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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Griffith Rutherford

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Nominator(s): Wikipedian1234 (talk) 19:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]


This article achieved GA a while ago and has been peer reviewed. I have followed suggestions from other editors to the best of my ability; thought it was time to try out for A-class. Thanks-- Wikipedian1234 (talk) 19:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright check File:Rutherford trace map.jpg has an inappropriate non-free rationale, because it is replaceable. Even if no map of the military campaign exists, it is possible to create a free one. You just need a free map of the area (or a free map of a bigger area, and cut the desired part) and add the points of the military campaign. Cambalachero (talk) 13:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have sent NC Learns a message asking permission under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 Unported License. Will update you on the situation once I receive a response. Thanks--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 17:16, 22 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]
Got a response. Apparently the image is released under the "Creative Commons BY-NC-SA license". Regardless the organization gave me full permission to use the image as long as I credit the author etc. Will consult the Commons on this and hopefully have a OTRS tag within a few hours--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
Done --(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 20:05, 14 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
  • SupportComments: G'day, interesting article. I see no reason why this article couldn't be promoted to A-class, although there are a couple of tweaks that I think need to be made first. At A-class, I tend to try to aim my comments towards FAC, as many will head that way shortly afterwards. As with anything on Wiki, I'm happy to discuss any points you disagree with:
    • firstly, as we currently have a large backlog at Milhist ACR at the moment, I would like to encourage you to offer a couple of reviews of other nominations (three reviews for one nom is probably best, but one or two would certainly be appreciated). However, I stress that this is not mandatory. Nevertheless, if you don't, it stretches our capacity even further and means that it may not be possible for this article and others to be fully reviewed (they require a minimum of three supports to pass);
    • Anyway, to the review...
    • there are no dab links (no action required), ext links all work (no action required);
    • there is inconsistency in regards to the date of death. The last sentence of the lead says "15 August 1805, at the age of 84". The infobox says "August 10, 1805 (aged 84)" and the Later life section says "Rutherford died in Sumner County, TN on 10 August 1805"; Done
    • in the lead, this probably should be tweaked: "where he married his wife, Elizabeth". Perhaps try "where he married Elizabeth Graham", or more simply "where he got married"; Done
    • in the Southern theater section, you probably need a second comma here: "Governor Caswell and Rutherford met in Kingston, North Carolina" (after North Carolina); Done
    • this should be plural possessive: "Soldier's enlistments soon began" (specifically "soldier's" should be "soldiers'...") Done
    • there are some examples of incorrectly displayed time per WP:MOSTIME, for instance here: "by 10 o'clock PM". It should probably just be "10:00 pm" (with a non breaking space before the "pm"); Done
    • there is currently a mixture of date format used in the article. For instance "10 August 1805" v. "September 14". Either style is fine, IMO, but it should be consistent throughout the article; Done
    • some of the emdashes are incorrectly spaced. Per WP:DASH emdashes shouldn't have spaces before them; Done
    • probably need a second comma here: "ten months at Castillo de San Marcos in St. Augustine, Florida" (after "Florida"); Done
    • I feel something is missing in the prose here, but can't put my finger on it: "Rutherford directed his force from small Loyalist militias to the British encampment and surrounding militias". Do you mean: "he directed his force to attack anything from small Loyalist forces to larger formations including the British encampment and surrounding militias..."? Done
    • the capitalisation of this section header "Later War", probably should just be "Later war" because it is an improper noun; Done
    • in the Later life section, is there a citation for this: "Rutherford died in Sumner County, TN on 10 August 1805"? Done
    • also "Sumner County, TN", probably should be spelt out, not everyone will know what state "TN" is; Done
    • in the Footnotes, but not in the References: "Piecuch p. 15"; Done
    • in the Footnotes, some of the page ranges have endashes, some don't. If you are aiming for FAC, it is best to be consistent and I expect that they will ask you to add them in; Done
    • in the References, I suggest embedding the Google books links. This can be done by simply adding the "|url= " param to the cite book template. Done AustralianRupert (talk) 00:23, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've added my support as you've addressed all my comments. I've not spot checked the article for sourcing or copyright issues, though. It is best to get this done prior to FAC, though, so may be one of the subsequent reviewers here might be able to do this. The issue with the image raised above will also need to be sorted before FAC if that is where you are looking to go. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 02:44, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments Pretty good, but I'm going to pick at some factual issues.
    • "Rutherford began his long career as a soldier in 1760 during the French and Indian War. He was a participant of several battles and skirmishes during the war, most notably the Battle of Fort Duquesne (1758)" -- did he begin his military career in 1758 or 1760? Do we know what sort of unit(s) he was in?
    • It is stated in the lead that his service was in the NC militia. This is nowhere stated in the early parts of the body.
 Done Mentioned that he entered the North Carolina militia at the commencement of his service--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 16:02, 23 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
    • "campaign against local Cherokee Indians who were attacking settlers on the western frontier." POV: please tell us why the Cherokee and colonists were at war.
 Done Mentioned their alliance with the British--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 16:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
I was actually looking for the Cherokee's own casus belli -- according to my readings (for example here), that would be encroachment on their lands. Magic♪piano 18:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Found a good source for this, should be done soon--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 16:02, 23 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
    • You should mention that Purrysburg is (was) on the SC-GA border near Savannah (i.e. almost as far away as possible from NC and still in SC).
 Done Clarified location (near Savannah, Georgia)--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 16:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
    • "a huge blow to the Southern Campaign" - umm, wasn't the "Southern Campaign" British, and Charleston would be a great success to them? (please rephrase this to avoid "Southern Campaign")
 Done Rephrased to "patriot cause"--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 16:34, 3 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
    • Please tell us what the NC militia did at Camden, and if possible what role Rutherford played in it (since it does not appear to be one of their finer moments).
    • Do we know who levelled the charges of his brutal attacks?
They seem to have been a collection of reports. The accusers are so far unknown--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 16:32, 3 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
    • What years did he serve on the Council of State? What was this body's function?
    • Was his time in the NC senate entirely appointed, or did he ever run for that office? (Seems odd if so...)
 Done According to McDonald he was an "elected" official--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 04:31, 2 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
    • There is inconsistency in his senate service dates. First he serves until 1786, then his vote in the 1788 convention costs him his senate seat. ???
 Done True date was 1789--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 17:22, 1 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
    • My understanding of the term "Line" (as in "North Carolina Line") is that it referred only to Continental Army units, and did not include militia units.
    • Where was he buried?
Some websites dictate that Rutherford was buried at Old Shiloh Presbyterian Cemetery in Gallatin, Tennessee, though this is dubious. I haven't yet found a source that states his exact resting place; not sure if it is truly known--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 06:21, 30 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]
-- Magic♪piano 00:06, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for commenting Magicpiano. Your critiques are always appreciated. Will get on to this soon. Thanks--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 01:04, 29 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]
  • Source spotcheck
In poking at issues related to Rutherford that are of interest to me, I've done some spot checks on the sourcing. Some points:
  • McDonald does not say Rutherford was in the Battle of Fort Duquesne (although he was on the Forbes Expedition); he (McDonald) dances around the issue. I suspect that sources may be insufficiently clear to state this. Some of Washington's men were in the battle, but I've not seen exactly which ones. It's possible that this book provides some more detail, but you'll probably need to track a hardcopy down. (It's also possible that Rutherford was somehow involved the Battle of Fort Ligonier, but the only detailed accounts of that I've seen mention Maryland militia.)
  • The URL in Clark does not link to a volume referencing Rutherford (Volume 2, not 25).
  • I missed the "short reunion with his family" in McDonald following his release. (There's also an inconsistency there between getting home in September and raising militia in "summer".)
  • This is perhaps more an editorial choice, but I would have referred to more modern sources in characterizing Rutherford's activities against the Cherokee. (See e.g. McDonald pp. 90-91, and p. 84, where he characterizes GR's men as "glorified pillagers".)

-- Magic♪piano 21:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I haven't updated in a few days, have been busy. As you know Wikipedia is being shut down temporarily in protest of SOPA. Will try to get as much done before this happens. Otherwise I'll finish everything immediately after it is restored--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 17:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
  • Oppose. Seems to be a lot of issues to be fixed. I'll mention just a few right now.
  • The text says he was born "about 1721", but your cited source says about 1731 (the same date given Boatner's Encyclopedia of the American Revolution). Presumably you wrote "1721" because that's what's on the tombstone. Mac Donald mentions both dates, as should you.
 Done Mentioned both dates (Wikipedian1234 (talk) 03:34, 5 February 2012 (UTC))[reply]
  • You say "he embraced the colonist's cause during the Regulator Movement". Don't know what that means, since colonists were on both sides.
 Done Made sentence more specific- "...he embraced the cause against the rebels in...". Should I give a brief background of the War or will this suffice? (Wikipedian1234 (talk) 03:23, 5 February 2012 (UTC))[reply]
  • Rutherford owned a few slaves; it's customary to mention that nowadays, otherwise it looks like the article is trying to hide this.
 Done Added info about his "eight slaves" he owned by his relocation to the frontier--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 03:46, 5 February 2012 (UTC))[reply]
  • The article seems to blur the distinction between service in the militia and the regular army. You have to understand and communicate this distinction when writing about colonial and revolutionary America.
  • You write: "Rutherford acquired nearly 13,000 acres of Washington District land awarded to him for his service in the North Carolina Line." That's not what your source says at all. Rutherford did not serve in the North Carolina Line; that's part of the confusion between militia and the regulars. What your source says is that Rutherford bought up the land claims of Continental soldiers.
Fixed that error in the "Later life" section. Will get on to the wider issue later--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 03:44, 5 February 2012 (UTC))[reply]
That's all I have time to review. This article needs more attention to detail, more familiarity with the soures and the time period. —Kevin Myers 02:07, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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