Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2006 September 24

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Proving the Wicked Witch of the West is good and Dorothy & co are evil...

OK I need some help here!!I have a friend who is lovely but a few jelly babies short of a pound.She is in rather a bad state convinced she is Elphaba the Wicked Witch of the West-any ideas as to how to deal with her would be MOST welcome...

No its not a BJAODN.It's 1.30am and I'm just trying to keep her from having hysterics until the morning when we can take her to a professional.

She also believes that she is suffering unjustly and that Dorothy and her companions are wicked.I'm trying to agree with her,but it's very hard when I don't know what she's on about.

I just know Dorothy finds the Yellow Brick Road,collects Lion,Tin Man and Scarecrow and goes off down the Yellow Brick Road to Oz-she's got the whole background as to how they got there and everything.

Is there anything in the book that would help me agree with her by showing Elphaba being mistreated or suffering or Dorothy and her companions doing something evil,either out of spite or because they were made to?

Thankyou.It's gonna be a longggg night..... :( Lemon martini 00:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I think psychiatric advice goes under the same criterion as medical advice; Ask a professional! Otherwise, I'd guess you should just try to keep her calm, don't start arguments. 惑乱 分からん 00:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I think what you're looking for is Wicked (novel), a book written from the point of view that Elphaba (the "Wicked Witch") was good, but misunderstood, and Glinda/Galinda (the "Good Witch") was just a publicity whore that did whatever she could to be looked at in a better light. Basically, Elphaba just suffered from bad PR (she got on the Wizard's bad side by not going along with his immoral schemes, and so he decreed her "evil"). The books not bad, the musical is far better. --Maelwys 00:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I should pretend you are taking her to OZ (etc). But you will really be going to the ER or casualty dept of your local hospital.--Light current 00:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Well...Dorothy did unintentionally kill her sister, the Wicked Witch of the East, after all, and then stole property (the ruby slippers) that presumably she was heir to. Then a bystander (Glinda) threatened her and Dorothy left the scene of an accident. That's manslaughter, theft, intimidation and a few other crimes. Clarityfiend 01:04, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.Sadly I have had to deal with friends over the years who are suicidal,depressed or drunk. I work with a support group with other folks who have mental illness or who have it in their family so I'm used to folks not entirely with it and away in their own little world,but I haven't had yet to deal with someone who is convinced they are a fictional character and want me to do something about it.Having experience of these panic attack or delusion type things,I know that she's genuinely convinced she's someone else. Given the mood she's in,I think she might be safest at home rather than try and take her anywhere tonight with strange surroundings and strange people. And then there's the fun of trying to explain WHY we need an ambulance or a taxi,that no she's not just drunk,she actually does believe she's being attacked by an evil wizard... Lemon martini 01:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Wicked isn't even part of Oz canon. bibliomaniac15 23:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

New country

How do I make a new country? --人 01:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

There are separist groups in the world. Perhaps you can try and join one of those. Jamesino 01:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Two choices- How to Start Your Own Country or Invasion Lemon martini 01:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Or you could split off from an existing country. That's how Pakistan (and then Bangladesh), Israel and the remainders of Yugoslavia started. DirkvdM 06:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

And The Netherlands (and Belgium!) – how come you did not think of that? Duke of Alba: Sire, the Dutch are revolting! — Philip: You can say that again! --Lambiam^Talk 09:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Belgium is particularly interesting because it might split too : in Flanders and Wallonia. New-Flemish Alliance is an (as far as I know) peaceful separatist political movement.Evilbu 10:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I can just see it happening. September 2066: Flupke De Smet, the charismatic leader of Koekelberg First!, announces that his party will strive for the peaceful secession of Koekelberg from the Democratic Federated Republic of Koekelberg and Sint-Jans-Molenbeek. --Lambiam^Talk 11:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry Lambiam, was that a reaction to my reply? Because I don't get your point.Evilbu 13:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

It's extrapolation of the splitting trend. Spain splits off Netherlands splits off Belgium splits off Flanders splits off Brabant splits off Brussels splits off ... splits off Koekelberg. --Lambiam^Talk 16:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

That's what I thought. I still don't know whether or not you are Belgian and what language is your native... but I disagree with that extrapolation argument. Flemish separatists are often depicted as madmen who can't get enough of separation, but I find it hard to believe that those saying those things really have no clue at all why there is a serious reason to consider Flanders as one unit and Wallonia as another....Evilbu 18:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, come on, that was a wonderful marriage between a joke and a serious comment (just the way I like them). A similar case might be made for the place where I grew up, Maastricht. Limburg, of which it is the capital, is jokingly regarded by the rest of the Netherlands as a bit of foreign land inside the Netherlands and the locals see themselves as different too. Actually, anyone from North of Sittard is a 'Hollander' (an insult) and folk from Kerkrade are obviously the real foreigners (jut listen to their lingo). The resst of South Limburg may then join Maastricht in its separatist movement - a city state rather like Luxemburg.

Actually, I'd be in favour of such separations (thus abolishing nations), as long as those smaller parts coooperate in the spirit of the EU. DirkvdM 06:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

An interesting side effect of the EU is that it no longer matters much if member nations break up, so long as all the pieces stay in the EU, as there's less and less left up to individual governments to decide. The recent independence of the Scottish Parliament is an example. I don't think the world much noticed this historic change. StuRat 06:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

(About the Scottish parliament, I did hear about the changes but it's true that I need to learn some more about it) I'm not afraid of a little joke myself... but seriously : some people act like they don't see the difference between a Flanders-Wallonia split, and a (West-Flanders)-(East-Flanders) split. The dialects may be different, but our newspapers and books and the televisions shows we watch are exactly the same. I know a couple of West-Flemish who went to high school in East-Flanders and many of them go to the university in East-Flanders. Maybe you know one, but I don't know any Flemish student who prefers a university in Wallonia....Evilbu 16:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want to practice at it first, try participating in a geofiction game. (The one I'm in has been running non-stop for 10 years!) — Michael J 17:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Therewas a cartoon showing a map with the new European countries "Czech","O","Slov","A","Ki" and another "A." The two "A's" will probably argue about which is really "A" like people argue about where Macedonia is.Edison 23:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Xbox 360 vs PS3

I know there are sites that directly compares these two but most are too complicated. Can someone breakdown the basic (CPU, GPU, RAM, etc...) of each and compare it with the other? For example, is the PS3's CPU much fast and more powerful than Xbox 360's? Jamesino 01:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Try a Comparison of seventh-generation game consoles. Rockpocket 05:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

That link doesn't really explain it. From a hardware standpoint, the PS3's CPU is much faster than the XBOX 360's, though in the chart it seems only a few hundred million hertz faster. The Cell chip has 8 (?) cores that each perform different functions. Each of these cores is clocked faster than the single-core XBOX 360's CPU. But it's easy just to make that comparison and say that the PS3 will look better... it just depends on how well the game utilizes the system's resources. --froth^{T C} 17:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Only 7 of those cores are at work. The 8th is an extra. Яussiaп F 23:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Think about. It might be better to look at the actual games, features, graphics rather than specifications to get a real world view of performance. --Proficient 05:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Family wikis

Is there a site that handles a lot of wikis for families? I'd imagine someone has already thought of doing something like this but I can't find a community sort of thing. Basically, I'm thinking of putting together a wiki for my family members to create pages for themselves and then they could update it. Kind of a way to keep in touch sort of. Although I'd like to limit the editing to actual family members... Not the public. Or should I just think up a domain name and go at it? Dismas|^(talk) 04:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought of that too. Mediawiki is not really designed for this, but I like the format so much that I still prefer it. One thing I thought of was a 'front' in the form of a site on whichever subject, running on Mediawiki, that people can help build or something, and have one page that is just for the family. I believe there are methods to restrict the editing of certain pages to certain people. But if discusssions get to be a bit personal you'd also not want others to view them. One solution to keep it obscure is not to link to the page from anywhere and give it a real obscure name so poeple wont accidentally type that in the search box. But then there is still special pages > all articles, where it will show up (and stand out if it has a weird name). Is there a way to make a page invisible to normal users? DirkvdM 06:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Mediawiki actually has pretty good access controls - it's easy to restrict viewing and/or editing of specific pages to certain users, with multiple user groups (I think they would still show up under Special: All Pages, but unauthorised people won't be able to view them and you can always block everything except the login page to non-logged-in users). I set up a wiki for a research group at Tsinghua University which had some pages viewable by anyone but only editable by logged-in users, and others which were only visible to logged-in users (if you do this, you should also set it up so that only administrators can add new users).

Having said that, I don't think there's anywhere that gives free hosted wikis for something like that. You would probably have to set it up yourself, which is fortunately pretty well documented. If you're buying webspace to host the wiki, make sure that it has PHP and MySQL, and you might not be able to have things like automatic image resizing if the server doesn't have the right software installed. Also, MediaWiki isn't the only wiki software available, and maybe it's a bit heavier than what you need - see Comparison of wiki software. Ironfrost 14:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Cool! Thanks!! Dismas|^(talk) 18:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Mediawiki does have these access controls. There's an extension (which we have installed at work), but it's not that well integrated, and it wasn't completely straightforward when we upgraded to a new version of Mediawiki. And to create new restricted namespaces we have to edit the config file, rather than working through the wiki interface. ColinFine 18:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

According to their website, the JotSpot Family Site offers controlled logins, plus calendar, family tree, map, and wiki functionality. Probly not as flexible as MediaWiki, but if you just want plug-and-play it might suit you. — Catherine\^talk 03:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

half life 2 extra maps, campaigns, episodes

You see, I enjoy a good shoot-em-up as cathartic relaxation. Looking for some fast paced, intense episodes from 3rd parties have made for half-life (preferable free). I feel overwhelmed by the sheer amount of info about HL2 on the web, looking for a response from someone knowledgable on the topic. thanks. Jasbutal 06:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

See List of Half-Life 2 mods. There are plenty of free mods, including a lot of entertaining single-player ones which seem to fit what you're asking for. MINERVA is supposed to be a particularily excellent one, though for whatever reason I havn't tried it myself (downloaded, havn't played it yet). -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 06:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I highly recommend SMOD

Lawn Mower Starters

The pulling cord on my gas powered lawn mower recently got stuck and won't budge, it can move a little but not much. Is there a remedy to make it come out all the way. Manual gives no info on the subject.--Biggie 07:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing the motor has seized up, in which case it needs a major repair or replacement. StuRat 08:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Might check to make sure no object (a rock or some other debris) isn't lodged in the mower blade. 1001001 16:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info.--Biggie 21:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and if you are removing a rock of something else from the blade, don't use your fingers. The blade may spin after the debris is removed. And trust me, your fingers look better on your hand. --AstoVidatu 02:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It may just be the starter coil, which is a fairly common problem. Unscrew the part where the pull-cord winds into, and you will probably find that the coil has come loose or dislodged. It looks like a long piece of springy, curved metal. You can try and wind it back in yourself, but it is a bit tricky. Otherwise take it (just the bit you've unscrewed) to a mower repair shop; it shouldn't cost you more than $10-15 for them to fix it for you. BenC7 03:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, what's the purpose of a starter coil? —Bromskloss 14:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Time on ships.

On a ship heading across the ocean does the ship alter the time as it transits the time zones or does it keep its departure point time and with a crunch changes to arrival port time ?

Its not mentioned in cruise ships nor is it covered in naval ships.

Thanks

Paul

Hope this answers your question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone#Nautical_time_zones Zoobeerhall 08:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

• When I've been on a cruise ship, the clock would change overnight when we would be stopping the next day in a port on a different time zone. These were always 1-hour steps, though, and Paul seems to be thinking of trips where the time difference would be several hours, like an Atlantic crossing. In those cases I would be extremely surprised if they did anything other than move the clock in 1-hour steps overnight from time to time as the trip progressed, but I don't actually know. Well, if the total time difference was not a multiple of an hour, of course there would be one step of 30 or 90 minutes, but you know what I mean. (Ironically, as well as my cruise-ship travel I have in fact crossed the Atlantic on a passenger ship -- but I have no idea what the clock changes were, because I was a baby then, and I don't remember it at all.) --Anonymous, 02:52 UTC, September 30, 2006.

A question on time

There are instances of people forwarding their wrist watches/clocks by a few minutes in order to ensure that they are not late for an appointmentetc. Is there really a reason for doing it, considering the fact that he/she knows that it is faster by that many minutes? Please explain the logic behind it sumal 13:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, humans are not logical (captain). But I think the reasoning is that people only glance at their watches or clocks and take in the time subconsciously, without thinking whether to add or subtract a few minutes to get the true time. I personally would find it confusing. Some years ago I finally learned that everything takes at least twice as long as you think it will. In the rare cases that it is quicker, I get myself a few minutes to relax.--Shantavira 14:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

They might forget about it and then -thinking they're late- rush in and find to their relief that they're on time --froth^{T C} 14:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, consider that unaware bystanders may not be aware of this and therefore will alter their behavior... One salesperson that I know always sets his car clock and wall clocks 5 minutes fast but leaves his wristwatch at the 'correct' time. 1001001 16:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I used to do this (before I stopped wearing a wristwatch). I was chronically late, so I did it to force myself to focus on the time. Instead of just glancing at my watch, I had to calculate the correct time. It worked for me. Clarityfiend 17:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

My watch is off a minute and thirty seconds right now and progressively gets worse as the months have been going on. I intend to keep it that way, because it's just pretty annoying to have to reset it so often. --Proficient 05:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The clock at Edinburgh Waverley railway station is famously always two minutes fast to help passengers catch their train. Though I note this information isn't contained in the Wikipedia article! --Auximines 08:40, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Secrets of the Medical Profession!

A talking t-rex in a classy webcomic that shall rename nameless once told me that, and I quote, When doctors and nurses are 'taking your pulse', they're not actually doing that! They're actually discreetly observing your breathing. They do it on the sly because if you're aware of it, it changes!. Was he lying to me?

Yes, it was a lie. A Pulse rate is different from your respiratory rate.-- thunderboltz^(Deepu) 15:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think he (t-rex) meant they were watching your chest and breathing patterns, not observing your breathing by your wrist.

...But see pulsus paradoxus. --Shantavira 16:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The answer may be all of the above. However, in the US, if a nurse (or more likely an aide) is taking your pulse you can believe that that is all she is doing, and will simply write down "20" in the space for "respiratory rate". On the other hand, if a doctor is doing it, it is because he/she is doublechecking an unusual pulse recorded by the nurse or your heart rate sounded unusually fast or slow and he/she wants to record an exact number. alteripse 00:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I find having a cuff tightened on my arm, such that it cuts off all circulation to that arm, to increase my BP substantially. StuRat 06:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone recognise this piece of classical music?

Link to 500kb MP3 sample. I'm trying to find what this piece of classical music is called. Thanks!

The style doesn't sound classical to me. I think this is modern. (I don't think it's even a real orchestra, it sounds like samples.) Is it from a videogame? What's with all the splashing noises and stuff? I'm thinking that the credits for the game it is from would say who wrote it. - Rainwarrior 15:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

It's from a Futurama, I figured it was classical, I don't really know much about classical music... Exact episode is Parasites Lost.--ods15 15:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it was probably written by Christopher Tyng, based on the IMDB entry for Futurama. - Rainwarrior 16:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Might want to try the Humanities Desk. Lots of musically-inclined types there. 1001001 17:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Dance classes

Why do dance classes for children, at least from what I've seen pictures of such classes in the USA, seem to often include a number (four to eight, generally) girls and one boy? I don't know if the pictures represent the whole of the dance classes but I've seen plenty of rehearsal or show pictures with the girls and the boy dressed up in fancy costumes, and it's always just one boy. Shouldn't it either be all-girl (or all-boy, for that matter), or roughly equal? JIP | Talk 16:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I would guess the poor kid is there under duress. Dance simply isn't that popular among small boys.--Shantavira 16:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing, but I was still wondering why it goes to such extremes. I've seen pictures of all-girl classes, and classes with one boy, but never with more than one boy. You'd think, with a large enough class (over ten or fifteen children), it'd occasionally go as far as two boys. JIP | Talk 16:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

If you look at enough classes you will probably find one that will have more than one boy. However, dance classes cost money, and are not popular among male children. As a result, the percentage of dance classes with more than one boy will be extremely low. Get the attendance records for enough dance classes and I assure you you will find a class with more than one boy in it. --AstoVidatu 16:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Some times, the teachers at the dance classes will enroll their own children, boys and girls alike. However, I did go to school with a rather accomplished male tap dancer that claimed it was a GREAT way to meet girls. 1001001 17:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

They need a male for duets and could only coerce/shanghai/bribe one boy? Clarityfiend 17:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Even if there were a few boys in a large class, they would probably get separated and placed by themselves in groups whenever the groups whenever they divided up. It may be logical to have all-boys and all-girls settings, but I don't think most medium-sized studios have the resources to specialize for the boys, so they just put them with girls and keep them from becoming a big presence.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  06:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I've myself been in some sports or exercise classes where I'm the only man. Only problem is, I'm always also the youngest, the only single one, or both. JIP | Talk 14:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Certainly it may be portrayed that way in media and such, but in real life it is different. --Proficient 05:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Most of the pictures I've seen are not from official media, but from free image hosting sites where parents proudly display photographs of their children. JIP | Talk 05:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Titles.

Is a military doctor who attains the rank of Major referred to as Major Green or Dr. Green? Does it differ for civilians, fellow soldiers and fellow doctors? What about military doctors who've been knighted? Is it possible they could be Sir Major Dr. Greene, Ph.D ASC? (Forgive my somewhat juvenile question.) Pesapluvo 16:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

First of all, in most cases there is no such thing as a stupid (or juvenile) question, only a stupid (or juvenile) answer. Anyway, I would guess that in the first case, it would depend who was talking to him. If it was a civilian, or someone (civilian or soldier) seeking medical attention, they would probably refer to him as Dr. Green. On the other hand, if it was a fellow officer, he would probably be referred to as Major Green. Logically speaking, you are probably only going to use one formal title when adressing someone. So you would probably choose either Sir, Major, or Dr. as his title; in the same way you would still refer to a priest who has a doctorate as Father. The thing you fail to mention is that Sir Major Dr. Greene could also be called Mr. Sir Major Dr. Greene. When someone has only one formal title, we use that one in place of Mr. automatically. As for which title you would use for Mr. Sir Major Dr. Greene, Ph. D ASC, I would recommend the one he was proudest of. I think that that way, you won't go wrong. --AstoVidatu 16:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I have seen some pretty stupid questions here, but that certainly wasn't one of them. In fact if I don't know the answer to a question, as with that one, I call it a good question (unless it's a wildly hypothetical one). However, I would say that in the military, when you're not sure, "Sir!" is usually the best bet.--Shantavira 18:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

My observation (it's nothing more than that) is that in British usage, at least, no more than one professional title (Doctor, Professor, Major) is ever used, but it can be followed by a title of honour (Sir, Lord). Thus Major Sir Peter Greene PhD would be usual, but not any of the other possibilities.

This suggestion would allow Dr Sir Peter Greene, which does sound a bit unlikely: I think there's a tendency to omit 'Dr' if there is any other title. This may have something to do with the fact that most medical doctors in the UK do not hold an MD degree, and 'doctor' is a courtesy title.

I'm pretty sure this pattern doesn't hold for continental europe, where professional titles can be concatenated. ColinFine 19:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Yup; Admiral Sir John Smith, etc, is the standard form. The only MD-and-knighthood I can think of offhand is Kenneth Calman (former CMO), who was always Sir Kenneth Calman and never Dr. Sir Kenneth Calman; [1] suggests that all his predecessors (except one) were knighted but didn't use the "Dr". Shimgray | talk | 00:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

We're talking about the difference between a rank and a title - both could be properly used, depending on the circumstances. In the case of Major, among military personnel you can't go wrong with Major. However, if you're going to sick call, refeering to the Major as Doctor won't raise any eyebrows. In the case of an officer who holds a doctorate degree (but not a medical doctor), he or she will almost always be refered to by rank, not doctor.

What can be even more confusing is the Navy rank of Captain (O-6) and the title Captain (commander of a ship). In some cases, an O-6 will also command a ship - but command can also be held by Commanders (O-5) and even Lieutenant Commanders (O-4). In this case, they are called Captain even though they have not attained that rank. User:Kevin Fraser

trustees

as a member of a social club I would like to know what the roles of trustees are and can they be removed at any special meeting, this matter has become an item on the agenda at a special meeting called on sept 29th. I look forward to any comment

See trustee. You should find the answer in your own consitution or articles or rules, as it depends how your organization is set up. Depending on which country you are in, the club can probably pretty much make its own rules but within the guidelines laid down by law (e.g. the Charities Act if you are a charity). As long as the meeting is quorate, and all the appropriate people have been invited and given sufficient notice, you should be able to do it.--Shantavira 18:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

QUESTION

How do I do a bibliograpghy on this site???

Of who's work do you wish to produce this bibliography? Or do you mean you want to use Wikipedia as a source? --Charlesknight 17:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing the latter. There is a link which says "Cite this article" on the left-hand menu of every page. Click it. --Fastfission 17:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

It has come under my knowledge that many teachers are not big fans of their students using Wikipedia as a main source of information because of Wikipedia's open-sourceness. Jamesino 23:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Simpsons being an 80s show

Does the Simpsons count as an 80s show?, Heegoop, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it that, since it only aired one episode in the 80s (Simpsons Roasting on an Open Fire), but if you include the Tracy Ullman shorts, which started in 1987, you might. -- TheGreatLlama ^{(speak to the Llama!)} 18:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

do Michael Jordan "count" as an 80's basketball player? Jasbutal 22:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

What should I do?

I made a criticism section in the animal rights article. It needs work. Do I use some template or what? --216.164.193.1 18:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

In general the answer is to look for a suitable template from Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup. However, I observer that your short paragraph has been reverted twice today. In these circumstances, I would suggest you start a discussion on the talk page about what you want to add. Incidentally it would have been helpful if you had wikified 'animal rights' in your question - I have now done that. ColinFine 19:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Any change to an article on animal rights may be reverted because of it's controversial nature. There are people who are willing to kill other people to protect animals, just as there are those who would kill people to protect the rights of the unborn. StuRat 06:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Or just as there are people that would kill other animals to protect people. Of the three, I think this is noblest of all. ;) However nowadays animals are not as a major threat as they were before— where I live. — X [Mac Davis] (SUPERDESK|Help me improve)15:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The Shins

On the the song 'Mine's Not A High Horse' by the Shins there is backing synth music, anyone know what song it's from originally?

Need help finding a date on a source

I have a newspaper reprint from the Press-Enterprise. The title is "Filmmaker Babb let promotion offset low budgets" by Dennis McDougal. I don't know the date, except that it was either in August or September, and likely in 1975 or 1976. Anyone have the tools to figure this one out? --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikitalk

how do you use wikitalk? and what is it?

I suggest you type 'WikiTalk' into the 'search' box at the left, or (even better in this case, because Wikipedia hasn't actually got an article on it) go to http://www.google.com and type 'WikiTalk'. ColinFine 22:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The terminology is a bit confusing. Every article has a 'talk page', accessed through the 'discussion' tab at the top. There, you can discuss any issues that might arise in the writing of the article. Why two different manes are used ('talk' and 'discussion') I don't know. It is confusing and I'd be in favour of changing the tab to 'talk'. Btw, I changed the title of this thread to better cover the subject. DirkvdM 06:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Car storage

If you're going to store a car for months, what steps should you take? What damage can result if these aren't taken? Clarityfiend 20:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand your question. Please explain it a little bit better. Himanyo 21:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to park my car in a covered garage for a while and not drive it. Do I need to do anything special? Clarityfiend 22:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

In GB you'd need to fill out a SORN declaration (statutory off-road notification) which would mean you wouldn't have to pay tax for the off-road period.  sʟυмɢυм • т • c  22:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Make sure you have extra gas, the gas in your car may evaporate --froth^{T C} 22:46, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

You may want to get a solar battery charger to keep the battery charged up. The ones from Volkswagon show up frequently on Ebay. Rmhermen 23:04, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Or remove the battery entirely. Dismas|^(talk) 00:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

• The battery may go dead. This isn't too bad, as long as the temp is above freezing, since you'll just need a jump start. If below freezing, though, the battery, once discharged, will freeze and split. If you can't get somebody to start and run it every once in a while to charge the battery, it would be better to remove the battery and store it someplace above freezing.

• It's not good to keep all the weight on the same part of the tires for too long. They tend to develop flat spots. This probably would take years to actually ruin the tires, though. If you needed to store it for that long you would do well to put it up on blocks.

• Insects (particularly wasps) and rodents can infest a car in storage. Then again, so can some homeless guy. :-) StuRat 00:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Clarityfiend 02:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

There are suggestions like run it dry to exhaust the fuel supply , then put some oil in each cylinder by removing the plug, and turn over the engine, to lubricate the cylinders, and remove the tires and out it up on blocks. A better bet is have someone start it up every month and drive it a couple of miles to keep all systems lubricated. Edison 04:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Ideally it'd be good to have a friend start it up and drive it around the block once every week or so. That'd prevent most of the potential problems. Durova 05:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Universe

If someone invented a way to travel faster than the universe was expanding, surely at some point you would have to arrive an 'edge' of some sort. What would this be like? Would you know you had arrived there? What would be beyond it?

Don't bother trying to imagine something that can't logically exist. If this 'edge of the universe' were something you could perceive, then looking at it would impart some sensation to your brain. However if it's imparting some sensation to your brain, then it's not nothing, so it must be something, so it is in fact part of the universe. Hence there can be no edge to the universe. QED. Chris 22:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Imagine two-dimensional beings that lived on the surface of the earth, and had no way of perceiving or visualising anything outside that surface. They might ask each other what you'd find if you travelled far enough: would there be an edge? From our perspective we can see the answer is no, but they would (probably) be able to understand that fact only intellectually. Most current theories of the universe are analogous to that, though of course in more dimensions: finite but unbounded. The 'travel faster than the universe is expanding' is a red herring: it's not clear that this is logically possible (I'm not talking about physical possibility). ColinFine 22:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Suppose the universe stops expanding. Then everything travels faster than the universe is expanding. Will we then fall off the edge? You seem to start from the assumption that that which is expanding is the edge of the universe. But it is actually the metric expansion of space itself. Space is expanding right now right where you are now – unless you're in Brooklyn. --Lambiam^Talk 00:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

B.T.W. This question is better posed at the Science reference desk. --Lambiam^Talk 00:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Nothing would be beyond it. The edge of the universe would be you. BTW, you'll be travelling below the speed of light, so if you're starting the journey from this solar system, it will still take you a little while to get there. Don't forget to factor in some restroom breaks. TheMadBaron 00:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Im sure this question has been asked very recently.--Light current 00:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

By me! --froth^{T C} 04:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like surfing. Cool! --Dweller 15:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Music Licensing

I've come across finding out that Moby's Play album was the only album to have all its songs licenced. Why do artists choose to license some songs, & not all of their songs? It makes a lot of money. Thanks.100110100 22:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

A big part of it comes from the fact that not every song is wanted by an advertiser or other commercial user; a licensing agreement needs both a buyer and a seller. Many songs aren't that good, or don't set a mood properly, or contain vulgar language, and so on. Also, artists may choose to limit their licensing to avoid overexposure; I remember listening to Play on an airplane ride; the images from the in-flight movie suddenly seemed like a car commercial. Finally, some songs may be worth more to an artist; for instance, Eric Clapton allowed Layla to be used in Vauxhall commercials, but I doubt he'd be equally likely to permit the use of Tears In Heaven, about the death of his son. Assuming a car company wanted to use an acoustic ballad about a dead child to sell SUVs in the first place. --ByeByeBaby 02:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Life expectancy of Sec.Lt. in Vietnam

In the movie "Rules of Engagement", starring Tommy Lee Jones and Samuel L Jackson, Tommy Jones claims that the average life expectancy of a U.S. Marines second Lieutenant in Vietnam was 16 minutes. Is this true? Jamesino 22:40, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Uh no.. --froth^{T C} 22:46, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I apologize, I misquoted the movie. Tommy Jones claimed that the average life expectancy of a US Marines Second Lieutenant hot dropped into any LZ (insertion point) was 16 minutes. Jamesino 23:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Also unbelievable. Nobody would go if that were the case. StuRat 00:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd imagine the military wouldn't reveal to them that information. Jamesino 01:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Such info would be impossible to keep hidden in any society with a free press. Even in a society where the government runs the media, people would eventually notice that their soldiers never return. StuRat 06:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC) This type of information did not go unnoticed and the United States public began strongly objecting to the war.

I don't know any facts about this, but one consideration is that this is an average. Suppose 20% get killed within a few seconds after jumping out of the plane, 40% get killed during the mission, say on average after 10 days (I haven't got a clue) and the remainder live 'happilly' ever after - another 10.000 days (30 years, to keep the calculation simple). That's 40x10.000 + 40x10 + 'negligible' / 100 = 4000 days. Not quite 16 minutes, though. Notice that the two decisive factors in the outcome are the percentage that survived the war and how long they lived (I must admit, the opposite of what I thought it would be). Maybe the figure is for those who died. Or maybe some daft military statistician reckoned there is no life after the army. Marine officers are not in the Army; they are Marines, huge difference.

That said, WWII pilots had a pretty low chance of surviving more than 10 flights or so. And still they went. One big difference was that many US soldiers in Vietnam were not quite as motivated. DirkvdM 06:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Even giving them the benefit of a doubt and taking it to mean median instead of average (pun intended), this still requires that over half die within 16 minutes. If we assume that the LZ (Landing Zone) is secured by then, we can limit the causality rate to 50%. I still can't imagine any mission would be taken on in Viet Nam knowing that it would have such a high fatality rate. After all, it wasn't like they were defending the lives of their families, so what would justify such a risk ? Serving time in a federal prison for refusing the order would surely be preferable by almost everyone. More likely, during any court martial, the press would find out that soldiers were being sent on suicide missions against their will and the resulting public uproar would get the commanding officers fired (or "taking voluntary retirement", as the Bush admin calls any general they fire for disagreeing with their idiotic military policies in Iraq). StuRat 09:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the quotation was misquoted. I believe the 16 minutes referred to began from the moment that the bullets entered the second lieutenants' heads.

I have no idea about the statistics, true or false, but I think the point might be that a second lieutenant -- or any other officer--is likely to be the first target of a camouflaged enemy who recognizes who the leaders are, not that every soldier who goes in there dies so quickly. — Catherine\^talk 03:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

• Is it some sort of comment on "fragging" as I believe Lt's were particularly prone to this?(hotclaws**== 15:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC))

The quotation was "a hot LZ" not just any LZ. The quote: "I'll make you a deal right now. If you can tell me the average life expectancy of a Marine second lieutenant dropped into a hot LZ in Vietnam in 1967, I'll tell you everything I remember about Ca Lu." Marine units didn't drop into secure LZ's, their primary role was to secure enemy held positions.

I don’t know where these statistics came from...probably just made up by someone in the movies. Speaking from experience (3 tours Vietnam 5th Special Forces MACVSOG cc) the life expectancy of a 2nd lieutenant in a hot LZ would have been very short. There are a couple of reasons for this. First, at the time I was there (1965 – 1969), the OCS (Officer Candidate School) was turning out officers, as quickly as possible. These men were sent into the field with little or no training and actually thought that because they were officers, everyone was supposed to obey them. In a firefight, or hot LZ, you needed to be able to depend upon the decisions of the officers. These guys didn’t have a clue. If they weren’t killed by the enemy, they were killed by “friendly fire”, mostly on purpose. Another popular pastime was “fragging”. Typically, when these guys got too annoying, someone waited until they went into the latrine and dropped a fragmentation grenade under where they were sitting, hence, “fragging”. If anyone ever bothered to check the statistics, I believe that of the 50,000 + American casualties of the Vietnam War, statistically 2nd Lieutenants would have been a high proportion of the KIA’s. In the Marine Corps it si a thoroughly investigated and proven fact that fragging was extremely isolated although it was a serious and wide spread problem in the Army especially within some of the lesser soecial forces units. For example ti "Statistically" didn't exist with the Green Berets.

LAW

CAN A FELONY BE EXPUNGED FROM YOUR YOUR CRIMINAL RECORD?

It would help if we knew what country's laws you were speaking of. Though, I would think that if the person expunging it is of sificient rank within the government, they can get most anything done. Dismas|^(talk) 23:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The simplest thing would then be just changing the law, possibly by individualized retroactivity... ;) 惑乱 分からん 12:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Probably, if the person has a Daddy with sufficient Old Money. Then he could even be elected PresidentEdison 04:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you hinting at something (or someone)? :) DirkvdM 07:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

United States presidents and governors can pardon (which isn't quite the same as expunge). Earn a lot of money, donate loads of it to political campaigns, make friends in high places, and beg for favors shortly before the dude (or dudette) leaves office. Durova 17:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

That's Rich!Edison 22:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. --Proficient 05:21, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe that in most law-abiding democracies the strict answer is no (excepting one of the solutions proposed above). It will always be on your record. BUT in many countries there is a length of time after which you don't have to talk about your crime, put it on resumes or declare it when asked. No way of telling more without knowing the country. DJ Clayworth 18:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Opera song (maybe)

OK, this has been driving me crazy for the last 2 hours. What is the name of the "intense" opera song that is used in some movies? It sounds like "la laaa la la, la laa la la, lu laa lu laa laa laa luuuh". If one of you guys even have the slightest idea what I'm talking about you're my personal hero. 66.82.9.88 23:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm usually terrible at interpreting laa lurhs but I'll hazard a guess at Carmina Burana (Orff). MeltBanana 23:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I find The Ride of the Valkyrie, from the opera Der Ring des Nibelungen to be rather intense. StuRat 00:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

But doesn't that go more like "la laa la laa, lu laah la la, lu la la lu laa luu luu laah"? The questioner asked for "la laaa la la, la laa la la, lu laa lu laa laa laa luuuh". --Lambiam^Talk 00:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Quite. Definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely Orff. TheMadBaron 00:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep. In particular it's the opening section "Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi", usually known as "O Fortuna". The Ride of the Valkyries goes: lu lah la-la laaah lah, lah la-la laaah lah, lah la-la laaah lah, lah la-la laaaaah. Also, the Ring cycle isn't an opera but a tetralogy of operas (or, as the name implies, a cycle). JackofOz 01:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought that went kind of like a chicken saying: "Bak bak bak bak. Bak bak bak bak. Bak bak bak bak, bawhk bak bak.Edison 04:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It does, but then they do the whole thing again, only louder, with suitably emphasizi; "LA LAAA LA LA! LA LAAA LA LA! LU LAAA LU LAAA LAAA LAAA LUUUH!!!" TheMadBaron 06:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Emphasizi? sounds like some kind of tasty pasta! --froth^{T C} 07:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

La di dah. Lah di dah. Clarityfiend 07:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Try Musipedia.--Shantavira 08:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The Queen of the Night from Mozart's Magic Flute? Rentwa 19:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

No, that goes "da da da DAAH, da da da da da DAAH dah, ...... diddleiddle dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit DAAAH, diddleiddle dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit DAAAH, diddleiddle dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit, daah ..... etc etc." (Seriously) JackofOz 23:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Carmina Burana works very well. It is used on Ozzy's Randy Rhodes Tribute and in the movie "The Doors" amongst 900 other samples.