Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 June 5

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June 5

Speech Synthesis : How many recordings?

This question posted in response to answers given in response to a previous discussion

Is there any way of determining how many words you need in any given 'industrial' system using a a speech synth?

For example , a typical niche industrial system shouldn't need more than 200 relativly simple words, whereas a more complex semi-interactive system might need more.

I hate to imagine what vocabulary level an interactive amintronic Lincoln would need....

Any thoughts? Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:56, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Speech synthesisers don't use recordings of words (if they did they wouldn't synthesising anything). Synthesisers assemble a collection of sounds (sometimes recordings, sometimes themselves synthetic), compose them together (sometimes changing them in the process), and emit the result. How many such sounds you need depends on the type of synthesis you're performing, whether you support features like inflection, the details of the spoken language you're using and the domain you're talking about. Speech synthesis has more - you can get by, with basic phonetic simulation, with a few dozen, but high quality synthesis could call for thousands. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 13:20, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Mostly, they're using 'phoneme synthesis' - depending on which system is used (and which language is being synthesised), there are about 25 to 30 phonemes. You can read about them in English phonology - but they are kinda like letters in an 'acoustic' alphabet - you can "spell" words with phonemes (although the spelling isn't like regular English spelling). However, it's not as simple as replaying a sequence of short sound samples from a library of 25 to 30 snippets (although that's how early systems worked)...modern speech synthesis involves complicated blends between phoneme sounds. Speech synthesis has much more detail about this.

Having said that - if you're talking about a telephone response system or something - then they'll probably have recorded entire phrases read by a human speaker and the computer is merely replaying entire canned responses. Unless your computer has to produce speech from a stream of arbitary text, it's probably better to just record the complete set of phrases you need to have it say. SteveBaker (talk) 14:47, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

They do usually use combinations for things that change a lot like the time, dates (may do all the dates though, i.e. January 1st to December 31st and then just add the year) and account balances. At least in my experience.

Occasionally they will have to add something later and can't be bothered hiring the same speaker (or whatever) so there will be a different voice for new things. I don't so much mean special promotions or whatever where it's not that surprising to get a different voice but a case where it seems a bit unusual particularly if it's part of the same 'conversation' E.g. for complaints about censorship press 1, for complaints about pornography press 2, for complaints about a specific article press 3, for complaints about something on the main page press 4, for complaints about Jimbo Wales press 5, for complaints about the donation banner press 6, for complaints about the Vector skin press 7.

Nil Einne (talk) 05:35, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

It's difficult to determine. If all you need for your synthesis machine to come up with is a sentence frame and numbers in the middle (like directly above this response), then you have a relatively small number of recordings it can just play in sequence. But it's not altogether simple if you want it naturally. To sound natural, you need to at least distinguish between phrase-final numbers and non-final numbers, or the intonation will sound wrong, so you need to have a double set at least of numbers (and likely more for more natural-sounding sequences. If you don't have a small set of pre-established responses (i.e. it will be generating the answers rather than choosing from a list), you need to move to text-to-speech synthesis. The basic number for text-to-speech synthesis is the same as the number of phonemes, but that will sound horribly clunky. You need to have at least the number of phones that occur in spoken English, knowing where they will appear in any given word (harder than it seems). That will still sound a bit clunky unless you accound for transitions between different combinations of phones. It's also important for a really good system to replicate the dynamicity of vowels and the subtle, barely audible differences between vowels in different environments. The differences may be barely audible, but they are also the cues for being able to distinguish synthetic from natural speech. Intonation is an even bigger issue. Steewi (talk) 03:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I have a text to speech program called text aloud, it uses a free voice called Microsoft sam which sounds like a robot and must be very easy to synth, since the whole program is 30-40MB. So I guess it just uses the bare phonemes. However you can ADD on better voices such as AT&T natural voices which are about 500MB each and sound much better, so they much include a LOT more then just the phonemes. Vespine (talk) 06:05, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Sci Fi Novel

In the period 2005-2006 I read about new sci fi novel bing published. I have since lost the note I made and have been unable to find the book. The plot involved a near-future earth that was tremedously overcrowded. World government decreed that on a specific day everyone son the planet should simultaneously take a pill. Randomly scattered among the pills were approximately 30 percent that were fatal. No one (except the manufacturer)would know which pills were fatal. World society reluctantly agreed to use this technique to reduce earth's population. But the hero discovered that world government had rigged the distribution process so that the only deaths would be among the enemies of the government. He set out to stop the upcoming event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.76.130 (talk) 19:38, 5 June 2010 (UTC) <email removed>

Had a serious google around for ten minutes, no luck at all. Apologies. SmokingNewton _{(MESSAGE ME)} 20:07, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

That's almost exactly the plot of Nature's End by Whitley Strieber and James Kunetka. It was published in 1986, however. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 20:40, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

SciFi? wasn't that one of Cheney's programs? --Ludwigs2 22:19, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed your email to prevent you being spammed. Like it says at the top ofd the page: "Do not provide your contact information. E-mail or home addresses, or telephone numbers, will be removed. You must return to this page to get your answer." Astronaut (talk) 05:46, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Advise on subject combination

Is it good for Electrical Power Engineer to study Digital Signal Processing?221.120.250.83 (talk) 20:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The more you know - the better equipped you are. The real question is what (if anything) you have to drop from your Power engineering course in order to take the DSP course? SteveBaker (talk) 05:50, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Well then i have to choose one of these 1.Measurement and Instrumentation 2.High Voltage course —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.120.250.73 (talk) 06:35, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you more interested in the high voltage things like transformers, insulators, cables etc, or do you prefer doing things with control of the network?--PeekyWeedia (talk) 10:47, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Grapes for wine = seemingly millions of varieties, Grapes as fruit = red or white

My question is pretty simple: Why are there an endless variety of wines (ignoring that wines flavour is more than just the grape but is processing/storage too) but no varieties of 'fruit' grapes. Example - in my local Tesco there's probably 200+ different bottles of wine, all described in different ways and (as I understand) many different varieties of grapes that they come from. In the same Tesco there are 2 types of grapes - red or white. Now i'm not saying there should be 100s of varieties of grapes but there are a good 10-15 varieties of Apples and countless types of Oranges...but never with grapes. Any ideas why (beyond the obvious that wine grapes aren't great for consumption - still could be plenty of varieties grown for fruit) ? ny156uk (talk) 20:32, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, this is because fruit buyers show a distinct preference for seedless varieties of grapes, of which there are only a handful (seedless grapes are non-viable mutations that only persist through grafting and careful husbandry). In upscale stores you'll find other varieties, particularly champagne grapes (in season) and those big purple globe grapes I don't know the name of, but otherwise it's just the seedless guys. --Ludwigs2 20:49, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

As an aside, if you ever have the opportunity to purchase Muscat grapes buy as many as you can carry and eat them with cheese (I recommend rocamadour). They are very seldom available (at least where I live in the UK) but they are wonderful. Equisetum (talk | email | contributions) 21:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

ah, yeah, the grape of Muscatel, favored by discriminating east coast winos. --Ludwigs2 22:17, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Muscat wines are great because they are invariably described as tasting "grapey", rather than tasting of wood or biscuits or having fish in the nose or something. It's nice to be able to agree with the wine buffs about something. 81.131.43.116 (talk) 05:48, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Because wine grapes and dessert grapes are usually different varieties, I vaguely seem to recall. Wine grapes are not nice to eat. I guess there may have been a bigger economic incentive to develope more varities of wine grape. 92.24.190.97 (talk) 23:14, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

My father used to make wine from grapes that he grew in our backyard. I, for one, would rather not eat one of those grapes. They don't taste anything like what you get in a supermarket. Dismas|^(talk) 03:36, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

FYI: In some places in California, they make white wine from red grapes - the trick being (I am told) to crush the grapes much sooner after picking (possibly even on the side of the field) - and to remove the skins as quickly as possible. SteveBaker (talk) 05:48, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

also FYI, such a wine is known in France as "blanc des rouges" as opposed to "blanc des blancs". (Apologies for atrocious French spelling - I did German at school!) --TammyMoet (talk) 08:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Blanc de noirs surely? Red grapes being, of course, black. DuncanHill (talk) 14:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes. It has little to do with the time of picking, but everything with getting the juice off the skins in time. In Germany, where we do not usually have enough sun to make great reds, one trick is to press off half the juice to make blanc de noir, and then let the rest ferment on the skins to make a much more intense red than you would otherwise get. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:03, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

The different varieties of wine is probably due to each grape-farm or vinery having their own label, at least apart from plonk. See Vineyard designated wine. 92.24.185.225 (talk) 14:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Do we have time for an anecdote? Twenty-plus years ago I was doing some winery-hopping in California, and purely by luck happened to visit Mondavi when Robert Mondavi himself was giving a talk to that day's visitors. I particularly recall one of his statements to this day: "You can make a perfectly drinkable wine out of Thompson Seedless" -- his point being, of course, that the skill of the vintner far outweighs the grape you start with.

Funny story, I thought. DaHorsesMouth (talk) 19:33, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Each of the differently named bottles of wine does not represent a different variety of grape. In European labelling (say French wine or Spanish) the more likely represent vintners, vineyards or specific blends of grapes. In the labelling of "New World" wines you are far more likely to see grape variety names (California wine). See list of grape varieties for many kinds of grapes for different uses. Table grapes come in many kinds but specific ones may only be available in limited area for short seasons. Rmhermen (talk) 05:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

The short answer to the original post is that if a farmer is offered $1,000 a ton for his beautifully ripe shiraz grapes, by a vintner intent on releasing the full value of their potential, he would be an idiot to take $200 (or whatever) from a store that would just dump them on the shelf next to the Thompson Seedless. (By the way, DaHorsesMouth, did Mr Mondovi ever explain why he paid many thousands of dollars an acre for prime Napa Valley land, when "You can make a perfectly drinkable wine out of Thompson Seedless"? )DOR (HK) (talk) 07:50, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

He may have been aiming higher than "perfectly drinkable." -- Coneslayer (talk) 12:11, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, there are plenty of different kinds of eating grapes, just as there are several varietals of just about any agricultural product. The store in your area probably just doesn't find it worthwhile to identify and label them all, which may have something to do with the varietals of grapes not being as distinct as, say, the varietals of apples or oranges when eaten out of hand. Consider this - apples range from sour to tart to very sweet, green to yellow to red, with different resistances to browning, and with other attributes that affect whether it's best for cooking, baking, or out-of-hand eating. Some are hard, some are more mealy. Grapes can vary in flavour, but not as much as apples, they're usually grouped into only two colour families, they don't have to worry about browning, are only rarely baked or cooked, and flesh consistency isn't a big deal. So, labelling your apples properly is worth the investment because your customers need to know so they can put their apples to best use. With grapes, people only seem to care about whether they have seeds or not - my local grocer doesn't make any attempt to even note whether they're supposed to be especially tart or sweet or whatever; people just expect grapes to be a little tart. Matt Deres (talk) 13:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually grapes are more variable: not only red, black, purple, green (aka white), but seeded or seedless, slipskin or normal. All apples are from one species while table grapes come from at least four different species and complex interspecies crosses of anywhere from two to eight different species. But what is available depends greatly on where and when you shop. My state is a leading producer of Concord grapes, but they almost all go into jelly or juice and Concords are fairly rare in the supermarket. But I have been told that they are common in East Coast U.S. stores. Rmhermen (talk) 14:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

None of which really contradicts anything I said. Separate species or not, people don't care so much about the grape variety unless they're going to press them. Nobody who eats grapes out of hand cares about whether they're slip-skin or not; it's not like with peaches where being cling-stone or not actually matters to the eater. Oh, there'll be the occasional special section for "globe" grapes or whatever, but stores throw all the, well, non-white grapes into a pile and call them "red". They do that because most people don't care very much - so long as they know about the seeds. It's similar to how stores often throw clementines, mandarins, and all other small oranges and orange-like fruit into one bin - if consumers don't care, they don't care. But consumers do care about the variety of apple - you can't switch granny smiths for golden delicious in your recipe because it won't work out right. Matt Deres (talk) 19:44, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

You must have a very different supermarket than I do. I have never seen more than one variety of grape or of orange mixed together. Nor any not labeled for sale with a variety name. I also don't see how slipskin is less of a difference than clingstone. Slipskin is so unpopular here, they are not even normally sold. Rmhermen (talk) 20:56, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

In my former line of work in the London Insurance Market, we used to deal with "raisin cover" which would pay out if California grape growers' crops weren't good enough to be sold as eating grapes but had to be sold at a much lower price to be made into raisins. Alansplodge (talk) 17:52, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

There are many different varieties of grapes used for sale with the intention that they are consumed. Not all are available at any given time because different varieties of grapes ripen at different times. This is important for food retailers, as it ensures the availability of stock at any given time of the year. Grapes used for the production of wine tend to be of the subgoup vitis vinifera. In this variety there are a number of different types, for instance cabernet sauvignon. This variety has been chosen and bred over time to produce grapes most suited to wine production. The reasons for this are that they have a high amount of juice content, as well as specific charactaristics that are attractive to wine producers, such as the amount of tannin, malic acid, sugar content, &c. These features are desired in wine production because they add to the overall flavour of wine and aid later development of wine character. Were you to try to eat, say, a sauvignon blanc grape you would notice that the taste of it is highly acidic. A cabernet sauvignon would be aggressively bitter and so on. Wine grape varieties are distasteful on the whole to consumers of fruit grapes, and would be excessively expensive to consumers, given that producers would make far much more money selling them for wine, than for fruit. There is also an element of tradition involved, in that farmers producing Chardonnay do so with the expectation that their grapes will be used for wine, and do not produce fruit for consumption. It is possible to purchase wine grapes directly from the estate producing them for verjuice or for the production of your own wine at home, but a nice bunch of Parellada after a dinner party would not go down well at all. Back to where I started from: there are many varieties available, although Tesco has thousands of stores to supply and requires consistency throught their estate so that customers buy the same product week in, week out. You might find that a better range of grapes would be found at Waitrose, though at a premium price. Grapes offered in their range are highly seasonal and change in their variety from month-to-month, therefore were you to find one that you particularly like it may not be available throught the year. --russ (talk) 00:44, 10 June 2010 (UTC)