for this. Awadewit (talk) 21:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Yeah, lemme know what you think. I'll look through it again, but I'm worried that I'm still too close to it to be able to judge this sort of thing clearly. Scartol • Tok 13:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • She attempts to instill this ethic of indefatigable labor (attributed to her peasant background)... Risking looking like a dolt, I don't understand this phrase. What does "indefatigable labor" mean?
  • "Indefatigable" means "tireless". It's a fancy ten-dollar word that I often use instead of the simpler fifty-cent word. (This is a hideous violation of one of the cardinal rules of writing — see comment above about how I tend to write like Balzac.) I've changed that wording. Scartol • Tok 17:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Another phrase I don't get: Structurally, these women are grouped around men, for whose devotion they vie: Valérie and Adeline compete for Baron Hulot, while Bette and Hortense each want possession of Wenceslas Steinbock. By "structurally", do you mean that in a literary sense? I wonder if "these women are grouped around men" is even necessary. Perhaps this works: "These women are grouped about men and compete for their attention and devotion: Valerie and Adeline for Baron Hulot, and Bette and Hortense for Winceslas Stienbock".
  • Thanks for your comments. I'm looking forward to a smooth FAC (assuming people actually read the article — last time it felt like few people did). Scartol • Tok 17:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Comments from Awadewit
  • In general, I found the writing in this article to be much wordier than your usual style. I have copyedited a bit as I was reading, but you might want to read through the article looking specifically for that issue. Here are some examples:
  • The second paragraph of the lead feels wordy to me. For example, Balzac sought to dispute the supremacy of author Eugène Sue, whose socialist fiction was the most acclaimed feuilleton writing of the time - "sought to dispute" > "dispute"? "the most acclaimed of the time"?
  • The novel's characters represent rigid polarities of contrasting morality - Is "rigid" necessary?
  • His trademark use of realist detail is combined with a panorama of characters returning from earlier novels to create a sophisticated form of storytelling. - wordy
  • Replaced with: "His trademark use of realist detail combines with a panorama of characters returning from earlier novels." I'll do another scan through for excessive wordiness too. Scartol • Tok 14:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • The material in the "Style" and "Themes" section is poorly represented in the lead. Remember, some people never read beyond the lead!
  • We need redlinks for the adaptations. They deserve their own articles. (How shocking that the novel article came first!) Perhaps you want to write stubs for those articles? I see DYKs there.
  • This opened new opportunities for individuals hoping to acquire wealth, and led to significant changes in social norms - What were some of these changes?
  • I added these sentences to clarify: "Members of the aristocracy, for example, were forced to relate socially to the nouveau riche, usually with tense results. The democratic spirit of the French Revolution also affected social interactions, with a shift in popular allegiance away from the church and the monarchy." Hopefully these are clear, and don't compound the length of the piece too much. Scartol • Tok 16:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • At the same time, a new style of novel was gaining popularity in France. - Is there a connection between this new style and the changes you describe in the previous paragraph?
  • Not that I've seen. Does the writing make it sound like there is? So far as I can tell they just sort of happened at the same time. It's possible that there's a connection between the democratization of the government (limited though it was) and a democratization (if you like) of the art form. But suggesting this would be OR, I think. Scartol • Tok 16:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • The phrase "at the same time" hints at a connection. I bet there is one, but if you don't have the sources, perhaps a different introductory phrase would do the trick? Awadewit (talk) 18:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • This was a significant accomplishment owing to his bad health and earlier writing difficulties, but because it is one of Balzac's longest books, biographers agree that the speed of its composition was especially remarkable - This feels like a run-on sentence.
  • I agree. Reworded to: "This was a significant accomplishment owing to his bad health, but given its length biographers agree that Balzac's writing speed was especially remarkable." Scartol • Tok 16:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Mme. Hulot's cousin, Bette (also called Lisbeth), harbors a deep but secluded resentment of her relatives' success. - What is a "secluded resentment" exactly?
  • A resentment you keep hidden. I personally don't feel it necessary to reword, but I will if you think it's necessary. Maybe I should just switch it to "hidden"? Scartol • Tok 16:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • The plot summary is a little difficult to follow for someone who hasn't read the book, but I think that is because there are so many characters to keep track of. This is probably one of those plot summaries that is best thought of as a "refresher", eh?
  • Insert joke about how complicated that other book's plot summary is. =) Do you think it needs to be refined? I tried to be both thorough and brief, which is tricky here. (I kept wincing when I had to leave out something just on the other side of essential.) Scartol • Tok 16:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I think that these plot summaries are extremely difficult. A one paragraph summary is sufficient for the person who hasn't read it but the more extensive summary helps remind those who have. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Awadewit (talk) 18:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • previous appearances, however, give heavy significance to the characters' presence - I think a more precise word than "heavy" can be found.
  • Her lust for revenge and malicious activities lead critics to call her "demonic - "malicious activities" reads oddly
  • He later used her native Douai as the setting for his 1834 novel La Recherche de l'Absolu, and dedicated his story Jesus-Christ en Flandres (1831) to her, a decade after he wrote it. - How essential is this material to understanding the creation of Bette? I would suggest deleting it.
  • Another important character is the Polish sculptor Wenceslas Steinbock. - This is a weak beginning to a section.
  • Agreed. Combined it with the second sentence to: "The Polish sculptor Wenceslas Steinbock is important primarily because of Bette's attachment to him." Scartol • Tok 16:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Novelist Émile Zola called it an important "roman expérimental" ("experimental novel"),[83] and praised its acute exploration of the characters' motivations.[84][85] Other critics call attention to the nuance of plot and comprehensive narration style, and see it as an important evolution of the author's style – one which had little time to develop. Stowe suggests that the prose in La Cousine Bette "might in happier circumstances have marked the beginning of a new, mature 'late Balzac'". - This material is rather vague. I don't think much would be lost from the article if it were removed.
  • I agree, I suppose, with the bit about Zola. (On the other hand, since Zola is revered as the ubermensch of the naturalists, it seems important to include something about him in the main body text, especially since he thought it was such an important novel.) However, Stowe's point about the evolution of "late Balzac" is, I feel, very important. I would argue for keeping it. Scartol • Tok 16:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • So apparently I mixed in Stowe's points to the earlier part of the paragraph. I've rearranged it to make his explanation more clear:

    Some critics note that La Cousine Bette showed an evolution in Balzac's style – one which he had little time to develop. Pointing to the nuance of plot and comprehensive narration style, Stowe suggests that the novel "might in happier circumstances have marked the beginning of a new, mature 'late Balzac'".

    Hopefully this is more comprehensible. Scartol • Tok 14:56, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
  • The section on allegory needs to be explained better. What precisely is the allegory and how does it work?
  • I knew this was going to be problematic. =) I remember we tried sorting through allegory once before and I felt like I didn't understand it as well as I should to try to make the claim, so I just took it out. This time, though, I've worked really hard to make it as concrete as possible, using the original source material from Jameson and Bellos.
  • Jameson doesn't ever say (as most literary theorists don't, unfortunately): "This is the allegory I'm talking about." Instead, he discusses things like the "ancient mythological configuration" I quote in the article, as well as the "deeper personal myth" which is also quoted. I tried to get as specific as possible, but given the lack of specificity in the article, I really don't think it's possible to get more specific.
  • Therefore, I intend the word "allegory" in the subhead to refer not to a specific allegory, but rather the use of allegory as a tool. (In the same way we might discuss how character is developed in a work, as opposed to discussing a specific character.) I know this isn't the best way to explain the topic, but I feel that it's the best we can do (or at least the best I can do) given the source material we have to work with. (And I feel that given the number of times it's referenced in other critical texts, Jameson's essay is absolutely vital to include.) Scartol • Tok 17:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I'll read the article this weekend and see if I can do anything to help. Awadewit (talk) 18:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks; this section can only benefit from your input. Scartol • Tok 18:18, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I just took it all out. The more I thought about it, the more it seemed like an example of lit crit echo-chamberism. It comes up a lot in the discussions of the novel, but I guess in the end I don't believe that it's "absolutely vital" like I did two weeks ago. =) So yeah, it's gone. Scartol • Tok 15:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
That article was quite difficult - I agree that taking it out was the right choice. There was no way we were going to be able to explain that (ahem) stuff. Awadewit (talk) 03:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Valérie's line about Delilah being "la passion qui ruine tout" ("passion which ruins everything") is a symbolic presence - I'm not sure how a line can be a "symbolic presence".
  • These beliefs are reflected in La Cousine Bette. - This is a weak topic sentence.
  • The political themes seems to get short shrift here. Can this section be expanded to really delve into these issues?
  • Perhaps, but the politics are very very much in the background. I was actually quite surprised to see people discussing them, because they really only exist in the novel for people who know for which tiny subtle clues to look for. (This is why I put this section last.) Most of the discussion about political themes in the critical literature is either very general and unspecific (as in Hunt and Robb), making it very difficult to include. The more up-front political discussions (as in Mishra and Ronnie Butler) often feel like they're stretching the actual novel to make their points. So I'm willing to consider expansion here, but to be honest I have no idea how I might do it. Scartol • Tok 17:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • In contrast to the other sections, the "Reception and adaptations" section feels short. In particular, I was curious if more information on sales was available and more on contemporary reactions. Did Balzac puff his own book, the way he did others, for example?
  • I was also surprised by how little I could actually find about this stuff. The biographies always just say "It was a success" or "The critics loved it" and even the Bellos book titled Balzac Criticism in France, 1850-1900: The Making of a Reputation mostly focuses on what Zola thought and how Zola's interpretation of Balzac was tainted by his desire to use Balzac as evidence for his own leftist politics. (Bellos also goes way into the Fourierists, a discussion which I tried to keep as brief as possible. I could add more about that if you think it would help, but it appears to have been only one less-than-influential school of reactionary criticism.)
  • I think the fact that Balzac was finally about to marry Hanska and his declining health make sales figures and contemporary reactions fall by the wayside at this point in his career. In other words, by this time, people apparently kind of already knew what they thought about his books before they came out. The only real question was whether he had made his points skillfully in terms of literary craft. Or maybe the 30+ books I have on Balzac just aren't the right ones. =) Scartol • Tok 17:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
The 31st book would have the answer. I wonder if moving some of the material about "literary craft" which appear earlier in the article to this section would be an improvement or not. Awadewit (talk) 18:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I personally would think not. I like to keep that sort of thing in "Style". Scartol • Tok 18:18, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
  • The article is 45kb long - this is on the long side. I'm wondering if some material can be cut from the "Characters and inspirations" section. We learn a lot of details about the characters in this section, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to discuss these characters in terms of the themes that they embody. Many of the ideas introduced in the "Character" section are repeated in the "Themes" section, for example. Perhaps the material about the inspiration of the characters belongs in the "Background" or "Writing" section.
  • I've tried to cut out as much as I can from the "Characters and inspirations" section to remove non-essential commentary, and avoid repetition. Hopefully this helps; the "readable prose" length is now 41k. I would actually argue against eliminating the section altogether, or merging its info with "Background" or some other section. You know me — I don't usually do a "Characters" section. But it seems pretty important here. Scartol • Tok 18:18, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Sometimes it is good to compare - you wrote 32kB on Balzac AND all of this writings and now suddenly this one work can't be covered in fewer than 41 kB? :) Just a little friendly pestering. Awadewit (talk) 03:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

What's with his portrayal of women anyway? I'm curious to read the book myself. Awadewit (talk) 21:55, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't know what to think about all of that. It's curious too, since the reason Hanska wrote to him in the first place was to chide him for his negative portrayal of women in La Peau de chagrin. So I made a note at one point indicating that this book was kind of a full circle, and I wondered what she thought about it. (We don't ever really get mention in the biographies or critical texts. Someday I suppose I'll have to sit down and read all of their letters.) Thanks for all the thoughtful comments and copyediting; I think the Bette Davis pic swap was especially good. (I suppose I just love Helen Mirren so much, and I can't imagine wanting to associate yourself, as Davis does, with such a nasty character.) Scartol • Tok 17:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Ya know, guys, I was gonna make this same suggestion, but I hesitated for the same reason. (Mirrin's most recent movie can be tedious, but it's worth the price of admission just to see her tell some underling, "Bugger off"!) Davis' image is a better fit. You'd think that her bio page, which is an FA, would explain why she chose "Bette" as her stage name, but it doesn't. I'd bet, since she was called "Betty" her whole life anyway, she thought the spelling was cool. Which it is. Plus, the more exotic spelling and the association probably allowed her to play more villians and more complicated characters, which happpened. At least that's my speculation, and has very little to do with this article, but fun to talk about anyway. --Christine (talk) 21:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Actually, Bette Davis's article does mention it. Scartol • Tok 18:18, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but it doesn't explain why. That's what I'm curious about, doncha know. --Christine (talk) 18:58, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Wow, I'm really stupid for missing that. Yes, that's true — it doesn't mention why. (pounds fist) We demand answers! Scartol • Tok 19:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Scenes of Clerical Life

I've expanded this article substantially over the past few weeks and would like to take it to GA-standard if possible. I have two main concerns:

  1. General Wikipedia conventions that I have failed to pick up on due to my inexperience as an editor.
  2. With regard to this article specifically: have I succeeded in placing the work in context? I have a feeling that more may be needed to establish the religious climate in England in the first half of the nineteenth century, but am wary of letting it take over the article.

But really I'm open to all comments and suggestions for improvement. Thanks! El Staplador (talk) 12:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Review from the_ed17

Overall, this is a very nice article! Good work so far. My comments are literally in a random order as I go from top to bottom and back up and back down...etc., so sorry for that. :) (My comments are for this version)

  • WP:LEAD says that the intro should be a summary of the entire article. Though I only skim-read the article, I didn't see any mention of poverty, alcoholism or domestic violence anywhere!
  • Your references can be combined...a pain, I know, but someone at GAN, or at the least FAC, will ask you to do this.
    • Take a look at The Sword of Shannara, one of 'my' articles. See how the books are formatted so that the {{cite book}} templates go in a separate 'Bibliography' section and then the in-line cites have Author, Page(period)? Try that to clean up your reference section.
    • Heck, if you want, look at USS Nevada (BB-36). I put all of my books outside of the 'References' section to be consistent. That isn't required by any means, but it can help you keep track of all of your books. :)
  • Please try using {{cite web}} for your web references...only a link and access date aren't enough!
    • Also, use ref naming for different reference #'s for the same thing (Refs 27-28).
  • When you use <ref name="blah blah> just have a short little word or two that describes your ref. No need to get so detwiled and take up unnessessary space in the edit window.
  • You are allowed to have successive sentences covered by one cite...so you only need one [1] in the lead.
  • Refs come after punctuation (i.e. lorem ipsum.[1]
  • No spacing between double cites (i.e. [3][4]) and no spacing between punctuation and refs (i.e. blah blah,[5] blah blah.)
  • I didn't see this in the article, but in case you add a page range in there (I.e. Author, pp. 307–309.), you have to use an endash. Same for year ranges!
  • GAN might not require it, but FAC will ask for the character list to have out-of-universe info on the characters, not just "rehashes" of the plot. I.e. symbolism, why the author made that character how she did, etc.
  • Well, you could expand the background part, but if you are really afraid of it taking over, try using {{main}} with the article (whatever the name is) Religion in England in the 19th Century or Religion in England#Whatever section you need to link too.....I really have no idea what article you would use, but it was an idea. =)
  • Hope this helps. I'll have this page watchlisted, so if you want to reply, go ahead and do so on here. Cheers! —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 16:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for this. These references really are my nemesis! Thinking about it, I could probably cover the relevant parts of the religious question if I did a brief overview in the Background section and made a new section for Themes. Then I could emphasise the social issues that are also covered... why didn't I think of that before? I did have a look for an article that I could link to, but there didn't seem to be anything specifically saying "here is what was going on in England in the 1820s", just vaguely relevant articles about various religious movements. Looks like I'll have to write it myself if I want it ;-) El Staplador (talk) 10:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
No problem! I can help with the references if you'd like - just ask. :)
PR's, GAN's and FAC's bring out obvious stuff that you've missed...trust me. Don't get too mad at yourself.
I didn't know if there was an article...it was just a guess on my part. If you do write up something fo rit, remeber to nominate it at T:TDYK! Cheers, —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 16:06, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
So I lied...I helped with the refs anyway. :D So sue me. All comments below this line do not refer to the "version" linked above.
Ref #19 needs the year in which it was published.
"In English" is not needed in ref #28.
If anyone in later reviews asks "why are refs #1 and 15 reliable?", tell them that they were written by university professors.
Does ref #1 require a subscription? —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 19:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the work on the refs - I appreciate it! What I've used from ref #1 is all from the first page, for which a subscription isn't technically needed since it seems to be a free preview. I was slightly confused by #19; it's an encyclopaedia from bartleby.com [1], and I couldn't pin the date down to anything more precise than 1907-21.El Staplador (talk) 10:16, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
No problem!
Never mind then. :)
Humph. Well, I'm not exactly sure on what to do then... Leave it to your GA reviewer or, if you take it that far, to the FAC people. The guys and gals at FAC will call you on it, and then you can just ask them! Cheers, —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 14:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

(<--) In the "Religious Context" section...this para needs a ref.

During the period that George Eliot depicts in Scenes of Clerical Life religion in England was undergoing significant changes. While Dissenting (Nonconformist) Churches had been established as early as the Church of England itself, the emergence of Methodism in 1739 presented particular challenges to the Established Church. Evangelicalism, at first confined to the Dissenting Churches, soon found adherents within the Church of England itself. Meanwhile, at the other end of the religious spectrum, the Oxford Movement was seeking to emphasise the Church of England's identity as a catholic and apostolic Church, reassessing its relationship to Roman Catholicism. Thus in the early 19th century Midlands that George Eliot would later depict various religious ideas can be identified: the tension between the Established and the Dissenting Churches, and the differing strands within Anglicanism itself, between the Low church, the High church and the Broad church.

—Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 14:36, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Done, assuming that the History Channel website counts as a reliable source. El Staplador (talk) 15:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Is there anything in the way of numbers? Publication statistics, # of copies sold, anything of the like? —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 14:40, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Probably; I'll see what I can find... El Staplador (talk) 15:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the History Channel is definitely an RS.
Alright...good luck. :) —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 16:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
'Themes' section added. El Staplador (talk) 10:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels/Peer_review/2009&oldid=409390623"