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June 23

British and EU democracy

I'm not British but have some questions about British vs. EU democracy (in the light of the Brexit campaign).

a) I understand that roughly speaking, in the UK the democratically elected House of Commons proposes and shapes new laws. These then pass through the appointed and not democratically elected House of Lords, that can change or reject, and there is also the possible veto at the end by the Queen that (almost) never happens. Is that right more or less?

b) So: does the democratically elected European Parliament function in the same way as the House of Commons, with the role of EU MEPs corresponding to British MPs?

c) Why do British people say the EU is run by bureaucrats or technocrats? - do the EU bureaucrats just have the same power and status as high-standing (and not elected) civil servants in the UK, or is it very different?

d) So is it possible or not to say that ultimately the UK parliament is more democratically run, according to people's voting patterns, than the EU parliament, or vice versa?

Please explain, thank you. ZygonLieutenant (talk) 02:15, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

According to our House of Lords article: "While it is unable to prevent Bills passing into law, except in certain limited circumstances, it can delay Bills and force the Commons to reconsider their decisions." So, they can't normally reject bills passed by the House of Commons. StuRat (talk) 02:41, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your understanding is basically correct. Both parliaments operate largely the same. The 'less democratic' argument is a lie espoused by Bexiters, largely when they don't want to say the real reason they're voting out (they're racist). Fgf10 (talk) 07:04, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the EU laws require the approval of both the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers. The parliament is democratically elected. The council consists of the representatives of the governments of the 28 member states - and the rules require a qualified majority (which is more than 50%, and is tied both to the number of countries but also to their relative populations - so the bigger countries cannot be outvoted by the smaller ones). The Commission, which everyone complains about, is the civil service - they draft the legislation (usually at the request of the council of ministers), then oversee its application. Wymspen (talk) 08:36, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The European Parliament is able to force the British Parliament to pass legislation, so for many British people, the idea of the Mother of Parliaments being told what to do by a lot of foreigners is beyond the pale (sadly, a majority of MEPs are just not British). However, I think the main target of British angst is the European Commission, which can use existing legislation to enforce (some would say arbitrary) regulations on Member States. A regularly cited example is Commission Regulation (EC) No. 2257/94 which says that bananas cannot be sold in the EU if they have "abnormal curvature". Of course, Wikipedia also has an article saying that this is a Euromyth, so who knows. How do I change my ballot card from this morning? :-) Alansplodge (talk) 20:21, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and here's a reference - EU Regulations: "Dictatorship of the Bureaucrats"?. Alansplodge (talk) 20:29, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well the wikipedia article you linked to also implies it's a Euromyth since the shape ones only apply to high class bananas. Nil Einne (talk) 14:52, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note, Alansplodge, that the expression "The mother of parliaments" is a reference to England, not to the UK Parliament. A common misassumption, even over where you are. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:05, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note that one significant difference between the UK parliament (or actually many) and the European Parliament is the later lacks legislative initiative. While most bills in the UK parliament have bureaucrat involvement nominally there's nothing stopping the British parliament from making bills completely on their own AFAIK which can't happen with the European Parliament. That said, as our article explains, the idea that most European laws are something the bureaucrats of the European Commission came up with by themselves is a myth. Nil Einne (talk) 14:17, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here is an op-ed by suspense novelist Frederick Forsyth that argues for Brexit on the basis that the EU is anti-democratic, saying of the EU architects:

The whole group was mesmerised by one fact. In 1933 the Germans, seized by rabid nationalism, voted Adolf Hitler into power. Their conclusion: the people, any people, were too obtuse, too gullible, too dim ever to be safely entrusted with the power to elect their government.
People’s democracy was flawed and should never be permitted to decide government again if war was to be avoided. Real power would have to be confined to a non-elective body of enlightened minds like theirs.

It comes across as conspiracy-tinged to me but I'm not well-informed on the issue. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 19:48, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rule, Britannia!

When Britain has voted for the Brexit, what wikimedia files, such as a wordless Rule, Britannia, or My Country, T'is of Thee will be available to add to my user page? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 03:59, 23 June 2016 (UTC) [reply]

off topic accusations

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Waive Britannia, Britannia waives the rules... Akld guy (talk) 06:08, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

When. Richard Avery (talk) 06:50, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See Category:Poor Law in Britain and Ireland. Also Wishful thinking. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:58, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A) What does have to do with the refdesk, b) the vote will most likely be remain, so not 'when', and c) why do you care in the first place? Fgf10 (talk) 07:07, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Thus spake the nanny. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:25, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The answer to the question is, exactly the same as now. If the poster was trying to get a political argument going, the answer is to close this discussion as irrelevant to the purpose of this desk - we are not a chatroom. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:13, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My country, t'is of thee? Isn't that an American patriotic song? Wymspen (talk) 08:40, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's 'tis, with the apostrophe standing for the missing first I of "it is". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:05, 23 June 2016 (UTC) [reply]

The bookmakers are predicting a win for Remain. While I've no idea if they're right or not, I have, as the saying goes, never met a poor bookmaker. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:02, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is the wisdom of crowds. The odds simply represent the individual views of a large cross - section of people. 80.44.160.251 (talk) 14:33, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A referendum is also by definition the wisdom of the crowd. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:50, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I won't enter the purple box, as I don't think this was a genuine question (and medeis, it's a turn-off to see you, who seems to enjoy policing the desks, posting a loaded question on a topic that is particularly sensitive to a lot of readers today), nevertheless: The skeleton question hasn't been answered, so: File:Rule, Britannia.ogg and File:My Country 'Tis Of Thee.ogg are instrumental versions of the tunes you asked for. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:00, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Say what you will about medies, but I'm fairly sure nobody has ever accused her of consistency. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:50, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We can at least set an example by spelling Medeis's name correctly in its English transliteration. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:06, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Small correction: File:Rule, Britannia.ogg is not an instrumental version - it has the lyrics of the first verse sung at the end. Of course it's still suitable for expressing patriotic British feelings. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:42, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your thoroughness, Stephan! (I clicked

too soon). ---Sluzzelin talk 17:05, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thanks, Sluzzelin, I simply have never added a sound file, and don't know how to look them up. I have added other files for other events. It's really not relevant what my POV is, but asking what files are available is not trolling or in need of policing. μηδείς (talk) 20:52, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- These Ogg Oggilby things don't work very well on my PC. I wonder what Wikipedia has against MP3 or WAV format? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:29, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WAV is bulky, and MP3 is or perhaps used to be? I don't remember when it was set to expire patent-encumbered. I seriously doubt your hardware has any problem with Ogg Vorbis. Just find a good player. --Trovatore (talk) 22:32, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So Oggilby is free. That explains it. Free, and worth the price. No big deal. I can just find a given song on youtube and then use my youtube-to-mp3 converter and get a usable file. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:45, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Free as in speech, not free as in beer." Well, actually, also free as in beer, but that's not the differentiator here (MP3 is usually free as in beer too). --Trovatore (talk) 00:30, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Ogg Vorbis is technically superior to most other major codecs. It's not particularly hard to find software to replay it on any current OS. And while conversion from one lossy format to another has certain disadvantages, it is possible with free software. Ripping YouTube is unlikely to produce better quality, and in many cases will actually be illegal. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:56, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just download VLC. Boom, now you can play anything. clpo13_(talk) 23:00, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I am misunderstanding the article, Firefox, Chrome and Opera all can play Ogg without downloading any extra programs. Rmhermen (talk) 23:12, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all the help. I used to use Safari to edit, which didn't ogg. See my current talk page for the results. I also went with the US Marine Band version of God Save the Queen, as it seemed of the best quality. μηδείς (talk) 04:24, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks like your initial predication was correct. Not just "wishful thinking". :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:47, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - Just because you're paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:59, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]