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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 20:20, 11 March 2024 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Crusading movement

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Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Norfolkbigfish (talk)

Crusading movement (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Toolbox

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because it was recently a DYK on the main page, following a successful GAR and looks in pretty good shape. However it probably needs a fresh pair of eyes. I am sure there are improvements to be made bur please be gentle, it can get to be a heated topic on here. Topic wise it is about the institution of Christian Catholic Holy War & the Crusades. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Hawkeye7

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Lead
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  • Suggest splitting the first paragraph at "The concept of crusading"

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Suggest merging the final paragraph with the first

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Background
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  • The first paragraph does not belong here, as it is not about the background; move to the Legacy section

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "was seen by a reformist movement" when was this?

 Done 11th century added Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:43, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • " identified three key pre-conditions" for what?

 Done crusading movement - added Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:43, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The crusades were not only a function of anarchy" That does not seem correct, given the degree or organisation involved

 Done badly worded, opposite was intended Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:43, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • " and when these factors played less of a part" This wording is unclear. Less of a part in what? Suggest re-wording.

 Done reworded to less significant, also attributed to the technical definition from International Relations Theory Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:43, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Christianity and war
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  • "Texts describe the development of a distinct ideology that promoted and regulated crusades." Suggest "A distinct ideology promoted and regulated crusades."

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The Church defined crusading in legal and theological terms based on the theory of holy war and the concept of pilgrimage.

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Link "holy war", "pilgrimage", "just war", "Old Testament", "New Testament"

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • What are "Christocentric views"?

 Done w-l Christocentric Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "fighting in Sicily" Suggest "Norman conquest of Sicily" instead

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The idea developed under Pope Gregory I" Should this be Gregory VII?

 Not done The source is explicit that it was the first Gregory, cited to page 10 of Erdmann Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The Church viewed Rome as the Patrimony of Saint Peter" I don't know what the significance of this is here - consider deleting

 Done reworded instead Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Penance and indulgence
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  • "Before the 11th century" Is "By the 11th century" mean here?

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:13, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Link "absolution", "Atonement in Christianity", " Calixtus II", "Albigensian", "Papal bull"

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:13, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • " with two recorded directives" Delete "recorded"

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:13, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Knights and chivalry
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  • De-capitalise "chivalry"

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:52, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • " The new methods of warfare" Spilt paragraph here. And what were the new methods of warfare?

 Done should have read these which now makes more sense, split the para later as this runs on correctly now Norfolkbigfish (talk)

  • "Military strategy and medieval institutions were immature in feudal Europe, with power too fragmented for the formation of disciplined units." I don't think that the second phrase is true. And what institutions are we talking about? And were there other that medieval ones in feudal Europe?

 Not done Hmmmm, as written it pretty much matches the source I think. Honig refers to Hans Delbrück In feudal Europe power was too fragmented for medieval rulers to be able to organise disciplined, combined units that could follow orders and execute tactical and strategic designs. He also quotes Charles Oman:Nowhere are more reckless displays of blind courage, or more stupid neglect of the elementary rules strategy and tactics to be found in the great expeditions to the Levant. Even where tactical ability is acknowledged, strategic thinking is absent because structural factors prevent decisive leadership. Armies were little more than plundering gangs in many cases. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:52, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Military orders
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  • Split paragraph at "Military orders" and "After the fall of Acre"

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:53, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • link "fall of Acre"

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:53, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Any illustrations available of one of the military order knights?

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:53, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perception of Muslims
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  • "Islam" is used before it is linked.

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:17, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sections on "Knights and chivalry", "Military orders", "Common people" and "Perception of "Muslims are not part of the background; move to the next section

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:17, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

12th century
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  • Link "Crusade of 1101", "Alfonso the Battler"

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Should "church" be capitalised?

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:29, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Calixtus II extended the definition of crusading during his five years as Pope, before his death in 1124. It is hard to imagine him doing it after his death. See Wikipedia:Principle of Some Astonishment.

 Done :-) Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:29, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

13th century
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 Not done—already linked at first usage. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:22, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

15th century
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  • "Warfare was now more professional and costly." Why?

 Done This was driven by factors including contractual recruitment, increased intelligence and espionage, a greater emphasis on navel warfare, the grooming of alliances, new and varied tactics to deal with different circumstances and opposition, and the hiring of experts in siege warfare. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Is the Great Schism the East-West or the Western? Suggest using the latter term instead.

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Link Ottoman Empire

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Split paragraph at "Around the end of the 15th century"

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy
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  • "or subject to migration" But Outremer was subject to migration

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:15, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Move "in 1936" to the previous section

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:15, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Historiography
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I don't know if the historiography section is relevant Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done— I was thinking along the lines of how the movement was perceived/criticised/lauded was all part of it as an institution. Particularly in the way it changed over time. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:17, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thx @Hawkeye7, I am busy IRL, but will get on these ASAP. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note

I will review once Hawkeye's review has been addresssed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:55, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @Peacemaker67, @Hawkeye7—just for my information are there any actions on this that you think are with me? I have have been assuming it is with you guys atm, let me know if my assumption is incorrect? As ever, thanks for everything you do. KR Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67: All my concerns have been addressed, Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:31, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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All images are appropriately licensed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:52, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM

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Big effort to get this together, Nbf! This might take a few bites to get through. I immediately noticed that given the amount of religious terms introduced, there is a need for more links. Also, quite a few links are made after a term has been first introduced, or two or more links are made to the same term (which is probably excessive).

Lead
  • extend the sentence following "Crusades" in the first sentence to explain what they were eg "Crusades – a series of religious wars initiated, supported, and sometimes directed by the Christian Latin Church in the medieval period." with appropriate links
  • link Christian martyr
  • move link to First Crusade to first mention
  • link penance
  • change the Biblical italics to a quote bound by quotation marks
  • "the recovery of Jerusalem and the Palestinian holy places" from whom?
  • for "papal" link pope
  • link Christendom
  • link Christian pilgrimage

 Done—Norfolkbigfish (talk) 18:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Background
  • "mundus" is obscure, provide its meaning
  • link Monasticism
  • link liturgy
  • link Res publica Christiana
  • link Cluny Abbey
  • link Christendom at first mention and delink later usage
  • German Historian→German historian
  • decap International Relations Theory
  • link Latin Church and delink later usages
  • link paganism
  • move link to holy war to first mention and delink later usage
  • link Christian pilgrimage
  • link Canon law of the Catholic Church at first mention and delink later usage
  • need a space after fns [7][8]
  • decap Empire
  • just war is linked twice in the Christianity and war subsection
  • if the just war criteria are inclusive (ie all should be met), suggest decapping first letter of each dot point and putting a semi-colon at the end of the first two dot points, "and" after the second dot point, and a period at the end of the last dot point.
  • state when was Erdmann writing, if his thinking has now been superseded?
  • suggest applying the same approach as with the criteria to the dot points regarding Erdmann's ideas
  • suggest piping the link to absolution to "remission and absolution of sin" not just absolution  Not done—T didn't find this page Norfolkbigfish (talk) 18:09, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • link contrition
  • link Confession (religion)
  • link penance
  • link Restitution (theology)
  • link Indulgence#Plenary indulgences
  • should it be "the exemption from atonement"?
  • link infidel

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:21, 10 December 2023 (UTC)  Done—Norfolkbigfish (talk) 18:09, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Evolution

This could take some working through.

Down to Birth, more to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:11, 10 December 2023 (UTC) All the above now  Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • while I am aware there is a book titled "Political Augustinianism" it is a book title, and scholars like John Rist decap "political" when discussing it. I suggest this should be "political Augustinianism".
  • Thomas Aquinas→Aquinas, he's been introduced already
  • rm comma from "This required what were partly inefficient,"
  • "The view on penance, that it could apply to killing adversaries" do you mean "it could be achieved/accomplished by killing adversaries"?
  • "The identification of the recovery of the despoiled country of Christ" I don't know what this means? The Holy Land? Or a metaphysical concept?
  • "led by a new knighthood" which knighthood?
  • link esprit de corps
  • link anti-pope A
  • comma after "William I, Count of Burgundy"
  • delink Hospitallers in "one by the Hospitallers"
  • move the link to Clement V up to the first mention
  • move the link to Cistercians up to the first mention
  • link forced conversion
  • link Schism
  • suggest linking dissenter for non-conformist
  • link Pope Gregory IX to Cardinal Hugo Ugolino of Segni then unlink later one
  • same suggestion about the dot points for just war applies to Segni's actions and to Gregory's actions (also link Teutonic Order in the latter and rm the later link)
  • link Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor at first mention
  • clarify that "against the emperor" means against the Holy Roman Emperor. At the most appropriate point I think you need to explain the relationship between the Pope and Emperor/Church and Empire, as it affected the crusading movement.
  • move the link to Innocent IV to first mention
  • what was the "after the conflict in Lombardy and Sardinia"? Is there a link?
  • explain "Staufen dynasty" or link
  • why use "general passage" rather than crusade? It is obscure to the general reader.
  • "Western Europeans blamed failures – the First Crusade" I thought the First Crusade was a success?
  • italicise "Würzburg Annals"
  • link Louis IX of France
  • who was the dean of Lincoln at the council? Richard de Mepham or John de Maidenstan? Link Dean of Lincoln regardless.
  • "Although aA minority view"

Down to 14th C. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:40, 12 December 2023 (UTC) All  Done apart from the highlighted—I will circle round and address later. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:05, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • careful with using an obscure term like Outremer to refer to something already explained, it just has the reader looking for the earlier use, or wondering what it means.
  • In general, avoid starting a sentence with "However". The sentence beginning "However, ideas, and the consolidation" is trying to say too much, and I cannot actually work out what that is.
  • the first para of the 14th C subsection seems to be more about the 13th C, with its focus on Gregory X, who was long dead before the 14th C began.
  • link Mamluks and explain who they were
  • suggest avoiding using Latin words when plain English would be clearer, ie passigium particulare
  • say what Routiers were
  • link Western Schism

Down to 15th C. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:22, 13 December 2023 (UTC) All  Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:32, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • The sentence beginning "His famous Latin letters and speeches" needs a rewrite. It isn't clear to me what the subject is.
  • "the conqueror of Constantinople"→"Mehmed II"
  • Pope Pius II
  • same suggestion about the dot points
  • "Exiled rulers" from where?
  • navel→naval
  • Bohemia? link?
  • Maximilian? link?
  • suggest "Alexander IV himself"
  • Spanish Reconquista? link?
  • capture of Granada in 1492? link?
  • Castile? link?
  • French Wars of Religion? link?
  • suggest "Catholic Church in Spain" as it wasn't a separate entity?
  • suggest "This is a contentious issue, as others maintain that the the Latin settlements in the Levant did not meet the accepted definition of a colony, that of territory politically directed by or economically exploited for the benefit of a homeland." BTW, where does this definition come from? Peacemaker67 from memory this comes from Phillips in the cited source (The Oxford History), although I suspect he wasn't the origin of it. Is this an issue do you think? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • de-italicise religious colonies, it isn't in line with MOS:ITALICS

Down to Historiography. Nearly there... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:54, 14 December 2023 (UTC) All  Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Historiography
  • I suspect there is quite a bit of overlinking as well as missing links. Once you are done, I will check it with the script and identify any.
  • at second mention "Jonathan Riley-Smith"  Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this section I expected to read about the perspectives of historians of Islam and Byzantium (and in fact I expected them to be compared and contrasted throughout, but other than a short sentence "The Muslim context now receives attention from Islamicists." it is missing. I don't think that is enough for A-Class, esp when there are sources like The Crusades from the Perspective of Byzantium and the Muslim World edited by Laiou and Mottahedeh; and The Crusades: Islamic Perspectives by Hillenbrand. Otherwise, I am now done. Great job so far. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:49, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you so much @Peacemaker67, I'll start from the top and work down. This will probably be next week, real live is a bit full on atm. Greatly appreciated. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:33, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
New paragraph added to cover the Muslim viewpoint, cited Hillenbrand and added to sources. Getting the scope right is challenging, particularly differentiating between what is about the movement and what is about events. Hope this fills that gap, what do you think Peacemaker67 Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All good, looking forward to seeing this at FAC in the fullness of time. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:12, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you @Peacemaker67 for all your time and attention—it has been interesting and fun. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:29, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by Adam Cuerden

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Six images. All kind of pass, but there's some issues I really need to bring up.

Failed Fixed now

I'll fix those last two at some point. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.7% of all FPs. 09:11, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both have been replaced with the full-size originals. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.7% of all FPs. 11:14, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Everything passes, if that needs said. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs. 06:05, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

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Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:55, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again, as ever @Hawkeye7, I will get on these soon. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:03, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @Hawkeye7, I think I have addressed all these. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All good. Passing. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:00, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Donner60

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12th century
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  • Consider deleting "although it is likely that had the First Crusade failed this would have been different" While I think this is a logical conclusion, I am concerned that in an A-class article this could be criticized as speculation, or worse, original research, unless directly supported by a citation.  Done It is pretty much what Riley-Smith wrote in the source, but it is subjective. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:02, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have deleted "by" in the phrase "Urban he by defeated the three." If this is not a typo, perhaps it is the remnants of a draft phrase which was either not completed or not completely removed? Green tickY you are right, it is left over detritus from various edits. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:02, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will resume my review at this point later.

13th century
[edit]
  • The paragraph starting with "Between 1217 and 1221, Cardinal Hugo Ugolino of Segni..." and ending with bullet points has no citation.  Done It was cited to Tyerman in the following sentence. Added Paragraph break to make this obvious. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
14th century
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15th century
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  • Suggest that after "the Hospitallers retreated from Rhodes..." add "to Crete and Sicily and in 1530 to Malta and Gozo." and break sentence at this point.

I will resume my review soon with the "Legacy" section. Donner60 (talk) 02:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC)  Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:09, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you @Donner60, I will get to these asap, just very busy IRL atm though :-) Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:22, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have done a great job of providing competing points of view in the concluding sections. I think your responses to the previous reviews provide balance and neutrality. These are excellent summary sections. The only minor comment that I have is that I probably would have written "in the Holy Land" rather than "on the Holy Land" in the second paragraph of Legacy. I think it is ok either way so I am going to support without further recommendations. An outstanding article on a difficult topic but interesting and easy reading throughout. Even with my limited comments, I am only the third reviewer and there is not a third full or nearly complete previous review. So I will recommend that an uninvolved coordinator take a look at this for passing on to A class. Donner60 (talk) 10:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for you kind words @Donner60, it has been a long journey to get to this point. I have taken your point on on the Holy Land I think that was a mistake on my behalf. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:59, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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