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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 11:20, 14 October 2022 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Jack Rae

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Nominator(s): Zawed (talk)

Jack Rae (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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It's been a while since I have brought an article here for an A-Class nomination but here we are, and in line with my current military aviation editing focus, it is a New Zealand flying ace of the Second World War: Jack Rae. He flew Spitfires on the Channel Front with No. 485 Squadron before serving on Malta in 1942, where he achieved a number of aerial victories before being repatriated to England. He returned to No. 485 Squadron but was shot down in 1943 and spent the rest of the war as a POW. The article a couple of years ago and went through the GA process a few months afterwards. Thanks in advance to all those who stop by to have a gander and leave feedback. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 10:00, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Hawkeye7

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Looks good to me. Some quibbles to prove that I read it:

  • "A year after the outbreak of the Second World War" Could we have the exact year, preferably a date when he joined the RNZAF? I know September 1939 is burned into most of our brains but mundane readers may not know this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After his flight training in New Zealand was completed, in March 1941" Drop the comma
  • "With the rank of sergeant pilot he was posted" Add comma after "pilot"
  • "on escort missions to France" I would say "over France"
  • "a few days later, on 12 August. He destroyed another Bf 109 less than a week later." The overuse of "later" makes it a bit ambiguous. Suggest "after that". The exact date would be better still.
  • I think I phrased it that to avoid have dates in successive sentences. I have put in exact date, plus a location from Shores & Williams to change it up a little. Zawed (talk) 09:41, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Shortly after his arrival, the airfield was raided which destroyed two of the Spitfires" Comma after "raided"
  • " a scramble to intercept raiding enemy aircraft during which his gunsight failed" Comma after "aircraft"
  • Usually we say "bail out" rather than "bale out", but I'll take your word for it that is the usual spelling in New Zealand
  • "Rae rejoined No. 485 Squadron as a flying officer in May 1943, which was now operating out of Biggin Hill." Suggest "Rae rejoined No. 485 Squadron, which was now operating out of Biggin Hill, as a flying officer in May 1943." to avoid subject/verb confusion
  • "He shared in the destruction of a Fw 190 on 27 July 1943" You don't need "1943" here.
  • "Prior to this, Rae was due to be promoted" to Flight Lieutenant? (And I don't think "Prior to this" is necessary.)
  • "Repatriated to New Zealand, he was discharged from the RNZAF in 1946" -> "Rae was discharged" since we have a new paragraph
  • "He was also involved in volunteer work, particularly for the International Red Cross which had provided aid when he was a POW in Germany." Comma after "Cross"
  • Any idea where he died or is buried?
  • Place of death added, but frustratingly I can't find where he was buried. I think he was buried in a Northland cemetery, probably in Kerikeri, but don't get any results when searching the relevant database. Zawed (talk) 07:45, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you add a "ref=none" card to the Kiwi Spitfire Ace entry. Odd that you did not use it.

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the support Hawkeye. I have been advised that Rae's book is ready for collection. I will give you a ping once I have finished adding any new content to the article that arises out of the book. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 08:36, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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All images are appropriately licensed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Ian

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Pretty well ready to support but early days yet and the article might change with others' comments...

  • Copyedited as usual but feel free to challenge if you think I've gone too far or misunderstood anything. I think I incidentally dealt with one or two of Hawkeye's concerns...
  • Structure and comprehensiveness look okay -- re. the latter:
    • Again per Hawkeye, I suppose you would get a lot more in by using the autobiography but there's a limit to what we can rely on there and his personal details seem to be covered fairly well anyway.
    • Agree with Hawkeye it would be good to get his resting place in -- Commonwealth war graves website?
    • You might also get some more details on his wartime exploits from the Osprey aces series if you have a mind or the means.

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:53, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ian, thanks for the copyedit. I have getting Rae's book from the library, will look to add some content to the article from that. Note that I have not been able to pinpoint the location of his grave, other than it was in Northland. Zawed (talk) 08:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ian Rose, Hawkeye7, thank you both for your comments. I had now added a few bits and bobs from Rae's book, see what you think. Thanks, Zawed (talk) 09:56, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Tks Zawed, I'm not sure if the tidbit about swapping planes but still recovering his extra supplies is necessary but by all means leave it and see how it goes at FAC -- these little anecdotes do help humanise the subject.
One other thing I forgot to mention before, but again it might come up at FAC: in a few places you use the term 'claimed' -- obviously this is perfectly normal language in the air combat business, as all credits for destroying or damaging enemy aircraft start out as claims by the pilot involved, but for non-military people it can sound loaded or equivocal; perhaps it might be worth double-checking how the sources put it and if they're definite then say "destroyed" or "shot down", and if there's any doubt (but he was still given credit) then say "credited with"... WDYT? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:04, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, just inspecting again, I realise you only use "claimed" twice. I think leave "claimed a probable Bf 109 and a damaged C.202" as is, it should be okay, but "claimed a Bf 109 shot down" should just be "shot down a Bf 109" if the source is definite about it. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:11, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I tweaked that second instance of claimed, the source is quite explicit that it was destroyed. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:46, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great, I think we're good to go. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review -- tweaked some formatting for consistency but reliability of sources used looks good. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:53, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright

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Back soon - Pendright (talk) 05:11, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Lead:

  • He was officially credited with the destruction of twelve enemy aircraft, eight probally destroyed, and six damaged.
Suggest: begin the 2nd clause with "in addition to" - which seems to be the case?
Done. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was posted to England in 1941 to serve with the Royal Air Force, and flew Supermarine Spitfires over the Channel Front with No. 485 (New Zealand) Squadron.
Suggest: begin the sentence with "Rae" and add "he" between and & flew
Done. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was forced down over France a few months later, and became a prisoner of war.
Drop the comma after later
Done. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Second World War:

  • The Second World War had been under way for several months by the time Rae joined the Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF), in September 1940.[7]
  • by the time -> Could replace with the word before
  • (RNZAF), -> why the comma?
  • On one such mission, protecting bombers targeting Gosnay on 9 August, he came close to running out of fuel and only just made the return flight to England, setting down on a grass airstrip where other aircraft were parked.
  • "while" protecting bombers?
  • Could drop only
  • He shot down his first aircraft, a Messerschmitt Bf 109, a few days later, on 12 August.
  • his first "German" aircraft
  • Why the comma after later?
  • He destroyed another Bf 109 on 19 August, over Gravelines.[14][15]
Suggest: He destroyed another Bf 109 over Gravelines on 19 August.[14][15]
Done. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Malta:

  • On 1 May, Rae was part of a group of four Spitfires scrambled to deal with an incoming Italian bombing raid.
"that" scrambled
Done. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • After recovering from his wounds, Rae was posted to No. 249 Squadron, also flying Spitfires at Malta.
Suggest: After recovering from his wounds, Rae was posted to No. 249 Squadron where he was flying (or flew) Spitfires at Malta.
This one I haven't done. The reference here is to the squadron, I have tweaked the text to make that more clear. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • He damaged a Bf 109 on 12 June when scrambled along with three others to meet approaching German fighters.[22]
Change scrambled to scrambling
This is another one I haven't done, grammatically I think scrambled works better? Zawed (talk) 09:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Several days later, he encountered Italian fighters, shooting down a Reggiane Re.2001 and damaging another.[23]
Suggest: Several days later, Rae encountered Italian fighters and he shot down a Reggiane Re.2001 and damaged another.[23
Done. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Finished - @Zawed: Pendright (talk) 21:25, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review Pendright, I have responded above. I have also added some material I got from Jack Rae's book as well, you will able able to find this by looking for the citations and matching it to the text. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The addition is fine - Supporting! Pendright (talk) 20:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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