Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Battle of Fakhkh

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 03:20, 26 September 2020 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list

Battle of Fakhkh

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Nominator(s): Cplakidas (talk)

Battle of Fakhkh (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

The Battle of Fakhkh was the result of a failed Alid/Shia uprising against the Abbasid Caliphate in 786. Its most notable effect was that some of the Alid participants dispersed in its aftermath to the far corners of the Islamic world, where the Abbasid writ did not run; the first Shi'a dynasty, the Idrisids of Morocco, was the chief result of this. Nevertheless, the events of the revolt give a vivid picture of the rivalries and competing concepts of political authority in early Islam. The article was recently expanded and brought to GA, and I am certain it is ready for A-class as well. Any comments or suggestions for improvement are of course more than welcome. Constantine ✍ 09:41, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

CommentsSupport from Hog Farm

Disclaimer: I have extremely little background knowledge of this topic, so some of my comments may be way off base. Hog Farm _Bacon 02:56, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

• What calendar is being used for these dates?
  • AD/CE, why?
    • I thought I'd read somewhere that there was a special Islamic calendar
      • Yes there is, the Hijri calendar, you can detect when years are counted in it by the annotation "AH" (Anno Hegirae). But this isn't used at all here, all dates have been converted into the Julian/Common Era calendar (including in the sources used) for convenience
• "The uprisingled had a strong social character" - Uprisingled?
  • Fixed
• Preparation and outbreak of the revolt at Medina - This feels like an unnecessarily long section title
  • Good point, shortened
• " flogged and publicly humiliated for drinking wine;" - For context, I think you should probably include a brief statement about Islamic views on the consumption of alcohol in this time period
  • Good point, added
• "one of them Musa ibn Ja'far al-Kadhim, who is considered as the seventh imam by the Twelver Shi'a, who reportedly warned Husayn that his actions would only result in his death" - Grammatically, this doesn't read right to me
  • Fixed
• "In their wake, they left the mosque in such a state of filth, defiled with bones of the animals the beleaguered Alids had been eating, and its curtains cut up to make kaftans, leading to general indignation among the Medinese" - Drop such
  • Drop what? You mean tone down the description?
    • The word "such"
      • Hah, of course. Done.
• " had taken a long a strong escort" - Should be along, not a long
  • Fixed
• Mecca is a duplink in the lead
  • Fixed
• Medina is an overlink in the body
  • Fixed

Unfortunately, I don't have the background knowledge necessary to provide an in-depth analysis beyond a stylistic one. Hog Farm _Bacon 03:14, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Hog Farm thanks for taking the time. I've answered your comments above. No worries on lacking the background knowledge, the topic is rather niche... I am really interested in whether the article is readable and understandable precisely from the viewpoint of the average reader who isn't versed in early Islamic history. If you have any comments or suggestions for improvements there (quite beyond ACR requirements), I am all ears. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 16:21, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Image review—pass

All images are free (t · c) buidhe 07:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Source review—pass

All sources appear to be reliable, no source checks done (t · c) buidhe 07:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

CommentsSupport by PM

Fine work as expected. A few comments:

Lead

• who is "also known in later histories"? al-Husayn ibn Ali or Hasan ibn Ali?
  • Clarified, thanks
• suggest "where Husayn's supporters swore allegiance to him."
  • Done
• it isn't clear in the lead (or body) how the Alids got out of Medina if they were holed up in the mosque. Was there an agreement for safe passage or something?
  • Nothing is explicitly stated in the sources, but you can think of the city as a neutral battleground, in which two gangs fought for control in the central square. When one of the two gangs decided to withdraw, the other gang was glad to see them go, and no-one else was about to intervene since this meant the end of the clashes.

Body

• "The relationship between the Abbasids and the Alids was troubled and underwent many changes." seems out of place, because it goes on immediately to talk about the Alids and the Umayyads rather than the Abbasids and the Alids
  • Good point. Have rephrased and put both in the context of their common origin in the anti-Umayyad movements.
• could you provide a timeframe for the troubled Alid and Umayyad relationship?
• who was "inspired by the belief..."? in general, this sentence is too long, break it up
  • See my rewrite
• "and had to face a major Alid revolt"
  • Done
• the sentence beginning "Al-Husayn ibn Ali, a close relative" is trying to do too much. Suggest "A close relative of Muhammad al-Nafs al-Zakiyya was Al-Husayn ibn Ali. His father Ali was Muhammad's first cousin, and his mother Zaynab was Muhammad's aunt. Husayn grew up "in an atmosphere of extreme piety and of secret hatred for the Abbasids"."
  • Thanks, that is indeed much better
• al-Mahdi's reign is given as 775–786, but he died in July 785?
  • Typo error, fixed.
• suggest "The historian Al-Tabari"
  • Done
• "and that he had three men"
  • Done
• link Flagellation
  • Done
• "against consumption of alcohol by drinking wine"
  • Done
• "from the subsequent passages", worth reminding us that this is from Al-Tabari, if that is right
  • Done
• is there some implied knowledge about a Sunni/Shi'a divide that should be stated explicitly?
• "hostility towards the Alids, causing great discontent among the Shi'a" implies they are one and the same, but is this because the Alids were leaders among the Shi'a?
  • For both of the above, I've added the link between the two groups to the initial discussion of the Alids.
• "two of the Alids" just two people, or senior Alid leaders?
  • Two of the Alids, i.e. two descendants of Ali. Since leadership was the potential prerogative of every Alid, the distinction does not matter here. I do draw a distinction between the Alids and their followers, though.
• Yahya ibn Abdallah is redlinked after he is first mentioned
  • Thanks, fixed
• "Abbasid partisans"? and later Alids are referred to as partisans - confusing. What about just troops/rebels?
  • "Partisans" here is in the sense of belonging to a political faction/party, not as a guerrilla.
• "Caliph al-Hadi "
  • Done
• "who sent it on to Khurasan" why there?
  • Not clarified in the source. However, Khurasan was notorious as a sectarian breeding-ground: it was there that the Abbasid Revolution had begun, after all. And as the most extensive province of the caliphate, the Abbasids were very anxious to keep it in line. This is just my inference, however.
• suggest "raised a revolt in Daylam in 792"
  • Done

That's all I could find. A few spots where knowledge is assumed and needs more information, but mostly just grammar and minor things. Nice work, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:22, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: thanks for the thorough review, I've addressed the issues pointed out. Anything else? Constantine ✍ 14:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The only thing I think this is missing is an introductory para in the Background summarising the previous history of the Islamic caliphate. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

G'day Constantine, just checking you've seen this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:35, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi Peacemaker67, I was about to start working on this again. Thanks for the notification nonetheless :) Constantine ✍ 17:11, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: I've rewritten the Background section, not adding information as much as ordering it around to make it more easy to access (at least I hope so). Please have a look. Constantine ✍ 15:00, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Big improvement, supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:49, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild

I have done a little copy editing, which you will wish to check.

• Infobox: "al-Husayn ibn Ali". Upper case A I think.
  • Done
• "Subsequently, the Abbasids tried to secure Alid support, or at least acquiescence, through salaries and honours at court, but some, chiefly the Zaydi and Hasanid branches of the Alids, continued to reject them as usurpers, with some Alids going into hiding and once again trying to rouse the discontented against the new regime." A little long. (And convoluted.)
  • Rewritten
• "Husayn thus grew up "in an atmosphere of extreme piety and of secret hatred for the Abbasids" " You need to attribute the author in line.
  • Done
• "later Shi'a writers claim that this was due to the hostility". Possibly "this" → 'it'?
  • {{color|darkblue|Rewritten
• "Khalid charged to kill Husayn". I don't much like this; any chance of a reword? (Eg 'Khalid charged forward and attempted to kill Husayn' or something.)
  • Rewritten
• "On the next morning" → 'Next morning'.
  • Done
• "on the next day" → 'the next day'.
  • Done
• "to the far reaches of the Islamic world, with far-reaching repercussions". Optional: rephrase to avoid "far" twice in eight words.
  • Rewritten

Gog the Mild (talk) 14:15, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Gog the Mild, I've done the recommended changes. Please have a look and let me know if there is anything else. Constantine ✍ 15:00, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.