Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2017 March 25
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March 25
[edit]Why can't humans hibernate?
[edit]Winter seems to be the worst time to grow food. It's too cold and snowy. Why can't humans hibernate during the winter and feast on as much food as possible during other seasons like squirrels? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 01:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- There is some material near the bottom of this page. Matt Deres (talk) 02:03, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- [Edit Conflict] Because humans evolved in Africa, quite recently in evolutionary terms, where there was no 'winter' corresponding to your description, and where in any case they did not grow food, being hunter-gatherers.
- After spreading out from Africa, they did not live long enough in latitudes with significant winter seasons to evolve hibernation before their burgeoning intelligence and culturally preserved learning enabled them to combat winter conditions by other means (for example clothing, use of fire, shelters, seasonal migration); some of them also evolved physically to withstand colder climates better. Once agriculture was invented, they became more tied to remaining in one place, but also learned to stockpile food to sustain them over the winter.
- Hibernation has drawbacks as well as advantages, in that hibernating individuals may be very vunerable to predation – if you're rare, large and/or fierce when awakened, or well hidden like squirrels your species can survive, but humans became too numerous and to findable by intelligent predators in the shape of other humans for this ever to be viable. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.12.80.28 (talk) 02:07, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- At Hypothermia#Signs_and_symptoms there is mention of a few states some of which are also associated with hibernation. But indeed we're not adapted for it. Also, other than predation, even for hibernating animals, there is an increased risk of death, they still must face a type of shock. Unfortunately I didn't find information about this latter part in the current hibernation article with a quick look. But I remember that some domestic animals which can hibernate in natural conditions can also enter
stuportorpor if the temperature is slightly too low. Sometimes they don't recover. PaleoNeonate (talk) 10:10, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- When you cite squirrels, I assume you mean members of the ground squirrels such as groundhogs because most tree squirrels don't hibernate. (There might be exceptions?) Dbfirs 12:02, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- I had the same question. Chipmunks and woodchucks are closely related and hibernate, but I see more squirrels in the winter than I do in the summer. μηδείς (talk) 15:43, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Tree squirrels behave like many of us humans in that, when the weather is particularly bad, they stay warm and dry in their dray and perhaps eat some of their stored food, but that isn't hibernation or even torpor. Dbfirs 16:51, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- I had the same question. Chipmunks and woodchucks are closely related and hibernate, but I see more squirrels in the winter than I do in the summer. μηδείς (talk) 15:43, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Humans react badly to disruption of their 24-hour Circadian rhythm that is controlled by a Circadian clock within the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), a bilateral nerve cluster of about 20,000 neurons in the hypothalamus.Experiments have found that normal people cannot entrain even to a longer 28-hour day and prolonged Circadian rhythm sleep disorders are associated with harmful psychological and functional difficulties. An Induced coma such as doctors may induce using a Barbiturate e.g. during major Neurosurgery or when treating rabies cannot be compared with a Hibernation and may result in cognitive impairment after recovery. Animal Dormancy is not well understood, particularly what triggers their Hibernation, or brumation the comparable reflex in Reptiles, but it can be noted that some are obligate hibernators and others are facultative hibernators i.e. they hibernate only when cold stressed or food deprived. Suspended animation of humans is at present a subject of speculation, experiment and fiction. Blooteuth (talk) 17:16, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Evolution is a random process and different species survive by evolving different strategies for survival. As an example, the Polar bear and the Arctic fox both live in Arctic but Polar bears hibernate and Actic foxes don't, so even if humans had originally evolved in a cold climate they wouldn't necessarily have evolved into a species that hibernates. Richerman (talk) 00:35, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- But can we say that evolving in a cold-winter climate is a necessary, although non-sufficient, condition to result in a hibernating species? We did evolve in Africa, so not a single chance that we would be hibernating. --Lgriot (talk) 18:24, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Evolution is a random process and different species survive by evolving different strategies for survival. As an example, the Polar bear and the Arctic fox both live in Arctic but Polar bears hibernate and Actic foxes don't, so even if humans had originally evolved in a cold climate they wouldn't necessarily have evolved into a species that hibernates. Richerman (talk) 00:35, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Why does the medical establishment blame fat?
[edit]Agenda-pushing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:21, 26 March 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Let's have a look at the actual science. The fact is that, regardless of people's belief, a high-carbohydrate diet is incompatible with our Paleolithic genome. It causes epidemics of obesity, hypertension, diabetes, and atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. Out diet should be consistent with our hunter-gatherer genetic legacy. [1] The Case Against Sugar is a book which gives a detained outline of the misguided dietary beliefs. Sugar industry paid scientists to blame fat [2][3] [4]. Despite all these, why does the medical establishment blame fat? --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 12:10, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
"Why did the medical establishment become fat?" PaleoNeonate (talk) 19:01, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
"“This study suggests that coronary atherosclerosis [hardening of the arteries] could be avoided if people adopted some elements of the Tsimané lifestyle, such as keeping their LDL cholesterol, blood pressure and blood sugar very low, not smoking and being physically active,” said senior cardiology author Dr Gregory S Thomas from Long Beach Memorial Medical Centre in the US. “Most of the Tsimané are able to live their entire life without developing any coronary atherosclerosis. This has never been seen in any prior research. While difficult to achieve in the industrialized world, we can adopt some aspects of their lifestyle to potentially forestall a condition we thought would eventually effect almost all of us.”" Carbohydrates are not essential for human nutrition [6][7] Despite this, the medical establishment supports the pseudoscientific theory of balanced diet that 50 to 60 percent of your total daily calories should come from carbohydrate. Is not this view similar to the view of the astronomy community 500 years back that the Sun revolves around the earth? --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 09:20, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
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Satiety - dietary fat or dietary fiber?
[edit]I've heard and read that dietary fiber regulates digestion and creates a sense of fullness. I've heard and read that dietary fat creates a sense of fullness, while sugar inhibits fullness. Okay, fine. How about eating something like an avocado, nuts, seeds, and mushrooms in a meal? Avocados, nuts, and seeds are relatively high in fat compared to carbohydrate and protein content, and mushrooms are relatively high in protein. Is satiety even measurable? Is it easier to reach satiety with a combination of both dietary fat and fiber, or is one better than the other? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 22:14, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Well, you can measure satiety indirectly with surveys and by recording how much more of the same item people eat after a meal. And a combo is likely better than one or the other, although, if the goal is to lose weight, the dieter may want to emphasize dietary fiber over fat, since it had no calories. StuRat (talk) 22:30, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- I wonder how the researchers would deal with confounding variables. One participant may be given a high-fat food (almonds) or high-sugar food (cherry). The cherry is sweeter and may be more appetizing than the almonds that are just eaten raw and plain. Then, the researcher would probably conclude that high-fat is filling, even though it may be the taste or personal preference of the participant. The researcher could swap out the almonds for a piece of fatty bacon, but not everybody likes bacon because of the extreme saltiness. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 22:59, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- First give group A, X calories of high-fiber food, and measure how much of food Y they eat after. Then give group B, X calories of high-fat food, and measure how much of food Y they eat after. One week later, repeat the study, with the groups reversed. Not perfect, and the foods aren't going to be pure fiber and pure fat (and still be edible), but good enough to see the trend. A mixed fat and fiber group may also be added. StuRat (talk) 00:06, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Its a bit more complicated yet simple. For instance, the Inuit (which I think is the pleural too) up in the far north, had a very high fat, low fiber diet, yet they had very low incidences of modern health problems until they adopted modern food stuffs. Dietary fiber does give the sensation of fullness but a high fat diet also provides satiety. Its satiety that you want to aim for. Start off with the paleo diet, then listen to your body telling you what it needs. Not what the food industry needs you to buy to incease their profits. Don't have to follow any fancy dietary régime – just listen to your body. This next bit is stupidly simple. After a meal – is your mind clear. After a meal – do you fit to take on the World. If yes to both questions, you are probably eating right.--Aspro (talk) 23:21, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Pleural isn't plural, it's singular, even though there are two lungs. :-) StuRat (talk) 23:57, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Inuit cuisine and Inuit is plural and Inuk singular. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 00:13, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Interesting — I didn't know that about the singular. I did know about the mess about "Inuit" versus "Eskimo". Short version: In Canada "Inuit" is usually preferred and "Eskimo" is one of those slightly risky words, not exactly a slur but something people learn to avoid. But that's because anyone in Canada who would be described as "Eskimo" probably is Inuit. The use of "Inuit" doesn't translate well to Alaska, where it's just plain inaccurate, so "Eskimo" is probably going to stick around a while, refined sensibilities notwithstanding. --Trovatore (talk) 00:45, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- This is largely a Canadian issue. All the Eskimos in Canada are Inuit, but not all Eskimos are Inuit. The Eskimos of South and Western Alaska are Yup'ik, they comprise a separate branch of the Eskimo language family, and their languages are more diverse. Given there's no common native word for both groups, Eskimo serves to cover both (and a few other dwindling or extinct historically known peoples). That, say, Russains might want to be called Russians, and not Slavs, makes sense. But that doesn't mean the term Slav is inaccurate, insulting, or a needless term. μηδείς (talk) 16:16, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Forgot the reference for the plural/singular and Inuit is preferred in Greenland as well. I'm aware of the use of Eskimo in Alaska especially after an interesting talk I heard in Iqaluit where a person from that state explained to a rather uncomfortable group of predominately Inuit that he, and others, in Alaska, didn't like being called Inuit. Until the last few years Eskimo was used from Ulukhaktok west, they preferred Inuvialuk or Inuinnaq with inuit (no capital) being the equivalent of person or human (Inuinnaqtun to English). By the way the organization that represents all Inuit/Eskimo globally is called the Inuit Circumpolar Council. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 01:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- This is largely a Canadian issue. All the Eskimos in Canada are Inuit, but not all Eskimos are Inuit. The Eskimos of South and Western Alaska are Yup'ik, they comprise a separate branch of the Eskimo language family, and their languages are more diverse. Given there's no common native word for both groups, Eskimo serves to cover both (and a few other dwindling or extinct historically known peoples). That, say, Russains might want to be called Russians, and not Slavs, makes sense. But that doesn't mean the term Slav is inaccurate, insulting, or a needless term. μηδείς (talk) 16:16, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Interesting — I didn't know that about the singular. I did know about the mess about "Inuit" versus "Eskimo". Short version: In Canada "Inuit" is usually preferred and "Eskimo" is one of those slightly risky words, not exactly a slur but something people learn to avoid. But that's because anyone in Canada who would be described as "Eskimo" probably is Inuit. The use of "Inuit" doesn't translate well to Alaska, where it's just plain inaccurate, so "Eskimo" is probably going to stick around a while, refined sensibilities notwithstanding. --Trovatore (talk) 00:45, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Inuit cuisine and Inuit is plural and Inuk singular. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 00:13, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Pleural isn't plural, it's singular, even though there are two lungs. :-) StuRat (talk) 23:57, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Talk to a dietician and an endocrinologist if your general practitioner recommends it. Experiment on yourself, and keep a journal. I have lost 40lbs after bariatric surgery in January. But I have noticed my hunger pattern has changed, and have had a variety of discomforts.
- I used to find food unappealing before the mid afternoon, a pattern for the last 30 years. I'd then have two normal meals, usually high in carbs (back when fat was evil) and then end up binging at bedtime. When I went off carbs after being diagnosed as diabetic, I still didn't eat in the morning, but then I had two all-I-could eat meat and salad meals. Then at bedtime, a tablespoon of peanut butter or 100g of black beans would quite satisfy me.
- Since the surgery, I have been on a very high protein diet, with three small meals a day, and still low in carbs and fat. The surgery made me unable (and not wanting) to eat more than 100g, usually 2/3 meat, 1/6 veg, 1/6 starch at one sitting. But since the surgery I have been waking up starving, even if my blood sugar is 140. (I discontinued all diabetes meds with the approval of the doctor, as my blood sugar didn't warrant it.) Yet 30 minutes after a meal I would be hungry again to the point of distraction, even though I was eating the equivalent of a lb a day.
- The nutritionist said that getting all my calories from protein was causing the hunger, and suggested two things: avoid any protein supplements except for whey; add ground flax seed (Metamucil until I go grocery shopping next) and eat banana, rice, applesauce and toast (see brat diet). Over the last week, the constant starving has gone away, my morning eating is normal, a tablespoon of peanut butter is my bedtime snack, and the other discomforts I had been suffering are greatly ameliorated.
- But that's me. You can't expect to find a one-size fits all solution. μηδείς (talk) 03:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Because of Gluconeogenesis, avoiding carbohydrates (good idea of course with diabetes) and "getting all calories from protein" doesn't make sense, for some of the protein will be converted to glucose. So fat is usually a major component of a low carb diet for diabetes. As the OP notes, it provides satiety and is of course an essential macronutrient.John Z (talk) 05:06, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Getting "all my calories from protein" was an exaggeration understood in the context of our conversation, but not by far, as I was consuming non-fat protein drinks, and having only one meal a day with fat, usually one egg or two ounces of not very fatty meat. The nutritionist wanted me to eat fiber, bananas, rice and toast, none of which is famed for its fat content. In any case, calling fat a "major" part of a low carb diet is still quite misleading; I am supposed to get 20% of my calories from fat. By weight that would even be less than 20% fat in my diet. μηδείς (talk) 16:49, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- What I meant by fat is usually major in "low carb diet for diabetes" is something like what Richard K. Bernstein (and many others now) suggest and follow: "low carb with unrestricted fat" for diabetes - Since he is perhaps the best known figure recommending the return to "low carb for diabetes". Low carb diets which did not eschew fat were the norm for diabetes before the discovery and use of insulin and in some places afterwards. As you say, everyone is different, some people may have specific reasons to restrict some fats.John Z (talk) 04:53, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Getting "all my calories from protein" was an exaggeration understood in the context of our conversation, but not by far, as I was consuming non-fat protein drinks, and having only one meal a day with fat, usually one egg or two ounces of not very fatty meat. The nutritionist wanted me to eat fiber, bananas, rice and toast, none of which is famed for its fat content. In any case, calling fat a "major" part of a low carb diet is still quite misleading; I am supposed to get 20% of my calories from fat. By weight that would even be less than 20% fat in my diet. μηδείς (talk) 16:49, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Because of Gluconeogenesis, avoiding carbohydrates (good idea of course with diabetes) and "getting all calories from protein" doesn't make sense, for some of the protein will be converted to glucose. So fat is usually a major component of a low carb diet for diabetes. As the OP notes, it provides satiety and is of course an essential macronutrient.John Z (talk) 05:06, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- An all bratwurst diet does sound good. :-) StuRat (talk) 03:57, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- I lost 20lbs one summer by eating only mozzarella sticks and froot loops. That may explain a lot. μηδείς (talk) 04:10, 26 March 2017 (UTC)+
- Like why you are loopy ? StuRat (talk) 04:17, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Surprised that μηδείς didn’t remind us of that little ditty of the 1960's :
- “Oh I'm Popeye the Eskimo.
- I live in a house of snow.
- I lay on my belly and wobble like jelly.
- I'm Popeye the sailor man.”
- He must have been a keene devotee of the Mediterranean diet too, because apart from eating spinach he was in love with Olive Oyl. Neither was Popeye a potato. After all, he said it himself many a time : “I Yam What I Yam”... which you would agree, is a different type of tuber.--Aspro (talk) 17:29, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Wind direction, high and low
[edit]I've asked this before, but still don't get it.
This says the wind is going from east to west (an east wind). This (click play) says the wind is going from west to east (a west wind).
From what I remember being told, the first link reports ground level wind, and the second reports higher wind. Is this right?
If this is right, does that mean Haikou is now getting its weather from Vietnam rather than Hong Kong?
Many thanks, and sorry to bother you all again with this.
Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:04, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- A pollution record and forecast are about where people live, which is close to the surface. In this case the wind direction should be the surface wind direction. There are a number of different ways to derive wind data from satellite data, see for instance NOAA wind products. But if in your second link you simply mean the apparent wind direction as measured from cloud movement, then yes, clouds move according to wind at cloud levels. It is often the clouds that determine the general pattern of weather, so the satellite animation would be a more accurate view of where recent weather came from. --Mark viking (talk) 00:30, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you so, so much, Mark. This has been driving me nuts for ages. I find it astonishing that the wind here at ground level is so often opposite to the direction of incoming weather. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:38, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- In meteorology, wind direction is always mentioned as to where the wind is coming from (an East wind is a wind that is blowing in from the East) no matter what height the wind is being measured at. Guy1890 (talk) 01:11, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Sick and then not sick again for a long time
[edit]After you get a cold or flu, you don't get it again for a while. You never get another flu a week later. Why? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:04, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- See epidemiology. A pathogen spreads by any sort of contact. It may be macroscopic contact (you touching a doorknob) or microscopic contact (you breathing in water vapor from someone's sneeze). Your body attempts to fight these foreign invaders and builds immunity so that you don't get sick again. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 23:23, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- But you build an immunity to that exact bug, right? So how come you don't just get another bug. There are lots of them. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:50, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Common cold notes that there are over 200 viral strains. Your question is similar to what I've always understood. Although the article doesn't say it, the immunity you develop for a cold is supposedly to a specific virus. So if you get exposed to another cold virus sometime later, you could be vulnerable. People seem to get fewer colds as they get older, and one theory I've heard is that each time you get a cold, your immune system checks off another strain. However, as the article notes, colds are caused by exposure, and kids seem to get exposed a lot more often. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:55, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- You might, but there is usually only one flu bug and one cold bug in circulation at any one time. Abductive (reasoning) 23:58, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Ahhh, I see. Okay, that explains it. Many thanks! :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:05, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- You might, but there is usually only one flu bug and one cold bug in circulation at any one time. Abductive (reasoning) 23:58, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- Common cold notes that there are over 200 viral strains. Your question is similar to what I've always understood. Although the article doesn't say it, the immunity you develop for a cold is supposedly to a specific virus. So if you get exposed to another cold virus sometime later, you could be vulnerable. People seem to get fewer colds as they get older, and one theory I've heard is that each time you get a cold, your immune system checks off another strain. However, as the article notes, colds are caused by exposure, and kids seem to get exposed a lot more often. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:55, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- But you build an immunity to that exact bug, right? So how come you don't just get another bug. There are lots of them. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:50, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think that's correct. As noted in Influenza vaccine, multiple strains are included in the vaccine every year. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:06, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, silly rabbit, that is done in an attempt to predict which strain will win. Abductive (reasoning) 02:33, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Can you present a source for "only one flu bug and one cold bug in circulation at any one time"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:59, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Here's something the NHS do every year, an annual report. Page 22 will demonstrate that one or maybe two viruses are prevalent at any one time. Vaccinations usually work against a handful of variants (see this CDC page) so there's always a significant chance that the wrong virus strain will be that which dominates against researchers best efforts. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:03, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Can you present a source for "only one flu bug and one cold bug in circulation at any one time"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:59, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, silly rabbit, that is done in an attempt to predict which strain will win. Abductive (reasoning) 02:33, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think that's correct. As noted in Influenza vaccine, multiple strains are included in the vaccine every year. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:06, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Anecdotally, when my mother worked in preschool, she would get at least 3-4 colds/other bugs every winter. Since she retired 5-6 years ago, I think she's been sick once. Kids are germ factories. --47.138.161.183 (talk) 00:01, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, they are total germ factories! They're all jammed (jambed?) together in schools and have a lot of physical contact. Speaking of jam, their hands are always sticky, and if you ever let them have a sip of your drink, hold it up to the light after. It will be filled with an enormous amount of backwash particles, even if they've had nothing to eat. Try it and see. Extraordinary! :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:05, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- A good argument for teleteaching, especially if the anti-vaccination lobby gets more converts and the diseases become deadly.
- On an episode of 3rd Rock from the Sun the (alien) family thought they were under biological attack: "They've sent in a human petri dish in a miniskirt to infect us !" StuRat (talk) 00:12, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- I've had back-to-back colds (a week apart, say) over the holidays, especially from my niblings visiting. It's actually become somewhat of a morbid family joke, asking what symptoms we should expect a few days after their arrival. But otherwise, I've certainly gotten sick far less often as I've aged, and the severity of the colds is much less. Can't remember the last flu I had; probably the late 80's, before I started getting the shot. Bronchitis is what I dread, but that's bacterial.μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- Absolutely wrong, bronchitis is usually viral. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:58, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- According to the talk page, this would be better taken to a user talk page, and you should also back off from your confrontational tone. Nonetheless, according to the Bronchitis article, nearly all bronchitis is caused by virus. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:22, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- We've been over this already. There is no confrontation, just a precise explanation that the medical advice given here is completely incorrect. That does not belong on a user talk page, the OP needs to know that they are being given false medical advice. Saying that something is "absolutely wrong" is clear statement of fact, especially when backed up reliable sources which demonstrate to the OP that some users here are providing false and unreferenced medical advice. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:40, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- I am sure you are right, but I usually get white patches and am put on antibiotics when I get throat infections. Those are definitely bacterial. μηδείς (talk) 22:21, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- According to the talk page, this would be better taken to a user talk page, and you should also back off from your confrontational tone. Nonetheless, according to the Bronchitis article, nearly all bronchitis is caused by virus. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:22, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Absolutely wrong, bronchitis is usually viral. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:58, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- I've had back-to-back colds (a week apart, say) over the holidays, especially from my niblings visiting. It's actually become somewhat of a morbid family joke, asking what symptoms we should expect a few days after their arrival. But otherwise, I've certainly gotten sick far less often as I've aged, and the severity of the colds is much less. Can't remember the last flu I had; probably the late 80's, before I started getting the shot. Bronchitis is what I dread, but that's bacterial.μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
side discussion--Jayron32 19:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- If you were in your late 80's when you last had a flu, it's no wonder you can't remember. :-) StuRat (talk) 03:20, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- The OP went on to ask: “ But you build an immunity to that exact bug, right? So how come you don't just get another bug. There are lots of them.” which I don't think has been fully answered. Both cold and influenza virus tend to mutate very slowly (OK there are sometimes exceptions). Once the body has acquired immunity to one virus strain, it can normally cope and adapt to close variants picked up through normal contact. Meaning, that the new virus strain is only present in small quantities, too small to evoke an illness. So the immune system can update itself in small doses. Preventing another cold etc. Working in a germ factory (say a school) overrides the speed that the immune system can update. There are some little bacterial horrids too, like cholera, tenuous, anthrax, botulism etc., that are ubiquitous in our environment but they don't cause problems unless the victim is exposed to too many of these pathogenics at once. --Aspro (talk) 19:20, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- It's also not quite true to say the immunity is to the exact bug. Your immune system "learns" to recognize (by producing an antibody for) a specific antigen on the surface of the virus, and react accordingly (OK, it's a little more complicated than that, but this is just a first-order explanation). So it's possible for the virus to mutate in a way which preserves the antigens your body uses to recognize it, and you would still have immunity to that strain. This was actually the basis for the first vaccine, as smallpox (deadly) and cowpox (inconvenient) share enough common antigens that the immune system can recognize smallpox if it has been previously exposed to cowpox. Therefore, infecting people with cowpox deliberately prevents them from contracting the much worse smallpox infection later. Of course, if the virus mutates to no longer show the same antigens, then your body does not recognize it, and you get a new cold or flu. MChesterMC (talk) 09:25, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, that is a good way of putting it. The viral RNA may be slightly different from the last virus but immune system recognizes the common protein coat (capsid) on the new virus as not self and attacks it. Or perhaps another way of putting it ( because the way immune system works is very complicated) The foreign protein is not self meaning that the immune system sees it as potential food. This is because it part of the immune systems function to examine all the food stuff particles which permeates through the gut wall and convert it into food for the body. --Aspro (talk) 18:29, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Thank you all. I'm watching and reading. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:36, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- The common cold article explains that it is common for multiple strains of viruses to be present. For example, during the SARS outbreak two were circulating together so frequently that as I recall it took months to figure out which was the one responsible for the symptoms. Of course, when people are infected with two at once they tend to call it a "bad cold". But I've certainly also suffered where a cold strikes, then there is a false hope, and another. Conceivably some interference might occur due to interferons; they are produced in response to colds and in more technically advanced countries like Soviet/ex-Soviet Russia interferon 2-alfa is used to help treat them. But the downside of being sick while trying to fight off a new infection is also substantial... Wnt (talk) 22:43, 28 March 2017 (UTC)