Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 September 5

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September 5

"Clear Lake City and Houston"

Isn't Clear Lake City a part of Houston, Texas or could it be a city of its own. I keep on getting Johnson Space Center mixed up with Clear Lake and Houston. And I begin mixing Bay Area as a city of its own with Clear Lake, Houston, El Lago, and Seabrook. How can I make the difference? --Writer Cartoonist 00:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

To quote the first paragraph of the article Clear Lake City, Houston, Texas: Clear Lake City is a master-planned community located in southeast Harris County, Texas and is the second-largest master-planned community in Houston—behind Kingwood. The majority of the community lies in the corporate limits of Houston, while a small eastern portion is in the city limits of Pasadena. The Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center article says The center consists of a complex of 100 buildings on 1,620 acres located in the Clear Lake area of southeast Houston, Texas, USA. The article at Galveston Bay Area, says it is a "loosely defined region" with "NASA's Johnson Space Center [...] located in [its] heart". El Lago, Texas appears to be a separate city, as does Seabrook, Texas. Thylacoleo 02:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Student Policies and Laws

Is it against the law to hold a child after class during his/her break? I am asking because i would think that it is against the law to hold students against their own will, but have heard that the reason is because while a student is in class they are unable to run around and get exercise. the only problem is that i haven't yet found anything that supports either of these. 72.170.91.190 22:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)student72.170.91.190 22:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.170.91.190 (talk) 03:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC) 

We cannot offer legal opinion, see Wikipedia:Legal disclaimer. If you are concerned with the legality of being held behind after class, you could speak to a head-teacher, who should be aware of what he or she can and cannot do legally. Otherwise seek advice from a lawyer or citizens advice centre. Rockpocket 05:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

In state schools in the England and Wales, a minimum of 24 hours written notice must be given to keep a child after the end of a school session (there are 2 sessions a day). I am unaware of the rules for breaks within a session. The Advisory Centre for Education at [1] can give advice on the legality (or otherwise) of English & Welsh school disciplinary measures, and the Local Education Authority (normally the County Council or the Unitary Authority) would also be a good place to ask. It's possibly not a brilliant idea to ask the Head Teacher "Is it legal for you to do what you do?". DuncanHill 07:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC) Addendum My apologies, I misread the original question, and have amended my response accordingly. DuncanHill 07:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You should ask this type of question at Wikiversity, not here, as you will actually get an answer at that Help Desk: [2]. StuRat 06:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, not a legal opinion, but the situation in one state in one country (in the manner that I read the question it is a factual question about 'what is the law', not 'give me legal advice on how to handle this situation'). So, with that in mind, I know it is legal to keep a child during their breaks in Victoria, Australia. However there are limits on this, and actual local policies within schools would vary (but still have to be within the legal guidelines). The advice to speak to the Principal or some other senior person if you're interested in one particular school is valid, as they should know both the legal situation in your state/country, and the policy within that particular school. Or perhaps even better, enquire at your state/country Government Education Department (but they generally won't be able to give you local school policies). --jjron 07:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

See detention (academia). Is it true that is called "retention" in Oz, or is that a bizarre joke? And how come we can give ansewers on Wikiversity that we cannot give here?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Because it is not so carefully policed by people who want to avoid a) someone receiving bad advice b) getting in legal difficulties. It is a content fork of these desks really. Skittle 11:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

In the U.S., the legal status of students in school is complex. If you really need to know, talk to a lawyer. However, I think you need to step back and think about the situation at several levels, whether you are the student or the parent of the student. First, let's assume that the "punishment" was the result of a perceived "infraction." There are two completely separate issues:

• Is the punishment reasonable, given the infraction?
• Did the infraction actually occur?

Which of these is applies in your case? If you are not too embarassed to state it, what was the infraction, what was the punishment, and why do you think the punishment was too harsh? Are you objecting as a matter of principle, or tactically? Speaking only for myself, I will treat your responses with respect, whether you are are ten year old complaining about a 5-minute detention for an (alledged) missed homework assignment, or a high-school senior being detained to three months of one-hour study-hall for a missed essay. -Arch dude 02:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Name of interior parts in a car

Relevant photograph

1. What is the name of the part of an auto that shows P R N D 2 1 which is located underneath the DASHBOARD and above the STEERING WHEEL?

Tech manuals seem to call it the "PRNDRL display", after the positions. Mine notes 'L' even though the display shows 3 2 and 1.

2. Does the handle that is used to change among P R N D 2 1 choices have a special name?--71.105.30.63 05:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Gear shift select lever? --Mdwyer 06:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict):

1. Gear indicator, for example [3]
2. Gear selector or gear shift lever (see Automatic transmission). -- Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 06:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you.--71.105.30.63 06:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

We used to just call it the "prndl", pronounced prindle. Gzuckier 14:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Who are "we"? Dismas|^(talk) 08:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

A bunch of dorks. Gzuckier 14:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

And a bunch of professional mechanics. The engineers might call it the "transmission selection indicator" but us mechanics used to call it "the PRNDL" which rhymes with "spindle". 66.55.10.178

The impact of media on society and culture

A lot of negativity in the world today is blaming the media as being a large determinant in terms of its influence. If it is actually such a big factor, I'd like to study if it can actually be used as a positive determinant in the lives of people. I would like to know if there is any masters course that can be studied about this - and if so, where is it best available. So far I have come across the MA Critical Media and Cultural Studies, SOAS, London University. --Mithawilliams 08:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I think a fair few UK universities offer masters in meeja studies. Some little googling turns up a number. --Tagishsimon (talk) 09:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

UCAS has 971 media studies courses at about 80 different unis[4] (many as combined courses), and 2392 "general media" courses[5]. None of these offer Masters straight away; it seems that you first have to take a BA then reapply and take the MA. Be warned, though; Media studies has something of a bad press as a "mickey mouse subject" and many employers may not look too kindly on it. Laïka 10:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Daaaaaang

Why are there so few Google hits for this spelling of the word, with 6 as? I made a plot so you can see how much it sticks out. —Keenan Pepper 11:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry if this is a social faux pas here but I gotta ask.... Why? Why would this even come up? Why bother doing this research to begin with and then make a chart about it? It just seems rather pointless to me is all... Dismas|^(talk) 11:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Sheer boredom and perversion. —Keenan Pepper 18:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This is the most randomly hilarious thing I've seen in months.. That said, probably because six as just looks weird? --lucid 12:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

According to our (thankfully deleted) article on the "w00t paradox", the same thing happens when adding extra "0"s to "w00t"; it drops at around 5 or 6, then rises back again. Don't know why though. Laïka 13:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

There's no such drop for aaaaaargh, oooooops or wheeeeee. Capuchin 13:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Bananana

Bananana does the same thing, but at around 5 instead of 6, and it spikes at 7. Laïka 13:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure there's a thesis in this somewhere, any keen postgrads around? DuncanHill 13:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure there's some work that's been done on this already... :) Capuchin 13:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't remember the word they studied though! Damn it! Capuchin 13:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Here we go: [6] Check out "The distribution of variable-length phatic interjectives on the World Wide Web" and "Dissecting the argh-scape". The argh-scape article seems unfinished though. I'm sure I saw a more complete version of the argh-scape paper.. grrrr. (how about grrrrrr? :P). I hope this will kick off some of those better versed in google than I. Capuchin 13:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Magnificent stuff, thank you! DuncanHill 14:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Some people have Waaa(a)aaay too much time on their hands! SteveBaker 14:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This made me literally roll on the floor laughing. —Keenan Pepper 18:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't wait for Friday. --Dweller 15:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm right here, how can I help? Friday (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Phew! --Dweller 16:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

		The Barnstar of Good Humor
		I hereby award this thread a barnstar for being damn hilarious. Goes to show the spirit of Wikipedia-- doing together what would've been mediocre by a single one of us! lucid 16:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh my - an award for a 'thread'?! This is unprecedented. Well, we'll just have to share it - move it (carefully, they are quite fragile) from one User: page to another. Let's see: Dismas can have it on Mondays, Laïka gets it on Tuesdays, Capuchin Wednesdays. DuncanHill Thursdays, I'll take it on Fridays, Dweller gets it Saturdays. Argh - what about Sunday? OK - well, on Sundays in January and February, Dismas will look after it, Sundays in March and April go to Laïka, May/June Capuchin, July/August DuncanHill, Sept/Oct, I'll have it, Nov/Dec, Dweller has it. The only problem with that is that over seven years, there will be fewer Sundays in February than any other month - so Dismas will have to take all the extra leap-days for the next 17 years - after which leap days will be allocated to....wait a minute...I forgot Friday...no - not Friday, Friday. Damn! Now I have to start over... SteveBaker 17:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only one whose first thought on reading this was "Dinosaur Comics"? (Incidently, the link contains a rare example of a 6-"a"ed dang). Laïka 17:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You know something, Keenan. You underestimate yourself everytime.

the word daaaaaang should be one of the top hits on google web search, thanks to you...

By the way, why dang with six a s (as in apple)? Why not five or seven?

Wish you all the best,

User:Kushal_one —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.150.163.1 (talk) 18:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

What the !!! I signed the comment... if you are such a smart aleck, try signing this comment! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.150.163.1 (talk) 18:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This is why I keep coming here. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{talk • contribs}} 20:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I especially love the way Steve Baker takes some absurdly trivial question or comment and immediately turns it into a complex mathematical or logical problem and then parses it into the nth degree. Very amusing.--Eriastrum 22:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with lucid; this is one of the most hilarious things I've seen on this ref. desk for such a long time- It does deserve a barnstar!(^_^) --PolarWolf 00:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't claim originality on this one - I was thinking of The Simpsons episode when Bart and his friends have bought a hideously expensive comic book and are trying to agree how to share it. Still, I didn't go away completely empty handed ! SteveBaker 01:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Dweller's thread of the week. It's an 'out of the box' idea.

Congratulations to all contributing here. Unsurprisingly, given my comment above, you have won the third ever User:Dweller/Dweller's Ref Desk thread of the week award. Good job. Specifically, it's for the thread except for the bit where I lowered the tone. Anyway, well deserved. --Dweller 10:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey, jokes aside, this is very surprising. --Taraborn 15:07, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Village population in the USA

What is the maximum population that you can have for a settlement to in the USA be classed as a village —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.19.57 (talk) 11:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Village (United States) may be of some help to you as it varies by state just what makes a village a village. Dismas|^(talk) 11:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The page to this links says 2,500 people. There are plenty of Villages in New York. [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-1224%28194604%2911%3A2%3C159%3AHAVITU%3E2.0.CO%3B2-V&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage ] I've never actually heard of a village in the US. I think most settlements here are either unofficial, towns, or cities. But then, the link above has more info than I do-- unfortunately, it needs sources. --lucid 12:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Village is official in the US (in Michigan at least). I grew up in the Village of Empire (pop ~300+). We had a village hall, a village council etc. --Cody.Pope 12:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, villages are very common in the U.S. See the link that I posted above. And I grew up in one as well. Dismas|^(talk) 12:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

It's funny because I had never thought of small towns as "villages" until I moved from the West Coast to the East Coast. Now I see them everywhere. It is still strange to me — when I think of a "village" I think of some sort of Old World rural setting with thatched roofs and chickens running around, but that's definitely not what they mean in New York or Massachusetts (the two places I have lived where I have seen "villages" while driving on the highway). --24.147.86.187 15:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Just be glad you don't live in the UK, where things can be even more confusing; St David's is both a village and a city simultaneously! Laïka 17:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Some municipalities seem to hold onto the villiage name, just for the homey PR overtones of it. Vail, Colorado comes to mind. It is officially a 'Town', but they call themselves a 'Villiage'. --Mdwyer 21:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Then there's my favorite: The City of The Village of Indian Hill, Ohio. -- Mwalcoff 22:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Subdivisions of Champaign County, Illinois, include a township coterminous with and named for the City of Champaign, and an adjacent rural township also named Champaign. On my way to school I used to pass the first township's office, a little building mysteriously marked Town of the City of Champaign. —Tamfang 01:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

New York State has about 550 villages, which are legally defined municipalities. There is no maximum population, but there is a minimum of 500 people. See Administrative divisions of New York. --Nricardo 01:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

As all of the above posters are alluding to, there is no single definition of village (or town or borough or city, for that matter) in the United States. Every state defines them differently. In Pennsylvania, there are no legal "villages," even though the state puts up signs at the edge of a cluster of homes marking it as one. Villages are just concentrated areas within a township. But just across the border in New York, villages are legal entities. Just like townships — in the Midwest townships are basically square divisions for measuring land, while in the east, townships are incorporated with governments just like boroughs and cities. Lots of states have towns, but Pennsylvania strangely has only one town. ... So it isn't population that defines what type of community is what, it is whether it has definitive borders and what type of government it has. — Michael J 11:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

One minor correction... Several Midwestern states (including Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and Illinois) have civil townships as well as survey townships. But you've got the gist of it -- the semantics of local government is different in every state. -- Mwalcoff 00:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

KCTV

Randy Miller is one of Kansas City's most controverial talk radio personalities. He's been fired so many times from varies radio stations due to his choice of programming I'm sure no one will take the chance to hire him again. However, I was surprised to see him doing traffic reports during the weekday mornings on KCTV. I hadn't witnessed any wrong doing or controversial subject matter during his spots in the morning but now he seems to be gone and no one has said why. Is there anyone out there that can tame my curiosity on this matter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.247.222.30 (talk) 12:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You should read this article. It says that he gave up the traffic reporting on Aug 10th this year..."But I'm still doing the dating game show, and we're starting our second season." - there is more information in that article but you have to sign up to some free service or other to read all of it. SteveBaker 13:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

What is the difference between pepper spray and bear spray?

What is the difference between pepper spray and bear spray? I would assumed that bear spray is stronger, but the wiki article says that in many areas bear spray is legal while pepper spray is banned. Are the chemicals different or is it just the container design?

"In Germany privately owned pepper spray may fall into two different categories. Sprays that bear the test mark of the Materialprüfungsanstalt[12] may be owned and carried solely for the purpose of defense against animals. Such sprays are not legally considered as weapons. Sprays that do not bear this test mark are classified as prohibited weapons. It is nevertheless strictly prohibited to carry pepper spray at (or on the way to and from) demonstrations - whether it bears a test mark or not." --Jacobin1949 14:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

At least in the USA, the only differences are the size of the can and the label on it: bear spray is typically a 12-ounce can labeled "bear spray", while pepper spray is in a 2- to 4-ounce can labeled "pepper spray" or "mace". --Carnildo 22:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

American Pop-Culture T-shirts and the Swastika(lack there-of)

In my studies of WWII via Hitler's KAMPF and Shirer's RISE AND FALL 1/3rd through now, and living 2 blocks from MELROSE Avenue <--T-shirt & Shoe Central of the Los Angeles Shopping Arena, I'm stumped on a highly cultural question of Politically Correctness and just plain wonder. Before the question, I'd like to note what I see a lot of, and that is Imperial Japan's Rising Sun (i've seen slippers coined 'Kamakazi') as well as the Union Jack, also the Confederate Flag(some parts of the country), and lately THE HAMMER AND THE SCYTHE. I just saw one at Nordstrom's by Skate/Surf/Snow company VOLCOM of Stalin's colors. I'm not going to go onto death counts of the representations of these flags at the times of War with the United States., but I find it particularly interesting that company's don't market the Swastika. And if they did, it would shock me. Now that I'm shocked by it, and not the others, makes me even question that. Why is it that we do not see this in Multi-Cultural America, and yet there are all the other Oppressive States as Novelties? I hope for purely science-orientated-objectivism for answers, or at least trying to be. --i am the kwisatz haderach 16:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The obvious one would be that association with a logo synonymous with the holocaust is a step to far, moving from the attention grabbing into the distasteful, whereas the other logos associate with questionable groups and ideologies, nothing as distinct and horrific as the human rights offences committed by the the Nazis. ΦΙΛ Κ 17:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

If I had to guess, I'd say that with all of the other symbols, they had been in use both before and after the atrocities that those countries had participated in. It would be hard indeed to come up with ANY national flag that didn't have some kind of unpleasant associations. But the Swastika (at least the German usage of it) was only used during that brief era of horror - not before and not since. So we can see the US flag and worry about Iraq - or we can see it and remember Woodstock. We can see the Japanese flag and think of suicidal aircraft pilots smacking into the decks of aircraft carriers - or we can think of Hello Kitty (OK - bad example!)...but we can't see a Swastika without thinking of Hitler because it has no other associations. Just my take on it though. There may be other opinions. SteveBaker 17:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

There are approximately 1 billion people who may disagree with SteveBaker's assertion about the Swastika having no other associations than Nazism. DuncanHill 17:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I was VERY careful to say "the Swastika (at least the German usage of it)" - I'm well aware of the Hindu symbol (which actually looks totally different incidentally). SteveBaker 20:11, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

"but we can't see a Swastika without thinking of Hitler because it has no other associations"... in my experience in India, depictions of the Swastika vary enormously, including many versions which are largely indistinguishable from that used by the Nazis. There was a rather ill-tempered debate some time ago about the use of the Swastika on a Hinduism template on WP. DuncanHill 20:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't obvious to you that I was still talking about the German version? Come *on* - you don't expect me to type it all out in full every time I mention it do you? There is a common literary shorthand - you say something in full the first time and expect the reader to use his brain the second and subsequent times. Duh! SteveBaker 00:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not intend any offence, I was merely trying to suggest that the response given managed to exclude a significant proportion of the world's population. DuncanHill 00:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

note this bronze Buddha on Lantua Island [LANTAU BUDDHA, CHINA] <--the Swastika on chest, is not the different curved-lined Hindu version with the 4 dots, this is the squared-straight-line one that the Germans also adapted. I know strict Buddhist laws probably are against selling T-shirts at the giftshop, if there is one here. But it is the same fylfot. --i am the kwisatz haderach 21:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not the same fylfot. It's reversed. Corvus cornix 17:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

We have an excellent article on the Swastika, and its use in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, a synagogue, and numerous other contexts, including this picture which manages to combine a swastika with the hammer and sickle File:Nepal-Communist.jpg DuncanHill 17:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Another reason might be that the animus of the swastika -- Jew-hatred -- still exists in the world, while Japanese designs on ruling all Asia, Soviet designs on killing their land-owning classes, and white Southerner designs on keeping black people in chains (and limiting the power of federal government) have all been consigned to the dustbin of history. Nazi chic discusses the issue. --Sean 17:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think most people who wear the Confederate flag, the Japanese military symbol or the hammer and sickle necessarily identify with antebellum racism, imperialism or communism. The Confederate flag, while an offensive symbol to many, is considered by others to be a neutral symbol of the South or a symbol of rebellion against authority. The sun-with-rays, to some people, simply means "Japan." Those who wear the hammer and sickle probably just see it as Cold War retro and aren't aware of the inherent evils of Marxism-Leninism. The Nazi swastika, on the other hand, has only negative connotations. -- Mwalcoff 22:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

It has to do with who the various symbols are associated with today. The swastika is very strongly associated with neo-nazi groups: by wearing it, you're proclaiming membership in such a group. The Confederate flag is weakly associated with states' rights groups and racist groups (and rebellion in general), while none of the others has any real associations. --Carnildo 22:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I find it extremely offensive that the original question lumps in the Union Jack, the flag of one of your country's longest-standing allies, with flags associated with "Japanese designs on ruling all Asia, Soviet designs on killing their land-owning classes, and white Southerner designs on keeping black people in chains", let along Nazi Germany. 80.254.147.52 10:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree (and I'm British). We Brits have certainly committed our fair share of atrocities (our rule over India - wars in Africa, etc) - I don't think the Union Jack should be let off the hook. But then (as I said earlier), you'd find it pretty hard to come up with a flag that's more than a hundred years old that doesn't have some terrible associations for some people - and I include the present US flag in that list. SteveBaker 13:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you on the second point. But to suggest (as the question does) some kind of parity between Britain and a load of totalitarian regimes is a bit strong, to say the least. 80.254.147.52 13:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I find it a lot more offensive when the masses go along with the violence. When they are essentially forced into it by a dictatorship - it's a somewhat different matter. We shouldn't blame the Iraqi people for the gassing of the Kurds under Saddam - but when the British people were in full support of massacring tribesmen (armed with spears and cow-hide shields) using modern artillery - that was a very different matter. Modern Britain is a fairly peaceful, sane place - but our history is hardly spotless. SteveBaker 14:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Put it this way. If the question had been posed by a Briton, and had said "I'd like to note what I see a lot of, and that is Imperial Japan's Rising Sun (i've seen slippers coined 'Kamakazi') as well as the US flag, also the Confederate Flag(some parts of the country), and lately THE HAMMER AND THE SCYTHE", would that have passed without comment? I think not. The question would immediately be discredited by American patriots, and you'd be bringing up the massacres at Sand Creek and Wounded Knee. But stick the union Jack in the list and no-one bats an eyelid. Bloody Americans (in every sense of the word "bloody") 80.254.147.52 14:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I live in Texas (and I'm a Brit). I think you are hugely overstating this - I agree that there are people here who will defend the US flag (and I mean the actual piece of cloth, not just the concept) to a ridiculous degree (from a Brit's point of view)...advocating the passage of laws to make it illegal to burn one in a protest march or even to toss one away in the trash when it's worn out. (Worn out US flags are supposed to be 'retired' with a proper ceremony.) Some people go so far as to object to the US flag being used on 'disposable' items such as clothing and packaging on the grounds that the image would not be properly 'retired'...I think most Brits would laugh at those ideas - we don't particularly care what you do with the flag - it's just a symbol and a piece of cloth. But I would say that those Americans are a small minority - even in Texas. Americans with even a moderate degree of intelligence (such as the majority whom you'll find here on Wikipedia) tend to have a more nuanced view and I doubt that many of them would try to defend the actions of the USA as being in any way 'better' than the actions of the British over the last few hundred years. Both nations have had their moments of shining glory - and also periods of extreme nastiness. SteveBaker 15:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Just by-the-by, the proper way to 'retire' a US flag is to burn it! FiggyBee 05:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes - but you have to salute it, maybe bring an honor guard of boy scouts to the ceremony - worship it some first...maybe sprinkle goats blood...then set light to it - you probably have to scatter the ashes on consecrated ground at midnight or something. It's not like you can just toss it onto the barbecue and throw gasoline on it. My old, faded Union Jacks get unceremoniously dumped into the trash can. (I hang one outside my house - three feet higher than my neighbours US flag just to annoy them - there is some stupid rule that says the US flag has to be hung higher than all the others...sheesh!) SteveBaker 14:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Pedantry Alert I just felt I should point out that it is a sickle not a scythe in the flag of the former USSR. DuncanHill 14:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Great point on the American phraseology of my question. I agree with you one hundred percent. If I was a Brit, in Britannia, I would definitely say 'the US Flag', and being in the US, in a way, I did mention one of our flags (General Robert E. Lee, which many Americans are proud of, including myself, although I am against Slavery of any kind). I'm just questioning the novelty of novelties, rather Novel-Tee's. At the rate of American T-shirt Consumerism, it would be safe to say, considering we walk away from Operation Iraqi Freedom victorious, then the skater kids of lets say 2010 will be skating down an Orange County street with an Iraqi Flag T-Shirt. I don't take away from the atrociousness of Nazi Germany by questioning the swastika, but the lack there-of, and the personal feelings I feel when I see one, namely pain and heartache, and I'm not Jewish, but that I feel sadness by it, and none of the others, well, it makes me question it even more. I don't really have a good answer, and I think many here are great answers. Question away, wikiquestion away. Ahh, a new day, more questions. --i am the kwisatz haderach 15:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

What is this salad dressing???

I'm having some problems remembering what this salad dressing is called. It contains salted anchovy fillets, black olives, olive oil, a little vinegar, some ?spices. It's all ground down to a runny paste in a pestle and mortar and sprinkled onto a leafy salad. I saw Rick Stein (English TV chef)make it a couple of weeks ago, maybe it's good for the memory;-)) Richard Avery —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.48.100 (talk) 18:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Tapenade or (more likely) Anchoiade? This book extract explains the recipies for both. SteveBaker 00:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes!! tapenade is the word but anchoiade is exactly what he was making. Thanks Steve;-)). Now, where's that mortar and pestle... Richard Avery 05:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

My wife (who actually knows this stuff) says that anchovies are an optional ingredient in tapenade. If you put the anchovies in then it's an anchoiade (which is therefore a kind of tapenade). So either word will do although anchoiade is more precise. SteveBaker 13:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Ahaa!! behind every successful man...........Richard Avery 18:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Magazine pull-out posters

What's the best way to pull out a "pull-out" poster from a magazine without ripping the poster or breaking the magazine's binding? In this particular case, the magazine and poster are held together by staples. — Kjammer  ⌂ 19:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Use a small tool, for example a scredriver (not your nails) to lever the staples open. Remove posster and squash staples flat again. -- SGBailey 19:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The correct tool being a Staple remover of course! SteveBaker 20:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I find finger nails work better. DuncanHill 20:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Only if they're very sturdy, which varies from person to person and day to day. Don't stab yourself under there, though. It hurts like death. --Masamage ♫ 20:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd use needle-nose pliers. —Tamfang 01:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I find that you can gently tug it down unhook and then back up and unhook with some magazines. Other than this the above suggestions work well ny156uk 20:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Only subscribe to magazines with Rubber Cement Adhesive attached posters. It's the way of the future. --i am the kwisatz haderach 20:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you all for your tips. I used a Phillips head screwdriver (a flathead was not available) and one of those twist ties that bind coiled wires together. Fortunately the posters were attached with only one staple. I will keep these suggestions in mind in the future. — Kjammer  ⌂ 23:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Mita DP 580 Laser Printer

Hello. Five years ago, I was printing, using the Mita DP 580 printer until I used up all the toner. I had trouble finding a replacement cartridge. Just out of curiosity, do I replace the cartridge or the toner? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare 20:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

A quick Google seems to suggest that this printer uses all-in-one imaging units -- that is, a cartidge that contains an imaging drum and toner. You may be able to find support, still, though Konica Minolta --Mdwyer 21:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I clicked on both hyperlinks, both claiming that they both merged into one company called Konica Minolta. Five years ago, they existed as two separate companies. How can I receive support today? --Mayfare 02:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Just because two companies have merged doesn't automatically mean they drop support for products from the two previous companies. Since it's an old printer, they may have dropped support for that reason, but maybe not. Go to their web site and look for a search option where you can type in your printer's model number. StuRat 04:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

If it is a replaceable cartridge and you can't find a replacement, then you may be able to recharge it with toner. However the imaging drum inside will be made rather cheaply and will start to show signs of trouble eventually so don't plan on being able to recharge it a large number of times unless you are prepared to live with gradually degrading print quality. There are many companies out there who will refill and renovate your toner cartridges at less cost than buying new ones. I did a Google on 'toner cartridge mita' and there are a LOT of hits from companies that offer that service. SteveBaker 15:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again:) --Mayfare 01:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

top speed reverse

Having just chuckled to myself at the stupidty of one of the characters in 2 Fast 2 Furious handbrake turning and then reversing at (seemingly based on being on a 'highway' and not being overtaken) 60mph it got me wondering...What is the top speed an average car would do in reverse gear? I'm guessing something as low as 25mph but don't know. Anybody? ny156uk 23:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, my car (a MINI Cooper'S) has the same gear ratio in 1st gear as it does in reverse - since the engine only cares a teeny-tiny bit (due to cooling airflow) whether you're going forwards or reverse - the car will do the same speed in reverse as it does in 1st gear. So my car will theoretically go at 44mph in reverse (as stock) and a little over 55mph since I did various exciting things to it under the hood. That's not true of all cars. The 2004 MINI Cooper with the continuously variable transmission has a software speed limiter to prevent you from going more than about 5mph in reverse (which can be bloody annoying!) because the rather strange transmission of that car doesn't like being driven backwards. Personally, I don't want to be driving my car at 55mph in reverse! But it does prove that in 2F2F (where we assume cars are tricked out to an even greater degree than my MINI), going 60mph in reverse is far from impossible - it is in fact, VERY possible. SteveBaker 23:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

On NOTORIOUS B.I.G. video with PuffDaddy called 'Hypnotize' there is a scene where both B.I.G. and P.Diddy are driving a Mercedez Benz in reverse at High Speeds per Camera-POV, although I'm gonna say they are only going about 20 mph, maybe 35 off camera. Although, in truth, it was probably hitched to a truck pulling it at 25 mph. I don't think this elaborates, just another example. --i am the kwisatz haderach 00:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah - sure, I don't believe the actors in 2F2F were truly driving the car as 60mph in reverse - there is no way they'd do something that dangerous on a movie set. I'm only saying that my car could theoretically drive 55mph backwards - and the kinds of super-tricked out monsters they were supposedly driving in the movie should make 60mph easily. I don't think they really did it - but it's possible for a moderately tricked out car to have done it at the hands of a mythically great driver - which means that this particular movie moment is believable (the rest of it though...meh). SteveBaker 01:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

A British engineer called John Dodd fixed up a car in the 1970s called 'The Beast' with an aircraft engine and some Rolls Royce externals. According to a story that did the rounds in the 1970s (I heard it in the school playground a few times; it may well be an urban legend) it "did 200mph on Germany's autobahns" and "he was arrested for doing 80mph in reverse". There's a bit of discussion about it here: http://www.migweb.co.uk/forums/car-talk/167947-john-dodds-%22-beast%22-any-info.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 10:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

There was at least one historical automobile transmission that implemented a "reversing gear" that was separate from the rest of the gearbox rather than closely integrated; it could manage all the same speeds in reverse that it could manage in forward. I'm sorry, but I don't remember what car used this gearbox.

Atlant 13:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I seem to remember a Smokey and the Bandit movie where Burt Reynolds did highway speed in reverse in order to be able to hand a six-pack of beer to a fellow motorist out of his driver-side window.  :) --Sean 13:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure - you are probably thinking of the DAF 600 - it had a Variomatic gearbox (an early continuously variable transmission) with a separate reversing gear. This quirky transmission did all sorts of other strange things - perhaps the most disconcerting of which is that if you are driving fast - with your foot pushed to the floor on the gas pedal, taking your foot gently OFF the pedal would actually make the car go faster!! This is a lethal thing if you don't know about it! Members of the DAF car club in Holland celebrate the reversing gear wierdness by having races in which the cars all have to go in reverse! This was also the case on most steam engines since they typically don't need a gearbox at all, they needed a special means to go backwards - so quite a few of the early steam cars would go just as fast backwards as forwards. Also check out the Bond Minicar - they used motorcycle engines and transmissions - so no reverse gear. To get around this, they had one model where the engine had to be stopped and started again in the reverse direction and another 3-wheeled model where the single front wheel could be turned 180 degrees around like a Bumper car so that the car would go backwards. In both cases the car would go just as fast backwards as forwards. SteveBaker 13:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Cheers for the responses, some good knowledge. ny156uk 21:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Lats & Longs For Cities

I've noticed lats & longs for cities in Wikipedia. For example, the lats & longs for New Orleans, according to the Google map link, is to be east of Elysian Fields and south of Claiborne. I thought they would be within the Vieaux Carre (French Quarter), especially Jackson Square, or at the location of City Hall, at 1300 Perdido, near the Superdome, for New Orleans. I was surprised to see where it actually plotted out. They were right on the money for Nagoya Field, in Japan. How are lats & longs chosen by Wikipedia for a city?Rossbarranco 23:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC) Ross Barranco

Same as all of Wikipedia's other content: by well-intentioned, usually (but not always) accurate volunteer editors.

If there's a coordinate you think could be improved, you certainly can!

With that said, there are some additional wrinkles in the way data like this is typically added to Wikipedia. Some of it is bulk-added from other databases (such as the ones at http://geonames.usgs.gov/ and http://www.nima.mil/), and if the coordinates in those other databases are coarse-grained or carelessly-chosen, they're not going to map to an "obvious" focal point.

Also, some of the data (I think) is imported from associated projects such as http://www.placeopedia.com/ and http://www.wikimapia.org/. —Steve Summit (talk) 03:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone think this might be a good idea for a Wikipedia guideline — to set a standard for how to indicate a city's lat/long? (Some atlases I've seen place the reference at city hall; others take the geographic center.) I'm sure there are several possibilities, and we obviously can't make it policy, but a guideline should at least be discussed. Maybe I'll throw this up over at the help desk. — Michael J 12:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Either take it to Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates, or have a look on there. I think this issue has been settled by that project; hopefully you'll find documentation & advice there. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates#Precision says that the larger the object is, the less precise the coordinates should be. It's a bit misleading to say that a city is at XX.0235456 N when XX.02 N would be equally true. --M@rēino 19:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)