Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review/Operation Aquatint

Operation Aquatint

Operation Aquatint was a very small commando raid during the Second World War, all involved were killed or captured. I have never done a battle type article before but this one just seemed to need doing. Any and all suggestions for improvement are welcome. --Jim Sweeney (talk) 09:33, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D

The article is on a very interesting topic and is in pretty good shape. My suggestions are:

The article needs a copy edit as there are a number of typos and some of the wording is awkward
The purpose of the raid is a bit unclear - why was it thought to be worthwhile?

Bit added the raids were a probe of coastal defence ordered by Louis Mountbatten.

Is any information on the preparations for the raid available? (planning, training, etc)
How was the figure of 10 commandos chosen? Was this the number that could fit on the MTB, or was it a tactical formation?

Its what the MTB could carry - added to text

Was the MTB operated by a specialist part of the RN trained in supporting raids?

The MTB and crew were just selected from coastal forces, with no special training or equipment.

The first paragraph in the 'Mission' section is a bit long and could be split into two paras

sus section added and slit.

Why was Captain Hayes executed, and were those responsible punished after the war?

He was executed only for being a commando, under the terms of the commando order, and those responsible were never punished - text added.

At present the article is written from the British perspective, and any further information on the German perspective would be useful (eg, what units were guarding the coast, how did they respond to the raid and what their casualties were, etc)

Being such a small raid I can find nothing from the German side. The only forces listed is the division that had responsibility for the area. The German guard dog was awarded the Iron Cross however.

Is www.combinedops.com a reliable source?

Probably not changing refs - most covered by Binney.

Maps and/or photos would be helpful Nick-D (talk) 05:50, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Skinny87

Needs punctuation looking at, especially the placement of commas and semi-colons. In the lede alone I found several problems, though I'm unsure how to fix them:

'Their Motor Torpedo Boat which was also engaged by the German shore batteries suffered engine damage and forced to withdraw leaving the commandos behind' - Needs at least one comma, probably two

'At the end of the raid those commandos who had not killed, all became prisoners of war' - I don't think that comma is in the correct place

Done

'Following a request from the Chief of Combined Operations Admiral Louis Mountbatten to probe German coastal defences, No. 62 Commando also known as the Small Scale Raiding Force (SSRF) which was normally under operational control of the Special Operations Executive (SOE), mounted a number of operations in 1942.' - Run-on sentence, needs to be broken up and more commas used.

Done

'The mission was to carry out reconnaissance, collect information about the surrounding area, and take a German guard prisoner.' - The first part of the mission description is redundant, as you have already stated that it was a reconnaissance raid.

Done

The first footnote doesn't seem relevant after the first sentence, and I'd trim it down to just the fact that the area was later a sector on Omaha.

Done

'and Andre Desgranges from France' - Did he have a rank, or was he a civilian/resistance fighter?

Done Free French Forces Petty officer.

'The Dieppe raid in August 1942 had changed the German fortification plans, the success of the German defences in repelling the raid reinforced the importance of the Atlantic wall' - German fortification plans where? Along the section of beach in question, or the entire seafront?

Done French coastline

'Germany had now started to reinforce gun emplacements with infantry strong points' - 'Germany' hadn't started the process, the local German authorities had, or Organization Todt or such.

Done

'The mission had previously been attempted over the night of 11/12 September 1942, but had to be cancelled after they arrived off the coast of France.' - 'They' = 'The raiders/raiding party'.

Done changed to MTB

'Moving at a reduced speed to avoid detection and avoid the mine fields' - What minefields?

Done offshore minefields

A lot of repetition of 'the commandos' in the second paragraph of 'Battle', would suggest replacing them occassionally with other phrases to break the text up a bit and make it flow more.

Done

'The commandos in the Goatley boat had managed to get about 100 yards (91 m) out to sea when it was located and engaged by three machine gun posts above the beach and a gun emplacement to the West also starting firing towards them with cannons' - De-capitalize 'West', and fix the disambig page to Cannons. What kind of cannons were they - it's a generic phrase at the moment.

Done they just called cannons in the ref so changed wording to heavier calibre guns

'Taken to the German headquarters he was put into a room, with Captain Lord Howard and Desgranges who had also been captured.' - How was Desgranges captured?

That's not covered in all the reference material, in fact he hardly gets a mention other than to say he survived the was and died in 1948.

'After 10 minutes it moved back inshore hoping to pick up any survivors, it was again located by the Germans at about 02:30 hours.' - 'but was again located...

Done

'The fate of the Dutchman Hollings has never been established, but the Commonwealth War Graves Commission records that Orr from Poland was killed on 12 April 1945' - First part of this sentence isn't supported by the single cite, and neither really is the second; there must have been more than one Polish 'Orr' in Allied service. This reads like Original Research - I'd suggest removing it unless more reliable sources can be found.

Done web link moved to his real name which also gives his alias of Orr and service details. Text changed to This was the last time any of the survivors had contact with Hollings or Orr. The fate of the Hollings has never been established, but the Commonwealth War Graves Commission records that Orr was killed on 12 April 1945

Mmm, I'm still unsure as to whether this is OR, given that all has happened is that the web citation title has been changed. I'd like some more opinions on this - suggest taking to WT:MILHIST or the OR talkpage. The reference from the CWGC still doesn't cover anything about Hollings, and you've got an extra 'the' in the sentence now. Skinny87 (talk) 18:07, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'but being a commando he was executed following the issue of the commando order which called for the execution of all commandos upon capture' - Repetition of 'commando' again.

Done

Are there any more sources that can be consulted - perhaps the sources used by Australian Rupert to write No. 6 Commando's article? There are a number of books on the Commandos that might concievably cover this raid.

I have looked most books that mention it pass it over in a couple of lines, there are a couple of web sites but they would unfortunately be classed as ^{[unreliable source?]}

Skinny87 (talk) 15:43, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review its great to get a fresh set of eyes to look it over.--Jim Sweeney (talk) 18:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Charles Messenger's book has some info on the survivors of the raid, which if it's okay with you I'll be adding in now. Skinny87 (talk) 20:03, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Okay, bits added; not a huge amount, but now we know what happened to Winters and Desgranges. I think the Hollings/Orr bit needs modifying, as the cite doesn't cover Hollings at all, and I'm still somewhat dubious about the Orr citation. Unless you have a specific citation stating that Hollings was never heard from again, I'd suggest removing it entirely and leaving only the Orr sentence. Skinny87 (talk) 20:13, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Oh, and now we know that Desgranges was captured and then escaped, does that muck up the details in the lede in terms of the number of commandos killed/captured/one unknown? Skinny87 (talk) 20:28, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry thought I had replied - the lede was changed prior so it still makes sense.--Jim Sweeney (talk) 10:24, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]