Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 October 29

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October 29

Why is murder in Pakistan virtually non-existent?

List of countries by homicide rate lots of issues | leave me a message 00:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There are probaly alot more murders then that. Most likely very few are reported and statistics have to go on by what is reported Birthday sig-leave some love 01:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Birthday sig-leave some love. They are probably not reported because of lack of confidence in the police. Why bother if the cops can't or won't do anything? Also, the national government has little control over large sections of the country, in particular the tribal areas. Clarityfiend 07:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed that the homicide rate in Pakistan is probably under-reported for all sorts of reasons, but to say that "the national government has little control over large sections of the country" is surely an exaggeration ? The Federally Administered Tribal Areas are only 3% of Pakistan by land area and only contain 2% of the country's population. Gandalf61 11:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Between questions of "What percentage of murders are reported by the general public to the local police?" - and "What percentage of murders that are reported to the local police are ever officially noted at central government level?" - and "Does central government answer truthfully when asked by the United Nations?" Between those things, I'd be very surprised if any of the bottom three countries are giving even remotely true figures. I'd bet good money that Japan is actually the lowest. SteveBaker 16:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Murders committed in tribal conflicts and/or by the Taliban may not be reported or may be classified as something other than murders. I wouldn't trust the numbers reported by Burma either (they must exclude monks and others murdered by the government). StuRat 19:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Establised users

Does anyone know the criteria to be an established user? (regarding locked pages).--DarkZorro 00:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Four days with the account. But that's for editing semi-protected pages. To edit protected pages, you need to be an administrator. See Wikipedia:User access levels#Signed-in users. A.Z. 01:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Hotel Housekeeping

For anyone that knows what can the average room attendant, front desk person or housekeeper make in a hotel. When looking at classifieds in my local paper i can never find the salary they pay you. I am thinking of getting a job in this field for a while.--logger 01:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I would say that it can vary geatly. It depends on where you live, what you do at the hotel, and what kind of hotel it is. It could go from minimum wage at a small motel to a very good salary at a more upscale or fancy hotel. Grango242 01:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

You can also check Salary.com here to get a general idea of average salaries in your particular area. Josborne2382 02:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I will check the website out. thank you for your time.--logger 02:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

No Problem, that is what we're here for! Good luck in your search! Josborne2382 02:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Trees

I have a cottonwood tree on my acreage with a circumference of 13 and one-half feet...I was wondering if anyone could give me an estimated age of the tree? 4.254.80.9 02:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)Roger

The only real way I am aware of is to get a core and count the growth rings. See Tree#Oldest trees and the references for that section. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 10:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a graph of age to diameter for cottonwoods at Yellowstone here on PDF page seven. You can see that the growth rate varies a lot by the tree's location. If you extrapolate even the lowest of the lines, though, your tree starts to look right venerable. Your county agricultural extension might have age-to-diameter data for local cottonwoods that grew in conditions similar to yours. --Milkbreath 11:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

• I can't resist linking this wonderful word: dendrochronology. --Sean 14:40, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Is this considered a *factual* error?

OK, I'm not sure exactly how to classify this question, but here goes...

For several weeks now, I've been trying to get Encyclopedia Britannica to change or remove a line from their Scottie Pippen article at EB.com. The line reads, "He was perhaps the only man on that list [50 Greatest Players in NBA History] to be considered the second-best player on his own team, but Pippen's future was likely to be bright even if Jordan followed through on his rumoured retirement." My argument was that there were several sets of teammates on the list besides Jordan and Pippen, and that people like Kevin McHale and James Worthy were also considered "second-fiddles" on their respective teams. (McHale to Larry Bird, Worthy to Magic Johnson, etc...)

Britannica responded that the statement was not a factual error, per se, apparently because the author uses the word "perhaps". Do they have a valid defense? The sentence is not simply an expression of the author's opinion, since he also uses the word "considered". Thus, I interpret it as a conclusion based on the opinions of other basketball fans and experts - a conclusion that is flawed, as anyone who does some research will see. Zagalejo^^^ 05:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

How can it be a factual error when it is not and can never be a fact, only an opinion? Clarityfiend 07:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not comparing my personal assessments of these players against Britannica's. I think you can reasonably conclude that McHale was never considered better than Bird by the general public, excluding perhaps individual games. McHale himself admitted such in interviews.

Again, the key word here is "considered". I don't care who actually was second-best, but I think one can make objective statements about who was considered second-best.

But more to the point, isn't unwise to say that Pippen was the only player considered second best on his team when there was more than one set of teammates on the 50 Greatest Players List? Indeed, as many as four players on the list (John Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Bill Russell, and Sam Jones) were on the same team at one point.Zagalejo^^^ 07:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Now that I think about it some more, it should be deleted simply because it is unverifiable and therefore unencyclopaedic. However, if you asked for a change on the basis of it being a factual error, that would have been the wrong argument to use, for the reason I noted before. Clarityfiend 07:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, well, would it be a factual error to say that "Citizen Kane is perhaps the worst-reviewed movie of all time"? Zagalejo^^^ 07:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

You're making me think too hard this early in the morning, but now I'm coming around to your side. The original claim isn't really an opinion, it's a (qualified) statement of fact about an opinion. And it's plainly wrong. So, IMO you do have a valid argument. Clarityfiend 08:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it can be a fact, but as already pointed out it is a pretty loose fact because it contains the word 'perhaps'. How can it be considered valid, certain and verifiable if it contains a conditional word. Surely the Encyclopedia Brittanica is all about certain and verifiable facts, not possibilities and opinions. Having said that there are people who consider, for example, the Theory of Evolution as an opinion. Richard Avery 08:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Semantics and encyclopedics aside, if there is a defined set of 50 players, several of which were seen as second, third, or fourth fiddles in the shadow of their team's top-of-the-cream player, then the quoted sentence is entirely misleading, in any type of text. For "evidence" you could draw from the wonderful American tradition of Basketball statistics, or from NBA awards, polls and so forth. The way I read it, the category "to be considered the second-best player on his own team" also implies "not the best", including "third-best", "fourth-best" etc.), but even if not, it's too defined to allow the author to weasel his way out with precious reference to the word "perhaps". ---Sluzzelin talk 11:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

You have just found the reason why everyone reading and writing to this page uses Wikipedia. SteveBaker 15:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. :) Thanks for the replies, everyone. Zagalejo^^^ 18:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Sportsmen

In my youth, 50 or so years ago, to be a member of a UK cricket team, say for example, the MCC, (Middlesex Cricket Club), one had to be a) British and b) resident in Middlesex. This principle applied to many clubs, cricket and football. When and why was this policy abandoned?--212.139.103.15 07:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&action=edit&section=59 Editing Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous (section) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Our article on Northamptonshire County Cricket Club says "After the Second World War, Northamptonshire was quicker than many other counties to adapt to a more professional game. After more bad years in the late 1940s, it recruited widely and wisely from other counties", suggesting the culture changed sometime after the War. This is elaborted on in Rain Stops Play (2002) by Andrew Hignell (ISBN 0714651737):

"After the Second World War... many counties trawled outside their catchment area and scouted in other counties. But an approach to a young player living and/or born in another county could only be made after obtaining permission from that particular county club. To avoid poaching, most counties today have a lengthy list of registered players and no county is permitted to approach registered players. Those who are not registered,... born in a minor county, plus those born outside the UK but who hold British passports are "free game" for the talent scouts of the first class clubs"

Of course this (being written in 2002) was probably impacted by the Kolpak ruling, with regards to international players, but may still be accurate with regards to those born in the UK. Rockpocket 07:49, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the rapid response--212.139.103.15 11:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)!

Stinky Chinese shops

Why some products in those Chinese shops that sell every kind of item at a low price (at expense of quality usually) smell so bad? --Taraborn 12:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Even assuming good faith this sounds prejudiced. I am not sure how you equate smell with product quality or nationality of goods. To the best of my knowledge these factors do not contribute to odour. You might want to read the article on odour or perhaps visit your local fish shop and take a few deep breaths. Lanfear's Bane | t 13:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps they were selling durian, which is an ... ahem ... acquired taste. --Sean 14:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I've noticed that the brown paper towels (unbleached) you get is washrooms often have a nasty smell to them, as do paper bags for groceries, especially when they get wet. Perhaps they use the same type of paper in those Chinese shops. StuRat 19:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The smell is usually to do with the food section. The array of spices and ingredients used in authentic Chinese (and other East Asian) cooking is quite different to those used in Western cooking. The smell can be somewhat offensive to people who haven't grown up with them. The smell of a food market in China is very offensive to many people when they first encounter them, but many people who grew up with them and moved to Western countries say that they miss the smell, because it reminds them of home. I'm told that the smell of lamb being roasted is quite offensive if you're not used to eating it. I think it smells great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steewi (talk • contribs) 03:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I knew some people won't understand my question and will assume this is a "prejudiced" question (I'm sure I'm the least prejudiced person in the world, by the way). Unfortunately, I can't smarten other people, so we'll have to get over this. I'm not talking about food shops, I don't know how you call them (or whether they exist or not) in the US, but here (in Spain) they are called "Bazar + <insert Chinese-related name here>", e.g. "Bazar Hong Kong". Some of their items, for example some of their slippers, have a nasty smell. That is, perhaps, due to the bleaching or the material they use, who knows, that's why I asked. I was just curious because that smell is really characteristic of those shops, and I have never found that anywhere else.

PS:I like the smell of Chinese food. --Taraborn 10:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Improperly tanned leather can smell of chemicals and/or rotting meat, is that it ? StuRat 19:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

shrinking old jeans?

Hi, Is it possible to shrink a jeans that is several months old by immersing it in hot water?. Adding vinegar will accelarate the process? Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.220.149.186 (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but how much shrinkage you will get depends on if they have already shrunk in previous washes. If by "several months old", you mean you've been wearing them and washing them, then there probably isn't too much shrinkage left. Prewashed jeans seem to have relatively little shrinkage after purchase, too. StuRat 19:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Baseball rules

1) What and how does a "no decision" work?

2) Is catcher the hardest position to "play"?

3) How do the sports casters know what kind of a pitch a pitcher pitches when he throws the ball?

4) When was baseball invented? By whom? How did he (or she) think up the rules and game?

5) Why are Yankees so in the hole and bos red sox so on top now?

thank you for your help!

a red sox fan forever! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.181.51 (talk) 15:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

2. Pitchers usually play less innings than a catcher so does the catcher work harder or the pitcher (who needs to rest after a shorter time).

3. They watch where the pitch goes and how it breaks.

4. See History of baseball (and don't blame Abner) Rmhermen 15:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

1: A "no decision" is roughly a starting pitcher who does not get a win or a loss, and it's more easily explained in terms of what those are. A win is awarded to the pitcher who was the "pitcher of record" when his team took the lead for good. A loss, similarly, is awarded to the pitcher responsible for the run putting his team behind for good. A starting pitcher who earns neither a win nor a loss is said to have a "no decision", and relief pitchers (though they can also earn wins and losses) are generally not part of the "no decision" discussion.

2: Different positions require different skill sets. Rmhermen notes the pitcher/catcher distinction above, and similarly, center fielders and catchers are likely to be poor replacements for each other. While the catcher's posture is considered to be physically taxing (particularly on the knees), it's not clear that this would equate to the position being hard to play.

5: Such things are the purview of sports bar arguments; there is no objective answer. — Lomn 16:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

For number 3, the sportscasters, in this case usually the colour commentators, know because they are usually former players (and sometimes former pitchers) who know what each pitch looks like. Occasionally the cameras can pick up the pitcher's fingering on the ball before or as he is throwing it, which also helps distinguish what kind of pitch it is. Adam Bishop 17:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Long Island over 3000 square miles?

On the main page today, you listed 3 US islands over 3000 square miles in area. Your Long Island article lists Long Island as being over 3000 square miles in area. I think the area estimate in the Long Island article needs to be corrected. Can you claify this discrepancy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.249.110 (talk) 16:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Questions of fact about the main page should be asked on the 'discussion' part of the main page in order that they may be corrected quickly. I suggest you do that - and also mention your problem on the List of islands of the United States by area discussion page. SteveBaker 16:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

(Actually, since this is somewhat urgent - I've added a complaint to those pages myself). SteveBaker 16:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe the issue has been resolved. In addition to posting replies at both locations, I also left a thank-you note on the user's talk page thanking them for bringing the issue to our attention. --Kralizec! (talk) 18:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Pulpit Commentaries

I have a set of Pulpit Commentaries. They were published by Funk & Wagnalls Company and some were published by Wilcox & Follett co. of Chicago. The editors are Very Rev. H.D.M. Spence, D.D. and Rev. Joseph S. Exell; M.A.

I cannot find thier publication date. When did Funk & Wagnall purblish them. My Genesis volume says New Edition.

Please respond as soon as possible.

Mike Talley

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.96.225.72 (talk) 16:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

E-mail removed. Lanfear's Bane | t 16:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Black Flowers Anyone?

Are there any flowers that are truly black and not just a dark blue or purple? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.144.1.100 (talk) 16:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

According to this page they exist, but are rare. Of course, it depends how you choose define "truly black." Our article on Black Rose (symbolism) suggests there are no truly black roses. Rockpocket 18:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Grevillea scortechinii subsp. scortechinii — Black Grevillea.Polypipe Wrangler 09:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

There was a famous struggle by Dutch growers to develop a black tulip, which inspired the Dumas book The Black Tulip. I believe they very nearly got there in the end. There are also some very dark red roses which are so dark that they are called black, such as the Black Baccara. Xn4 02:08, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Illustrating Rockpocket's first sentence – When my black cat is backlit, I can see that his fur is really merely brown. —Tamfang 23:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

HOW TO EXTEND A CATEGORY ?

Can anybody tell me how to extend a category for instance Category:Lists of scientists. I would like to add a group : Matematicians, where later one could add the names. When I have th page with Lists of scientins and push the button "Edit" there is no possibility of adding any new group. Krzysiulek 16:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Add your new category to an article. Click on the (red) category link at the foot of the article. Add the category you have just created to whatever you consider the parent category to be, by placing a category link in your new category page, exactly as you add categories to articles. That, in a nutshell, is it. And try asking these sorts of questions on the HelpDesk --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Category:Mathematicians already exists, btw. If you wanted make it a subcategory of Category:Scientists (which you shouldn't, because mathematicians are not (necessarily) scientists), you would go to Category:Mathematicians, edit it, and add Category:Scientists, like Tagishsimon said. FiggyBee 17:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Frankfurt

There is a square in Frankfurt where there are a number of statues, can anyone tell me the names of the people represented there. Specifically there is a stautue of a man who has a very large forked beard. I wish to know who he is, and any of the others. I am not sure exactly where this is in Frankfurt, but when I went there a few years ago for the city's birthday, there was a medieval fair in this particular square. Thanks12.191.136.2 17:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Is this the dude (http://www.flickr.com/photos/51243943@N00/383910676/)? If so there is text about who it is. The guy you mean may be Karl Der Große ? ny156uk 18:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Also known as Charlemagne (Karl the Great). Nice beard. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

So why is he holding an ostrich egg with a leather strap around it ? :-) StuRat 19:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Globus cruciger Rmhermen 19:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The strap makes the egg a little less likely to break, of course. —Tamfang 02:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

It also acts as a disguise so the ostrich won't recognise it and try to get it back. SaundersW 17:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Living in the States

I've never been. Can anyone who lives / has lived there tell me about some of the best cities to live in? I appreciate that the subject of "what are the best cities in your country" is a complex one, but draw on personal experience and reccomend me anyway. I am particularily keen on places that have areas of town with thriving music and art scenes that are generally safe and decent places to live (low-income, probably rented apartment or something similar). Portland, Chicago and New York particularly interest me because they're big cities on the coast and I'd go insane if I wasn't near a large body of water.

I am planning a short visit to the States, probably New York, for next year with some friends. This is really just getting a feel for the character of major US cities, the American way of life; I'm not about to rush off based on a decision made from Wikipedia. I would value personal opinions of the cities I mentioned greatly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.145.45 (talk) 19:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Id suggesst Baltimore, Maryland, Great food people are nice have the most awesomest accents and the music and arts is good here. Its got a harbor near the national aqaurime and a science center with all boatds loads of other shops stores and historical landmarks. One downside is that its not what you would call "Safe" though. Dam i love baltimore ForeverDEAD 20:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure that visiting New York City will give a feel for the typical U.S. major city but as a Midwesterner, we have a certain bias against the coasts. New York would fail the affordable housing issue as perhaps would L.A. Rmhermen 20:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

How about Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, Miami, or Honolulu ? All have thriving music and/or arts (but of quite different types). BTW, what do you want a large body of water for ? If you are planning to swim in it, I'd go with Miami or Honolulu, as the water in the other cities mentioned is too cold. StuRat 20:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

People swim in L.A. (and the earlier mentioned Chicago) Rmhermen 20:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm SF or LA just doesn't appeal to me in my mind, mostly because of the weather. I just want the sea nearby because otherwise I don't feel comfortable - I was born by the sea and I plan to die by the sea. Yes, I know - you don't need to tell me I'm COMPLETELY INSANE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.145.45 (talk) 21:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Weather in San Francisco is very different from that in Los Angeles (and for that matter there's considerable variation within each region), although both generally have dry summers and wet winters. What is it about them that you don't like? —Tamfang 02:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm assuming you mean Portland, Oregon, not Portland, Maine. The former is not particularly close to a large body of water, although the Columbia and Willamette Rivers do provide a fair amount of aquatic recreation opportunities. There's a nice "Bohemian" feel to many parts of the city. The latter Portland is right on the Atlantic Ocean, however I don't think it is particularly well-known for music and art. Down the road just a bit is Boston, but along with New York and Chicago, it does not meet the "low-income" guideline very well. North of Chicago, Milwaukee has an extensive art and music scene and is on the same large body of water as Chicago. Austin, Texas hosts the SXSW music conference each year, but fails on the water front. Philadelphia might be a good choice, with several great museums and the World Cafe (hmmm, not a great article there), but might be getting a bit expensive once again.

By the way, there's no single "American way of life" and what you experience in any given city will differ what you experience in another, and both of those will differ greatly from the experience of living in a small town. --LarryMac | Talk 20:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

But don't forget, Austin TX does have Lake_Travis . dr.ef.tymac 13:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, yeah, I meant Portland, OR. The East Coast cities are the most tempting - loads of large cities full of people, and the climate suits my tastes. I appreciate that major cities are comprised of a wealth of different cultures and lifestyles, the phrase just popped in there really. I'm interested in case examples of what particular things attract people to life in big cities and what negative aspects exist, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.145.45 (talk) 21:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe consider one of the smaller cities in the northeast, for example New Haven, Connecticut. It has a lot of great neighborhoods, it is the home of a great live music venue (Toad's Place). It's got Yale University. It's an easy train ride to New York City, or a slightly longer trip to Boston. I lived in Connecticut for most of my adolescence and several years beyond that (albeit not in New Haven), and would move back in an instant if I could. --LarryMac | Talk 18:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that New York would be the best city to live in. Philadelphia, Boston, Miami, Baltimore, and Chicago are all cities that I would recommend if New York doesn't suit you. I can't say anything about the west coast because I've never spent a lot of time there. Grango242 22:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I've heard that in New York the difference between safe and unsafe is taking a wrong turn. Since I like to explore I didn't visit New York, despite passing right by it. That was the only time I didn't visit a place for reasons of safety, and I've traveled quite a lot. San Francisco was nice. Good cultural scene and some beautiful nature not too far away (by US standards). And is the Pacific big enough for you? :) Concerning the cultural variation in the US, New England is said to have a more European feel to it and Boston is known for its liberal attitude (in the positive broader sense of the word). Then again, I've never been there. Plan to one day, though. DirkvdM 10:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

NYC is actually fairly safe compared to other big American cities, although it really depends on the neighborhood. But there's no American city that doesn't have its shady areas. San Francisco has its "unsafe" neighborhoods, too. -- Mwalcoff 01:48, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Neither New York nor San Francisco is going to meet the affordable category. Los Angeles has parts that would, but not those close to the ocean. All things considered, Austin, Texas would be the best place for arts and affordability, but it isn't near an ocean. Houston might qualify, but the heat of summer may not meet your needs. If you don't mind extremely cold winters, Chicago may be your best bet. East Coast-wise, Washington, DC would be good, but within the District of Columbia, security may be a problem, although Georgetown is safe. Corvus cornix 17:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Being a mid- westerner i'm going to say that chicago and minneapolis both have pretty good art and music scenes. Minneapolis is a little more affordable than chicago but chicago has a much better public transportation system. Minnesotans are acutally "minnesota nice" too so it should be easy to get to know people in Minneapolis. Neither are by an ocean though so you probably wouldnt like either city. And safety, like any other city, really depends on what part of town you live in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.232.161 (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, since you already know english obviously you might want to consider going to New York, but not in the manhattan area. The jobs pay good, but if your just starting out, you might want to move in the Queens area. Maybe someplace like sunnyside (were i grew up) or astoria, which are only a couple of train stops away from the city. Another place you might want to try is Florida, CLOSE to the Orlando area. You really don't want to live in Orlando, they have good jobs, but its really hard to find a decent house or apartment. Try an area around it instead.--Dlo2012 00:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I've lived in Chicago, rural Tennessee, and Vermont. I'd personally suggest Burlington, Vermont going by your qualifications. It's right on Lake Champlain, it has a number of clubs and other venues for music, it's only of the more artistic places in the Northeast, if not the country, and it has a very low crime rate. Artists from the area include Woody Jackson and Stephen Huneck (hmm... we don't seem to have an article about him, so here's a link http://www.dogmt.com ) Dismas|^(talk) 03:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I grew up thinking no one in their right mind would want to live in New York City. Then, by an unforeseen turn of events, I ended up living there for about five years. Now I think I'm lucky to have had this experience. Among the cities of the United States, New York City is in a class by itself. Even five years living there only scratches the surface. There are only a handful of cities in the world that are comparable in terms of energy, culture, vibrancy, and that strange sense of always turning a corner and seeing something world-famous. Of cities in which English is spoken, I'm not sure anything other than London compares. It's image of having a crime problem and being dirty and unsafe is, I think, somewhat of a holdover from the 1970s. Of course there are shady places and the occasional scarily crazy person, but I generally felt safer alone at night on the streets there than I do in downtown Seattle or Boston. Yes it can be expensive, crowded, and chaotically difficult, but if you like art, music, and culture, and the energy of big cities, no other US city comes close. The place is bursting with art and music. I routinely found myself wandering into inspiring artistic events and places. On a random visit to the (now gone) World Trade Center plaza I found there was a free, outdoor Phillip Glass recital going on. I went to a chamber music recital on a barge near where I lived to hear some John Zorn music to find Zorn himself was performing, along with, oddly enough, Milton Babbitt and other "avant garde" composers. At one point they engaged in a debate over the differences between "uptown music" and "downtown music" (Babbitt being uptown, Zorn downtown, while another musician described herself as a "crosstown composer"). The Metropolitan Museum of Art is by far the most enjoyable, inspiring, and (this last bit is key) comfortable art museum I've been to. For cutting edge art, the city is filled with galleries. I spent countless days randomly poking into one or another, discovering some of the most inventive artworks I've ever come across. Perhaps the city's artistic peak was in the 1970s, but it is still strong. I've long thought it somewhat equivalent to Paris around 1900-1910 in terms of art. The main challenge, perhaps, is finding housing you can afford. Compromises probably have to be made. Through a bit of luck and a friend's tip, my friends and I found a crazy, quite spacious, half-falling down, warehouse loft, run by shady landlords, in the now-gentrified, hip, and expensive DUMBO neighborhood of Brooklyn. At the time it was a kind of 19th century warehouse industrial wasteland, but very close to Manhattan with great subway access. In other words, the city is known for expensive housing, but with hard work and maybe some luck, it can be done. Myself, formerly uninterested in New York, now think it would be a shame to live life without spending some years living there. Five years was almost, but not quite enough. I'm happy to now live somewhere else (Seattle), but often think fondly of New York and miss the many many aspects of the city one cannot find anywhere else on the planet. Pfly 07:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Pfly's woven a very engaging description, but no matter where you live, there's always trade-offs to consider. Living in NYC is not going to be very special or rewarding if you spend half your day in a cubicle and the other half in a cramped and noisy apartment where you can barely sleep. You can do that in *any* US city.

Also, the 'crime problem' is alive and well. There are whole industries of crime that occur *only* in NY, and your exposure to it varies depending on such factors as your pecuniary resources, familiarity with the "machinery" in relevant neighborhoods, social standing and other things as well. Unless you are among the Sheltered Sons of Pure Opulence, living in the radiance of the absolute Best means living within the shadow of the absolute Worst. dr.ef.tymac 14:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I got a little carried away, sorry. A great place to live depends on so many factors, not only about the place but the person. Will a particular person like a particular city? "It depends". Anyway, since the OP said "the States" we've been mentioning only US cities. The Canadian cities of Toronto and Vancouver are both worth a mention, or at least a visit, if possible. Pfly 20:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

And if we are opening it up to Canada, I'd recommend checking out Halifax as well - it's on the water and nowhere near as insanely expensive as Vancouver. (Ottawa is also worth a look.) - Eron ^Talk 21:07, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Longest Article Title

I was just curious to the longest title of an English wikipedia article would be. I know of From each according to his ability, to each according to his need, and I was maybe thinking that this was the longest, but then again, maybe it wasn't. The title can include multiple words. Sseballos 21:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia records, for all your record needs. Rockpocket 21:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

So that would then be Dante And Randal And Jay And Silent Bob And A Bunch Of New Characters And Lando, Take Part In A Whole Bunch Of Movie Parodies Including But Not Exclusive To, The Bad News Bears, The Last Starfighter, Indiana Jones And The Temple Of Doom, Plus A High Scho. The title should be even longer - it's incomplete because of technical limitations. DirkvdM 10:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

This is a question we get asked a lot; the longest proper titles (ie, ones that don't redirect,) are United States Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on International Development and Foreign Assistance, Economic Affairs, and International Environmental Protection and How Hedley Hopkins Did a Dare, robbed a grave, made a new friend who might not have really been there at all, and while he was at it committed a terrible sin which everyone was doing even though he didn't know it, but see also Most of the Remixes and When the Pawn. Laïka 13:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

In fact, see User:Interiot/Reports/LongTitles. Laïka 13:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

It's worth mentioning that the MediaWiki software (which is what Wikipedia runs on) doesn't allow more than 255 characters (some say it's 256 - I forget which) in the title of an article - so we aren't ever going to see any longer than Dante And Randal And Jay And Silent Bob And A Bunch Of New Characters And Lando, Take Part In A Whole Bunch Of Movie Parodies Including But Not Exclusive To, The Bad News Bears, The Last Starfighter, Indiana Jones And The Temple Of Doom, Plus A High Scho. SteveBaker 17:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Scrabble: The PC game

I have a copy of this game. All info I have is that it is a Hasbro product, and it has a artificial intelligence, will NOT allow players to "cheat" at all. 65.163.112.74 22:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Any cheat codes for the PC game, and why is Wikipedia NOT accepting any edits, except to the "History section" instead of where edits are supposed to go ? Maybe the tech boys need to look @ that. 65.163.112.74 22:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

MY copy has this shape shifting object in the top right corner of the screen that will insult you, most of the time, called "Maven". 65.163.112.74 22:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting and all, but where's the question? FiggyBee 15:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Cheat codes for the game ? 205.240.146.157 22:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Lurking deep in there is the question- 'why is Wikipedia not accepting any edits,except in the History section'.It doesn't specify whether it's the Scrabble article,Scrabble:The PC game article or all articles generally that have this glitch though... Lemon martini 10:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably the DB was locked for a minute. Wikipedia was obviously accepting edits when the OP posted their question... FiggyBee 21:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikitravel gone?

What happened? --Sobra23 22:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

What exactly is wikitravel? --PolarWolf ( grrr... ) 22:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[1] --S.dedalus 23:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention Wikitravel.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)