Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/West precedent

This is an essay on notability. It contains the advice and/or opinions of one or more WikiProjects on how notability may be interpreted within their area of interest.

This information is not a formal Wikipedia policy or guideline, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community.

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WP:CFBWEST

This page in a nutshell: This is an essay outlining reasons to overturn the "West Precedent" argument in articles for deletion discussions. It concludes with arguments to overturn any and all deletion of articles that may have been influenced by the West Precedent.

This essay contains the WikiProject College football project response to the "West Precedence" argument (or sometimes called the West Incident) and outlines reasons to overturn any and all articles deleted based on the deletion of the article Walter J. West. It includes a historical view of deletion discussions, results, and shows the new trend of overturning articles deleted by the so-called "West Precedence" argument.

General importance

Although this topic is in place in the college football project, it can have impact outside of this project. As Chick Bowen put it:

"As a longtime DRV closer, I've observed, and have indicated in my closing statements a number of times, that AfD doesn't—and can't—work by precedent. Consensus about a particular category of articles can certainly develop over time—so any debate can have a bearing on others as part of a larger discussion—but (unlike in a court of law) the order of nominations shouldn't matter; previous debates indicate but never define consensus, and it is inevitable that as consensus emerges over time AfDs on fairly similar articles will be decided differently..."

Scoreboard

nominated for deletion	deleted	restored	% restored
79	62	62	100%

Duplicate deletions (such as the A.C. Ransom articles) are counted as one article. Merged articles that were deleted and then merged to another existing article on the same coach are counted as restored. Articles restored and then re-deleted (such as Joe Banks) are removed from "restored" category" regardless of reason. Articles restored as redirect and information included into lists are also included.

Timeline

An articles for deletion discussion took place concerning the article Walter J. West (herinafter referred to as West) and the end result was that the article was deleted. The deletion of this article led to a string of nominations of similar articles referencing the deletion West, some going so far as to refer to what was called the West Precedent. A total of at least 24 discussions took place directly from the West precedent with several more indirectly from the same group of nominations. These discussions resulted in the deletion of at least 62 articles.

The following AFD discussions referenced by link the West discussion:

AFD Discussion	Articles affected	Opened	Closed	Result
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Walter J. West	Walter J. West	14:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)	13:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC)	Deleted then subsequently Restored by deleting admin on 16:02, October 17, 2008
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Walter J. West (2nd nomination)	Walter J. West	18:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)	23:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)	Speedy close: "The first AfD nomination is still open"
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A.C. Ransom	A.C. Ransom	16:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC)	02:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC)	Delete (same person as Alured Ransom below)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alured Ransom	Alured Ransom	11:58, 17 September 2008 (UTC)	01:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)	Delete (same person as A.C. Ransom above), then subsequently Restored by the deleting admin on 19:12, October 20, 2008
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/S. W. Harrington	S. W. Harrington	12:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)	01:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)	Kept
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. William Williams	J. William Williams	12:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)	16:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)	Delete uses phrase "West Precedent" then subsequently Restored after article improvements and a deletion review.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Max Holm	Max Holm, Joe Banks, Ross Fiscus, Graydon Long, Samuel Boyle, Forrest Craver, Victor Payne	12:39, 17 September 2008 (UTC)	18:28, 22 September 2008 (UTC)	Delete all except Victor Payne. Uses phrase "West Precedent." Samuel Boyle was subsequently merged (and original article re-directed) to pre-existing article Sam Boyle. Forrest Craver was subsequently restored after checking with deleting admin and having no opposition. Ross Fiscus was subsequently restored by deleting admin Joe Banks was subsequently restored with permission from the deleting admin, then userfied again after another DRV. Max Holm 'restored when new information and resources became available, specifically that he is one of the few college coaches at any level to be head coach of both basketball and football programs during the same calendar year (in the "modern era") and for his credit for significant contributions to the schools nationally-ranked defensive team.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William McCracken	William McCracken, J.B. Craig, Smith Alford, Archibald Leech (football coach), Arthur McKean, C.B. Metheny, P.H. Bridenbaugh, Jack Sack, Mack Flenniken, Jimmy Robertson (American football), Dwight V. Beede, Edgar P. Weltner, Byron E. Morgan, Donald Lederick, Dan Frasier	18:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)	14:44, 22 September 2008 (UTC)	Delete all references "West Precedent" in discussion format Jack Sack boldly restored when professional career found Mack Flenniken boldly restored when professional career found Dwight V. Beede Merged to existing article Dwight "Dike" Beede Jimmy Robertson (American football), boldly restored when professional career found William McCracken restored after deletion review P.H. Bridenbaugh boldly restored to Phillip Henry Bridenbaugh when prominent noteable high school coaching career found (fourth best in nation). Notified deleting admin. Edgar P. Weltner boldly restored when professional coaching career found in basketball Byron E. Morgan boldly restored when additional sources, significant contributions, 20+ years of collegiate coaching and over 100 victories were verified. J.B. Craig merged into existing article J. B. Craig Arthur McKean boldly restored when additional sources and state legislature history was documented. Remaining articles redirected and restored to List of Geneva Golden Tornadoes head football coaches
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wally Bullington	Wally Bullington	18:48, 17 September 2008 (UTC)	10:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)	Delete Claims "West Precedent" then article subsequently was Restored after a deletion review discussion.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ward A. Wescott	Ward A. Wescott, J.G. Britton, John D. Schwender, Mark D. Nave, Harrison McJohnston, William Davies (football coach), John E. Fries, Roy E. Haberman, C.C. Boone, Madison Bell (football coach), P. Norris Armstrong, Vincent Batha, Elmer A. Lampe, John W. Breen, F.J. (Mickey) McCormick, Steve Miller (football coach), Robert Larsen, Mark W. Williams	00:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)	00:44, 29 September 2008 (UTC)	Delete all except Elmer A. Lampe Boldly restored John W. Breen when significant professional football contributions found Boldly restored P. Norris Armstrong (as Phillip Norris Armstrong) when professional career was found Madison Bell (football coach) was merged into existing article Matty Bell Boldly restored Harrison McJohnston when significant business/academic background uncovered Restored F.J. (Mickey) McCormick (as Francis J. McCormick) after additional information, sources, and conferring with the deleting admin Boldly restored John D. Schwender when unique information and sources were found showing discontinuation of program for one year by faculty due to excessively rough and dangerous practice sessions. Conferred with the deleting admin. Boldly restored Mark D. Nave in concurrence with Schwender article on suspension of football for one year. Conferred with deleting admin. Boldly restored Robert Larsen when additional notability, sources, and career at University of Chicago was found. Boldly restored Mark W. Williams when widespread coverage of his move from business to collegiate coaching was verified. Boldly restored Steve Miller (football coach) when found he was named Division III coach of the year, had over 100 wins, and a rich history as well as widespread coverage. Notified deleting admin. Boldy restored John E. Fries to John Edmund Fries when notability established and reliable sources came online. Remaining coaches incorporated into List of Carroll Pioneers head football coaches.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. J. Thiel	Harry Huston , Jay Mack Love, Frank Armin, Fred Clapp, Willis Bates , Don Copper, Dick Nolan (football coach), Harry Brock, Fred Dittman, Harold Hunt (football coach), Bill Carroll (football coach), Robert Hower, Bob Dvorak, Ray Morrison (football coach), Wes Buller, Jim Paramore, Phil Hower, Jake Cabell, Chris Douglas (football coach)	15:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)	08:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)	Delete all except Harry Huston and Willis Bates. "West Precedent" is given as one of the reasons for the deletion by the closing admin. Bill Carroll (football coach) restored after deletion review Harold Hunt (football coach) restored after deletion review Dick Nolan (football coach) boldly restored (as Richard C. Nolan) after significant research and discoveries found him to be an early adoptor of a 12-game collegiate schedule and his use of football as physical conditioning for the US Navy in WWII. Notified deleting admin of change. Jay Mack Love boldly restored when significant play in 1904 and 1905 season at Michigan discovered and additional sources found. Jake Cabell boldy restored when additional sources and significant play time at Nebraska was uncovered, including being listed in four other existing articles in Wikipedia. Fred Clapp boldy restored when additional nationwide sources found, refereneces to early racial integration in college sports, and key involvmeent in college mascot discovered. Remaining articles incorporated to List of Southwestern College Moundbuilders head football coaches
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Larry Dorsey	Larry Dorsey	18:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC)	04:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)	Nomination Withdrawn Nomination refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Clifton Gilliard	Clifton Gilliard	18:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)	00:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC)	Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Greg Johnson (American football)	Greg Johnson (American football)	18:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)	00:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC)	Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hensley Sapenter	Hensley Sapenter	18:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)	00:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)	Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ronald Beard	Ronald Beard	18:30, 19 September 2008 (UTC)	03:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)	Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Haney Catchings	Haney Catchings	18:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)	00:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)	Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conway Haymen	Conway Haymen	18:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)	00:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)	Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James McKinley (football coach)	James McKinley (football coach)	18:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)	00:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)	Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jake High	Jake High	19:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)	00:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)	Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kevin Haslam (football coach)	Kevin Haslam (football coach)	15:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)	08:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)	Delete nominator references West and several other articles deleted because of the West Precedent Restored to Kevin Haslam by User:Jrcla2.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dan Hanson	Dan Hanson	15:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)	08:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)	Delete nominator references West and several other articles deleted because of the West Precedent
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Gravier	Mike Gravier	15:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)	08:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)	Delete nominator references West and several other articles deleted because of the West Precedent and then boldy restored to Mike Gravier after significant coverage and unique information uncovered.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Don Lee (college football)	Don Lee (college football), Scott Highsmith, Norman Joseph	13:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC)	16:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)	No Consensus Nominator referenced West and several other articles deleted because of the West Precedent. When it was pointed out that Walter J. West was restored, nominator removed the reference from the nomination.

Problems affiliated with West as precedent

Large number of AfD nominations/discussions citing West

A large number of AfD nominations and/or discussions took place in a short period of time that cited West either as precedent or at least as a reference for a reason to delete. There is evidence that using this one discussion had clouded the judgement of editors during their discussions and even of administrators who based deletion of articles at least in part on West. For example:

At least 62 articles were deleted citing West as a reference for previous deletion discussions
At least 40 artciles were deleted citing West as precedence for reason to delete
At least 17 articles were deleted citing West as one of the reasons for the deletion by the deleting administrator

That adds up to a total of 119 direct references in AFD discussions using the West incident as a source.

Precedence to Keep was ignored

At the time of the West discussions, the recent AfD trend was toward keeping similar articles. A good amount of similar articles had gone through AfD discussions and were closed as keep or no consensus by the closing admin. These discussions were largely ignored by the editors at the time, and any attempt to bring them up resulted in a simple "consensus can change" statement.

The following articles and AfD discussions should have been considered but were not:

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oscar Dahlene Keep
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fay G. Moulton Nomination Withdrawn
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Gottsch Keep
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James A. Stevens Keep
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sam B. Taylor Keep
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hoover J. Wright Keep
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prairie View coaches No Consensus

Increased number of AfD nominations after West was initially deleted

After West article was deleted, a large number of bulk nominations began using West as the primary driver. Some had been previously nominated for deletion but were not deleted. This was discussed at AfD Talk Page and at Kittybrewster's Talk Page.

Domino Effect

After West was deleted, a domino effect took place. After nominators began using West as a precedent, additional deletions based on West were also referenced in AfD discussions as a form of "consensus" or "precedent":

Volume of AfD discussions

Initial requests for more time to work on the articles or to reduce the number of nominations were met with harsh responses from several editors. Eventual intervention based on the volume of AfDs led to the downturn of the nominations for deletion led to the nominations being reduced to a more manageable number at any given time. Once this happened, articles questioned began to be improved through collaboration with additional sources cited and many more were kept.

Immediate impact of restoration of West

Restoration of the West article has contributed to a marked reduction in the number of deletions which can be observed in the table above. It seems that no head coach article has been nominated for deletion for over two weeks (as of 30 Oct 2008). In addition, articles once deleted under the West precedent have been improved in user workspace and are beginning to be restored by the deleting administrator.

Result of non-West related discussions

Similar articles that do not reference West have a much lower result in deletions.

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/B. Russell Murphy No Consensus
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/P. W. Griffith Keep
Lance Hinson (football coach) Prod Removed
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseph Pipal Keep
Simon F. Pauxtis Initially deleted via prod then Restored
Scott Frear (football coach) Prod Removed
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fay G. Moulton (2nd nomination) Keep

Additional article improvements

Besides West other articles have been improved during this time as a result of research completed on the West articles. Those articles that were improved and subsequently kept include:

Other improvements are ongoing in user workspace and can be found at User:Paulmcdonald/deletedcoach.

Recommendation

Restore any article that was deleted based on influence from the West discussion because it is evident that deletion discussions were highly influenced by the original root discussion. These articles include (but may not limited to) the 62 articles listed in the table above.

Additional benefits of restoration

Promotes collaboration

Articles that begin as a stub can, through collaboration, be dramatically improved. As a small sample, here is a list of many articles that began much like those that were deleted and were enhanced through efforts of collaboration and grew to robust articles: Harold Elliott, Bob Spoo, Oscar Dahlene, Mike Gardner (football coach), Ralph Graham, Homer Woodson Hargiss, George Allen (Cumberland), Art Kahler, Jerry Kill, Eddie Kriwiel, Craig Schurig (football coach), Ed Sweeney (football coach), Samuel Colgate, Jr., Gwinn Henry, Wayne J. McConnell, Bill Schnebel, Arthur Schabinger, Chris Creighton, Glenn Thistlethwaite, Dave Clawson, Douglas Legate Howard, Josh Hartwell, Chick Meehan, Bob Seaman, Ralph Graham, and Bill Stewart (football coach). The Wikipedia College football project has put extensive effort toward this goal.

Of course, articles being prepared in a user space can be edited by anyone--but by placing the articles in the "open" we can add proper categories and tags (not only for the college football project, but other projects such as projects for History, Biography, United States or sub-state projects, and any other project that may apply).

Potentially enhances existing articles

Some articles already existed, but have become more robust due to the college football project efforts. Some of these articles include:

Andrew Frank Schoeppel, head coach at Fort Hays State University and later governor of Kansas
Douglas Legate Howard, United States Navy officer and coach at Annapolis
Ralph McKinzie, college football coach of Ronald Reagan
Dennis Franchione started at Southwestern College
Percy W. Griffiths coached at Dickinson College then entered the United States Congress

Preemptive responses

The following pre-emptive arguments are made to assist with consideration of this proposal.

The arguments behind West still stand

It is true that many of the arguments made during West were done in good faith. However, the influence of those arguments on other articles has been weighted toward delete. This is most evident when viewing the trend of deletions and how, once West was restored (and even when word of West being reconsidered) resulted in fewer successful deletions of articles. Editors supporting deletion based on West would tend to just say "because of West" instead of articulating the argument specifically for the article in question.

Further, the influence of West as precedent may have influenced editors who would have joined discussions but chose not to when they read that a precedent already existed.

Finally, the influence of West as precedent definitely influenced at least one closing admin, as shown in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. J. Thiel, a discussion that resulted in the deletion of 17 articles.

If the arguments behind West truly do still stand, then they could withstand unprejudiced exposure in a new forum.

There were other reasons for deletion of the articles

Yes, there were other reasons both for and against deletion outside of West. However, there was a marked trend toward deletion after West was deleted that was not present before. Full, proper consideration must be given without improper influence.

Restorations not linked to original topic

The main argument being made here is that all of the articles restored were restored because they found a pro football career or something notable outside of the original scope of the article, which was college football coaching.

This, however, is a false statement. Certainly some of the articles were restored when a professional career was found, and others were restored when other outside notability surfaced. However, others such as J. William Williams, Forrest Craver, William McCracken, and Wally Bullington were restored because of thier contribution to college football--it was merely the addition of more sources and details to the page on the same topic.

The timeline table above has a brief review of why and how each article was restored, along with pertinent links.

v t e Essays from Wikipedia:WikiProject College football
Article creation	Images Notability Reliable sources Style guide Write a football game summary
History	Please refrain from spamming deletions West Incident
Broader essays	WP:ATHLETE is not exclusionary
Work pages	College Football HOF