Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Edinburgh Castle

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No consensus to promote at this time EyeSerene^talk 09:40, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edinburgh Castle

Nominator(s): Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because I have been working on it for about two years now and I think it is ready for review. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 09:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from hchc2009:

It's definitely improved over the period!

(and support now by the way). Hchc2009 (talk) 16:19, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Formatting points:

On the formatting side, it needs to have the citations put into a consistent format. At the moment the style varies from:

Stow, John, Generale Chronicle of England, quoted in Masson, Rosaline, ed (1912). In Praise of Edinburgh, an Anthology in Prose and Verse.
Harris, Stuart (2002). Place Names of Edinburgh. London: Steve Savage. p. 11. ISBN 9781904246060.
Potter, p.12

- it really needs to be consistent.

Referencing points:

There are a few gaps in the bibliography - e.g. Oldrieve, W. T. (1914). "Account of the recent discovery of the Remains of David's Tower at Edinburgh Castle". Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland 48: 230–270; Accounts of the Lord High Treasurer of Scotland. X. 1913. pp. lxxv–lxxvi, 367; Grant, James. Old and New Edinburgh. I. Cassell and Co. p. 15. etc.

Second half of "Early Middle Ages" paragraph is uncited.

First section of "Description" is probably under cited (first paragraph has no reference at all).

Second half of "National War Museum of Scotland" paragraph doesn't have any citations.

Most of "Tourist attraction" paragraph is uncited.

Last sentence of "Symbol of Edinburgh" paragraph is uncited.

Content:

There's probably more you could say about the castle's role in manufacturing military equipment - there are some references to this in Castles in Great Britain and Ireland which might be useful.

Hope that's helpful, Hchc2009 (talk) 19:01, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Hchc, thats useful. I've gone through the refs and I think they are now consistent. I will need to look for some additional refs - but I'm not sure all the areas you highlight need them? For example, "Second half of "Early Middle Ages" paragraph", just describes what happens in the poem; and First section of "Description", is just a basic description of the castle - do these need detailed refs? I'll have a look at the refs on Castles in Great Britain and Ireland you mention. Thanks again, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 14:46, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to be a bit OTT myself in terms of referencing absolutely everything to ensure an audit trail; my personal advice would always be to cite (even if just citing the standard guidebook to explain where the layout description comes from), but you've a perfectly valid counterpoint that the material may not be contentious enough to require a reference. 16:00, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Coordinator note: I've pinged a castle editor, Nev1 (talk · contribs), to see if he can take a look at this article, but you may want to try finding other potential reviewers too. Regards, Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 05:19, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Nev1

I've had this article on my watchlist for a long time and have watched it develop with interest. I kept meaning to ask Jonathan Oldenbuck what plans he had for the article as it was clearly in good shape, but never got round to it. I guess this answers the question I never got round to asking.

Lead

It seems to summarise the article well, mirroring the content of the article. The only thing that stands out is the statement that "From the later 17th century the castle became a military base with a large garrison". Wasn't it a military base before then? I think this may need a little rephrasing.

Changed the lead around slightly to address this. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 20:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Geology

"But just as its location has rendered the castle all but impregnable": might want to tweak this slightly as the lead already stated that there had been some successful sieges. Maybe make it clear that the location make it difficult to assault? Otherwise, I feel much better informed about Castle Rock after reading this section.

Reworded and added another ref for this. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 20:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Earliest habitation

Is there any particular reason for presenting the earliest written mention of habitation at Castle Rock before the archaeological evidence?

Initially, no, because that was the way it was written before I came to the article. But having thought about it, I think its useful as it means the inaccurate legends can be dealt with before the more reliable archaeology. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 20:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's interesting to find out that an early name for the castle was a variant of Maiden Castle; you might want to add Edinburgh to the Maiden Castle dab page.

I'll consider this.

Early Middle Ages

"in the brythonic epic Y Gododdin, we find a reference to Din Eidyn": this could probably be changed to "in the brythonic epic Y Gododdin is a reference to Din Eidyn". I don't know which part of MOS is relevant here, but "we" is probably frowned upon somewhere.

Agreed, fixed. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 20:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

General

How does the castle relate to the World Heritage Site of "Old and New Towns of Edinburgh"?

Good point, it is central to it - added a ref to this after the listed building bit. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 20:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the lead "Castle Rock" appears without the definite article, but elsewhere it is "the Castle Rock". If Castle Rock can be referred to without "the" it might be simpler to drop the word, but at the moment it's a little inconsistent. Nev1 (talk) 19:17, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Its usually given the definite article, at least in speech. I've checked through and its consistent now - in the lead its "the volcanic Castle Rock". Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 20:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for your comments Nev. Hchc, I've added some more on artillery manufacture. Sorry i've taken a while to respond - the 'real world' keeps getting in the way just now. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 20:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note: this review has been open for about 32 days now. The usual ACR period is 28 days. As such, it needs to be closed shortly (probably in the next 48 hours). Currently the article does not have the required three explicit "supports" needed for promotion. In the interests of possibly achieving a successful outcome I believe that it should be left open a bit longer and I will leave a message on the main talk page asking for more reviewers. I will list it on the co-ords page for consideration after 48 hours (I won't be available then, though, as I have to work Sunday (Australian time)). Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 12:34, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm working my way through it. Should be done in 6-7 hours (as free time pops up after kids go to bed). Hobit (talk) 20:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments It's great to see a high quality article on this important topic. I'm close to supporting, but have the following comments:
- "During the reign of Malcolm III, Dunfermline rather than Edinburgh was the primary royal residence. This began to change though during the reign of his youngest son, King David I (ruled 1124–1153)." needs a citation
- "Grange's unpopularity with the townsfolk was further increased after his men made a sortie to set fires, burning 100 houses in the town, and then firing on anyone attempting to put out the flames." reads a bit awkwardly
- Much of the first two paras in the 'Description' section needs to be referenced
- "Below it are the Western Defences, where a postern gate gives access to the western slope of the rock." needs a ref
- Ditto "and gives access to the Argyle Tower. The eastern end of the Upper Ward is occupied by the Forewall and Half Moon Batteries, with Crown Square to the south." and "The square is formed by the Royal Palace to the east, the Great Hall to the south, the Queen Anne Building to the west, and the National War Memorial to the north", "The museum later moved to the Middle Ward, and the building now houses a function suite and an education centre." and the para which begins with "The most significant section, added to the remodelled North Barrack Block"
- "As of 2006, the current District Gunner, the 27th man to fill the post, is Sergeant Jamie Shannon, nicknamed "Shannon The Cannon" - can this be updated? Nick-D (talk) 01:00, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The article looks good and I am almost ready to support. However, the last sentence at the ends of a few paragraphs are uncited now (like Nick-D mentioned). Also, an uncited paragraph was recently added to the "Scottish National War Memorial" section. Try to to cite some or all of that if possible. Or it could just be removed. Thanks. -Fnlayson (talk) 17:04, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.