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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 05:20, 30 December 2022 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Sayf al-Dawla

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Nominator(s): Cplakidas (talk)

Sayf al-Dawla (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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The subject of this article is one of the most famous medieval Arab warriors, a figure both illustrious and tragic. Growing up during the collapse of the Abbasid empire in the early 10th century, Sayf al-Dawla carved out for himself a principality in northern Syria and Upper Mesopotamia, challenged a resurgent Byzantium for over twenty years, established a splendid court that gathered some of the foremost scholars of his time, and finally ended his days in illness and defeat. This article is of some significance for me since it is in the process of researching this fascinating figure that I got seriously involved with early Islamic history, which now takes up most of my time on Wikipedia. It became a GA back in 2012, and I have kept working on it since. I now feel it is ready for A-class and a FA nomination after that. I hope reviewers will enjoy it and help improve it further. Constantine ✍ 19:12, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review pass (t · c) buidhe 19:19, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Al Ameer

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A very thorough and well-written piece, and one that motivated me to work on Sayf's Mirdasid successors in Aleppo. Glad to see it finally moving to this stage. Some queries and suggestions:

  • Are we going with "the Jazira" or just "Jazira"? No guidance on which should be used, other than it should be consistent.
    • "the Jazira". The few cases where the article was omitted were probably because at one point it had been 'Upper Mesopotamia' instead.
  • Is it necessary to introduce his brother in lead as al-Hasan (better known as Nasir al-Dawla) or could this be simplified to just the common name?
    • Good point, simplified.
  • "Arab Bedouin tribes" Is Bedouin a term most readers would understand? If not, recommend modifying to "Bedouin (nomadic Arab) tribes" for first mention.
    • Rephrased and clarified.
      • In this case, it may be better to write it with parentheses as "Bedouin (nomadic Arab)" since Bedouin in this context means nomadic Arab. After that, you could use just "Bedouin" without the "Arab" qualifier as well as in place of "Arab" throughout the article in cases where Arab is meant to be nomadic Arab (as opposed to settled/semi-nomadic Arabs or Arab as an ethnic descriptor such as when describing the Hamdanid state). Al Ameer (talk) 18:05, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "managed to score a few successes" → "scored a few successes"
    • Changed
  • "Shi'ism" → "Shia Islam"
    • Changed.
  • "the Taghlibs", assume this is a typo for "Taghlibis" but just "the Taghlib" works good too.
    • "the Taghlib" it is. Thanks, changed.
  • "a fact which would" → "which would"
    • Removed.
  • "managed to secure the family's" → "secured the family's"
    • Changed.
  • "It was this strong local base which allowed" → "This strong local support base allowed"
    • Changed.
  • Might be out of scope to introduce them fully, but the locations of the Kharijites and Tulunids or where Husayn fought them might warrant a mention for context, i.e. "in the Jazira" for the Kharijites and "Egypt-based" or "of Egypt" for the Tulunids.
    • Done
  • "usurpation by Ibn al-Mu'tazz" → "usurpation of the throne by the Abbasid prince Ibn al-Mu'tazz" or similar contextual language.
    • Excellent point, done.
  • "His younger brother" → specify "Sayf al-Dawla's" or "Ali's younger brother"
    • Clarified.
  • Introduce Mu'nis as strongman, commander-in-chief or similar.
    • Changed.
  • Just for clarity, introduce al-Muqtadir as "Caliph al-Muqtadir"
    • Done.
  • Inconsistent spellings of "Al-Hasan" and "Hasan"
    • Fixed.
  • Should introduce Qaysi tribes as Bedouin (all the Qays, in this context, were Bedouin).
    • Done.
  • Since al-Muqtadir should be introduced as "Caliph" in the first mention, per above, remove "Caliph" from his second mention in the "Early career" section.
    • Done.
  • Sayf al-Dawla is mostly referred to by his birth name Ali ibn Abdallah until the point in his bio where he gains his better known epithet. Should the birth name be shortened to just "Ali" after first mention?
    • The reason was a possible confusion with Ali ibn Ja'far, but I think the possibility is slim. Apart from the first reference, shortened to 'Ali' now.
  • "The Egyptian" should be replaced or modified for clarity. Also to avoid confusion, either "the Egyptian leader" or "the Ikshidid leader" should be used instead of both, or replaced altogether with al-Ikhshid.
    • Chose the latter, as calling al-Ikhshid and Ikhshidid is, while correct, somehow weird.
  • Should mention that the Banu Kilab were Bedouin or nomadic and, in keeping consistent with the other tribes, mention them only as "Kilab" after first intro.
    • Done.
  • Would remove "originally Yemeni" from Tanukh, as this tribe had been in Syria since the 4th century and their Yemeni origins are not certain. Also, irrelevant since this article does not discuss the old Qaysi–Yemeni rivalry.
    • Good point, removed.
  • Hugh Kennedy → Kennedy after first mention
    • Changed.
  • Briefly define "sharifs"
    • Done.
  • Any information on the Halba's future; is it extant, or was it destroyed, etc. (if enough info maybe an article could be started on it).
    • Added. Not much info on it for an article, AFAIK.
  • Maybe rephrase or modify "it would become the bone of contention between the Byzantines and a new Muslim power, the Egypt-based Fatimid Caliphate" to avoid repetition from last passage in the "Illness and death" section
  • Mark Whittow is linked and introduced twice.
    • Changed.
  • What's the chances those redlinked viziers will have their own articles? If chances low, I would remove the redlinks.
    • Don't know, to be honest. If I ever get my hands on Canard's work on the Hamdanids, I guess the articles will be written. Otherwise, perhaps if some other source or another editor comes along...
  • Other than these generally minor points, another line or two describing the political condition of Syria, especially the north, before Sayf al-Dawla entered the picture may be beneficial for context. Namely, the deterioration of government (Abbasid) authority in the late 9th century, the invasions of the Qarmatians at the start of the 10th, and with them the explosion of Bedouin (Qaysi) tribal migration and devastation. Not a requirement, but could explain the relative vacuum of authority that Sayf al-Dawla entered and Nasir al-Dawla's "Syria lies before you ..." invitation. —Al Ameer (talk) 17:28, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Excellent suggestion, will work on it the next couple of days.
      • Unfortunately I lost a quite extensive addition I had written due to a PC problem, but maybe it was for the best, as it was quite extensive. I have added some details that provide some additional context, but would prefer to leave it at that. I don't have access to much info about the Arab tribes during that time, can you suggest a sources? Constantine ✍ 16:35, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks for providing the extra context. I'll work in a line about the mass Bedouin migration (and consequent devastation/destabilization) that shortly preceded Sayf's entry onto the Syro–Jaziran scene at some point, hopefully before an FAC. Al Ameer (talk) 02:45, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Modify "Arab sources" to "Arabic sources": the writers may or may not have been ethnic Arabs, but the language of the sources was Arabic. Also better than the alternative "early Muslim/Islamic sources" in this case, since some of the Arabic writers of this historical period were Christians.
  • Since you have started articles on many of the Hamdanid dynasts, suggest converting the family tree into an interactive one. Al Ameer (talk) 18:05, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot for the thorough review, Al Ameer son! Have addressed most of the issues above. Is there anything else that you feel might be missing, or that should/could be mentioned in the context of this article? Constantine ✍ 17:29, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It was a pleasure reading through it again. Thanks for addressing the above. Added a couple more suggestions, but other than that all set. Al Ameer (talk) 18:05, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Al Ameer son, sorry for the delay, it was a hectic month. I've made some of the additions promised above, and will convert the family tree to a template as soon as I can. Anything else? Constantine ✍ 16:35, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you @Cplakidas:. I'm satisfied with the further additions and tweaks. Happy to support and looking forward to FAC. —Al Ameer (talk) 02:45, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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HF

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I have no familiarity with this topic, but will take a look over the coming week. Hog Farm Talk 20:02, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think it would be useful to briefly state the role of the Caliph in the political sphere of the times
    • Some relevant context had been added in the 'Origin and family' section, it is there again. Is it enough?
  • Would the short religion section be better off consolidated with the paragraph about religion in the cultural activity section?
    • Was already done, following the revert, this is again the case.

Support from me; I'm not seeing anything that's a major sticking point for me. Hog Farm Talk 02:54, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hog Farm, thanks for your time, have responded to your comments above. Could you please have another look? Constantine ✍ 15:42, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Still at support here. Good work. Hog Farm Talk 20:34, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Iazyges

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Will take a look at this. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:31, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sayf al-Dawla was born on 22 June 916 (although some sources give 914) might consider moving this to a footnote.
  • The agreement of 945 was reiterated, with the difference that the Ikhshidids ceased paying tribute for Damascus slightly awkward, suggest The agreement of 945 was reiterated, except that the Ikhshidids were no longer obligated to pay tribute for Damascus
  • the various cities tended to look out only for themselves suggest the various cities tended to become self-interested
  • @Cplakidas: That is all of my suggestions, happy to Support now though. Hope to see the article at FAC sometime. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 02:36, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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