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November 9

Beta decay question.

When a radioactive element like polonium does beta radiation, where does that electron go? Can it become part of it's electron cloud and become a valence electron?

But textbooks says it's impossible to have a cup of water with cations only, or anions only. If you dump salt in water and stir it, if all the water evaporates, then all the salt ions binds back to form salt. So what happens if you dump polonium into water and let it release extra electrons. Can you suck out the polonium out, and then if you evaporate the water, you have excess electrons that are not in solution. You can't have ions in the solid phase. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2023 (UTC).[reply]

An electron isn't an ion. Also, that's dealing in ideal conditions, like an aqueous solution. You can absolutely have free ions, such as in the interstellar medium. You also can have ions in the solid phase, such as in table salt, they will just be associated (usually in crystalline form) with other ions that neutralize the total charge of the bulk solid. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 16:33, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

IP editor. Solvated electrons are actually quite common and well-known to experimental chemists as in concentrated solution they give attractive colours. Free-electron lasers are also known. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:49, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. I dislike how the solvated electrons article is written. It describes them as the smallest possible anion, but by definition, electrons are not anions as they are not charged atoms or molecules. I think it would be better to describe them as "anion like," but they more resemble point charges. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 17:09, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's the anion of zeronium, the element with atomic number zero. Well, strictly speaking, zeronium has another isotope, but only one stable isotope. --Trovatore (talk) 20:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC) [reply]

So is non-ionic zeronium (0 protons, 0 neutrons, 1 electron) negatively charged? --Lambiam 21:36, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For more on Z = 0, see neutronium. Double sharp (talk) 06:43, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's its most common heavier isotope. I was talking about

{}_{0}^{0}\mathrm {Ze}

, whose anion,

{}_{0}^{0}\mathrm {Ze} ^{-}

, was under discussion. --Trovatore (talk) 07:11, 10 November 2023 (UTC) [reply]

Seems a bit too simple to be simple if you ask me. Isotopes of the same element should at least behave chemically similarly, but the free neutron has no electron affinity. I think there needs to be some kind of existence clause in the definition of a chemical element requiring a nucleus and the ability to grab an electron cloud. :D Double sharp (talk) 07:33, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

...and as it turns out, there is. From the criteria on element discovery: It is not considered self-evident that talking about an ‘element’ makes sense if no outer electrons, bearers of the chemical properties, are present. Double sharp (talk) 13:09, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extending the IUPAC recommendations for naming hypothetical elements to Z = 0, the name should be nilium. --Lambiam 13:02, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, who listens to them? They can't even spell aluminum right. --Trovatore (talk) 18:12, 10 November 2023 (UTC) [reply]

Well dineutron is not stable, but tetraneutron might be. And a free neutron is not very stable either. DMacks (talk) 03:47, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting about the tetraneutron. But I didn't say the neutron was stable. The stable isotope I was talking about was

{}_{0}^{0}\mathrm {Ze}

. --Trovatore (talk) 18:42, 13 November 2023 (UTC) [reply]

The notion that a solvated electron is an anion may be due to the title "Electrons as Anions" of an often-cited brief paper, which however does not claim they are anions, but merely that "in a relatively new class of compounds, called electrides, that is exactly how they behave".^[1] --Lambiam 09:31, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With a beta decay, an atom with a extra positive charge is formed, and an electron. Although the electron is ejected and may go some milimeters through the water, the positive and negative still attract, and the ion and electron can recombine, if some other chemical reaction does not happen in the meantime. If the electrons escape from the water, the solution will become charged. There is a limit to the electric field before other interesting things happen. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:46, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]