Miscellaneous desk
< November 23	<< Oct \| November \| Dec >>	November 25 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Miscellaneous Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

November 24

Would anyone like to help reach a consensus on this: Talk:Sasanian_Empire#Recommendations_to_Map_workshop_team

I am not sure where else to go on regards to this topic. I do not know whether to use WP:RfC or go here on regards to this topic. I have been working with the Wikipedia Map Cartographers on regards to a new map of the Sasanian Empire and I have brought up the topic on the Sasanian Empire talk page itself. See Here: Talk:Sasanian_Empire#Recommendations_to_Map_workshop_team.

So far only two people have responded to the topic. One of the editors agrees completely with my proposal whereas the other editor wishes to use a map made by German professor of pre-Islamic history of Iran Erich Kettenhofen published in the Tübinger Atlas des Vorderen Orients. Personally, I do not like that idea because of two things:

1. We would have to have permission from that professor to use that image on Wikipedia.

2. A map made by the Wikipedia Cartographers would be much better anyway, especially since it would be considered work entirely made by Wikipedia users and we would be able to freely use it. :D

That being said, would anyone like to reach a consensus on this topic?

Talk:Sasanian_Empire#Recommendations_to_Map_workshop_team. Keeby101 (talk) 02:42, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

An RfC would be correct. We have enough drama here, that we stay out of content disputes. μηδείς (talk) 03:00, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

μηδείς is right that this is the wrong place. That said if you had asked in a more suitable place like the help desk, you may also get some more general advice which I will offer here. First, remember you would need the copyright holder to release the image under a suitable licence. Permission to use it on wikipedia does not cut it. Note I said copyright holder here for a reason. If the map was published in a book, unless the book includes a clear copyright statement for the map, it could be the copyright actually belongs to whoever made the map which may not be the professor or even the publisher of the book. And whether or not the map is used in the article, I expect the map will be a useful addition to the Wikimedia Commons. Therefore there's no harm in requesting the map be appropriately licenced. Remember also WP:NFCC makes it clear we're unlikely to accept a map of this sort as NFC, therefore preferences are moot if the map isn't suitably licenced. Nil Einne (talk) 22:12, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Royal Mail (UK) Abbreviations

Does Royal Mail have a list of approved abbreviations for street types, similar to what the US Postal Service provides on the second tab of http://www.usps.com/send/official-abbreviations.htm ? I searched http://www.royalmail.com without luck. Cheers! —Nelson Ricardo (talk) 03:54, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stravenue?! About 99% of those terms would not be used in UK thoroughfare addresses. St., Rd., Ave., Lane, Gdns., Bvld., Circ., would account for 99% of British addresses and the need for an 'approved list' is very low. The Royal Mail always used to (and maybe still does) pride itself on deciphering and delivering badly written addresses. In 65+ years I've never heard of an approved address abbreviation list. Does the US Mail Service not deliver mail that does not use the approved abbreviation? Richard Avery (talk) 08:29, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stravenue. (yeah, I looked it up too.) WHAAOE Rmhermen (talk) 13:47, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) It seems unlikely to me, as sorting is done almost entirely by postcode (since 1971 according to our article). You can write '75 ZX3 5QV' on an envelope and it will get to the right place. I dimly remember being taught in school that "St." stood for "street" and "Cres." for "crescent", but if there was a standard Post Office system, they would have needed to tell people about it so that they could use it. Alansplodge (talk) 08:35, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is an official list of abbreviations here (item 10). However it hardly seems necessary to use abbreviations these days, and I never do so.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:33, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that the list of 'approved' or 'official' abbreviations has little to do with what a given postal service will actually deliver for you, and much more with providing people who want to use an abbreviation (or who need to decipher one!) with a useful resource. (For example, having a standard to use means that my customer database doesn't have to worry about duplicate records for Foo Ave and Foo Av—and that my database can talk to my contractor's database.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:45, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The official abbreviations, along with the two-letter state abbreviations, help automated sorting equipment work better. Mail that cannot be sorted by the machines is kicked out to be hand-sorted. It will still be delivered, but there may be a small delay. → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 18:03, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Machine sorting in the UK is done entirely on the postcode. If it doesn't have one on, it's then down to a human reading the address with the Mark One Eyeball, so whether you write "Ave" "Av" or "Avenue" doesn't matter a jot. The list Shantavira found seems to be so that you can search their software to find a particular postcode. Alansplodge (talk) 20:32, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, everyone, especially Shantavira! —Nelson Ricardo (talk) 02:43, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To answer Richard Avery's side question, the US Postal Service (USPS) will deliver mail with non-official abbreviations, but less reliably so and with a greater chance of delay. I think that the USPS's address-label reading software is programmed to recognize only official abbreviations. The official abbreviation list is mainly meant for bulk mailers (especially advertisers, invoicers, to a lesser extent publications) who have an interest in quick and efficient delivery. Marco polo (talk) 20:12, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have to correct myself. No doubt the USPS official abbreviations are for automated character recognition and parsing, but they are not intended for bulk mailers, who would instead use POSTNET. Marco polo (talk) 02:59, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a known letters puzzle?

I've created a letters puzzle for my kids, and was wondering if this type is known. I haven't found the exact type in Wikipedia articles nor in a Google search, so maybe you could help and refer me. It goes like this:

You are given a phrase and an empty N by M cell table, and your goal is to fill the cells with letters so that the phrase could be read starting from a letter and moving one cell at a time. The rules are:

- One letter per cell.

- Phrase should be read using adjacent cells (vertically, horizontally and diagonally).

- A letter may be used more than once.

Simple example: "This is eight", 3*2, and a possible solution is:

T H E

G I S

Another example (I have the solution): "Obladi oblada life goes on", 4*3, and there are more.

Gil_mo (talk) 18:04, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This game is (a variant of) "Inverse Boggle" - see, for example, here and here. Tevildo (talk) 19:31, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Coffee drinkers!!

I'm trying to find out what coffee bean grinder Michael Caine uses in the opening sequence of The Ipcress File movie, and if I could possibly get hold of one. Surely there's some coffee nerds forums out there that discuss stuff like this? Only I'm having trouble finding anything.87.114.37.17 (talk) 19:42, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I had a good rummage through Google and the best that I can do is The Guardian, Wednesday 19 March 2003 which says; "He (Michael Caine) grinds the beans in what looks like a prototype for my Moulinex 205". Moulinex was a well known brand in the UK in the ~~1970s~~ 1960s, although it was mostly for food mixers and blenders - selling coffee grinders in England is a bit like trying to sell bicycle clips in Bermuda. Alansplodge (talk) 20:26, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My mum had one exactly like that. It would be the 60s. It lasted for years and years. She didn't use it for grinding coffee though but for things like making icing sugar from granulated. She called it her Mouli-mixer. Definitely a Moulinex of some sort. Thincat (talk) 22:43, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a bit similar but clearly a later version by the look of the styling. Thincat (talk) 23:00, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I had one of those. It lasted for decades. Good for spices. Unfortunately, you can't get similar ones any more, last least not at Argos. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:36, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The ~~gun maker~~ Krups makes wonderful grinders. μηδείς (talk) 23:43, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean ~~the gun maker~~ Krups makes wonderful grinders for this sort of purpose? [1]. They can give a bigger kick than caffeine alone.--Aspro (talk) 02:07, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I had a friend of a friend in college who was like Rob Reiner's Marxist atheist Jewish character in Bullets Over Broadway. I used to pick on him for owning a coffee grinder made by a German gun merchant every time he used it, which was every time I saw him. I almost feel guilty now. μηδείς (talk) 03:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A final point: In [Funeral_in_Berlin_(film)], Ross (his boss) refused to give this MI 5 agent (aka Michael Caine) a loan for a car. So why would a down-on-the-heels MI 5 agent be wasting his money on a Moulinex grinder? Obviously, he diverted it to his flat (apartment) after some IRA hoist..... and found it could also grind coffee. This was shot in 1960's England. Other than little Jewish owned delicatessens were could you buy freshly roasted coffee beans in those days? (OK,before any one else tells me you could get coffee beans from Harrods, Selfridges etc. but look at him. On his salary and dressed that way, he would have been turned away before he could get through their doors). --Aspro (talk) 02:49, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When I was a kid in the 60s there was a shop in Grimsby that sold nothing but coffee, roasted offee beans and teas. I remember it because of the unique smell. I thought it was one of the best smells going. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 07:55, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. I dislike brewed coffee, and prefer a tablespoon of instant coffee stirred into a tall glass of milk. μηδείς (talk) 02:21, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Instant coffee! – Milk !!-- sacrilege!!! Next, you be telling me you like sugar in it to. Wash your mouth out with soap and water.--Aspro (talk) 02:49, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's like chocolate milk with a bang. Bustelo brand instant espresso in cold milk and maybe a quarter teaspoon of sugar or sweetener. μηδείς (talk) 03:03, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For those that drink only instant, there is only one way to a proper cup. Buy arabica not the Brazilian stuff. Place on (what in Europe we call a cast iron skittle) and roast. Grind and put grounds in a briki ( a kind of pot with a handle). Heat upon a charcoal fire (aromatic pine would be fine - if you can get hold of Myrrh please invite me round to do a quality check, I don't charge for this service) until it froths. Pour in to cup and drink. In America you get billed an enormous amount for what you can do at home for very little. Mind you, do this in the morning, if you do it after 6 pm you will be wide awake all night. You have been warned.--Aspro (talk) 03:09, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ooh, what a palaver! BTW, I think you mean skillet not skittle. Alansplodge (talk) 17:42, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Blame that on my spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
           
Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
           
As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.--Aspro (talk) 18:18, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What's weird is that everyone knows that spellcheckers have minds of their own and frequently put unintended words into the mouths and pens and fingers of writers, yet many writers still accept whatever they come up with, without feeling the need to check. Someone should write a doctoral thesis about this phenomenon. :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:10, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Grate idea. If you were to right this thesis yourself and so gain a PhD, you could change your handle from jack of Oz to Professor Marvel: [2]. Of course, it would mean you will knot be in Kansas any moor.--Aspro (talk) 00:49, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Y'know, I've got this strange feeling I've never actually been in Kansas at any time in my entire life. Not this time around, anyway. Maybe that explains why I have long had this sense that something's wrong, terribly wrong, but I could never put my finger on exactly what. Maybe I should relocate. Wait ... that would bring me into close proximity to Baseball Bugs. Hmm, better think this through a bit more. I'll talk it over with the Friends of Dorothy. Watch this space. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:28, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Uhmm. See your point but if Bugs has long ears... you could finnish off what Elmer Fudd failed to do. Elmer only ever used a shot gun. A thermonuclear weapon might be more effective and you can pick one up quite cheaply these days on eBay (failing that try Craigslist). I think, all that Dorothy's friends will tell you, is to follow the Yellow Brick Road. After all.. She only had the Wicked Witch of the West to contend with.--Aspro (talk) 01:47, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]