Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 January 29

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January 29

Editing a Page

How do I edit a page and put a table of contents in it and put sidebars in and all that stuff?

A table of contents will automatically be generated once there are four sections to the article. See WP:TOC for more on that. The sidebars you're probably referring to are known as templates. There are many templates that can be used depending on what kind of article that you're working on. I suggest that you start with the help pages at Wikipedia:Help. And for further questions regarding the editing of articles, the Help desk is for questions about Wikipedia itself. This Reference desk is normally for questions about things outside of Wikipedia. Dismas|^(talk) 03:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

How do I delete a page?

How do I delete a page I already created? also, how do I rename a page title?

In order to delete a page, you can put "{{db-author}}" at the top of it if you are the only person who has made edits to the article in question. To rename a page, you would have to move it to the correct name. See WP:MOVE for more on that. For general help information, please see WP:HELP. And for future questions about editing Wikipedia, the Help desk is the best place to go. This Reference desk is normally for things that are outside of Wikipedia itself. Dismas|^(talk) 03:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia stuff

http://newsbiscuit.com/article/judge-directs-scary-obsessive-towards-wikipedia

Always a happy place! Wikipedia. --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 00:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that... Now I'm wondering what that says about me... But did you have a question? Dismas|^(talk) 01:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

If your question was about the accuracy of that article, let me reassure you that the source is not a real newspaper but a parody news site. No scary obsessives have been sentenced by a judge to edit Wikipedia. All our scary obsessives are volunteers. -FisherQueen (Talk) 01:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't notice that the first time, because the article wasn't really very funny, or particularly hard to believe. But then I noticed a link in the sidebar to an article on how Blair was going to make the Iraq war "carbon neutral". --Trovatore 07:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It was the 'Pensioner admits they didn't have it better in his day' that clued me in, and the 'Jade Goody to be hanged in Iraq' that cinched it. Anchoress 07:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

OK the really funny thing about this is that I had a stalker who was almost exactly like the Carl Petersson of the article. Apparently my stalker has a Masters in Elizabethan playwrights or something, I should direct him here. Anchoress 06:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"it’s hard to know which of the many people on the Star Wars discussion board are actually female." Awesome. V-Man737 10:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

In future, might I suggest the WP:Village Pump as the place for this sort of thing? Or possibly the refdesk talk page, if you specifically wanted to point this out to the refdesk community? Not wanting to be a killjoy, but it makes it easier to keep other off-topic discussions off this page if we keep them all off. Kind of like a bar asking that nobody wear a hat. Skittle 16:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Mexico City

Hi, guys. I will be leaving at the end of this week for Mexico City, my first visit there, where I will be spending the best part of February. I would be grateful for any inside information any of you may be able to supply-where are the hot spots, cold spots, places to go and places to avoid? Some information on good restaurants and the night life would be a help. I will be staying in the Zona Rosa, if that's any help, though will obviously go wherever necessary. Also, I will be travelling out from a wintery London, and was hoping to get away with my summer clothes, but I understand the Mexican nights can be quite chilly. Should I take a coat? All advice gratefully received. Clio the Muse 01:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I've had some delightful vacations in Mexico City in February. It is cool at night and in the morning. Not as cool, though, as London in February. (Typically, around 8 C at the first light of dawn, but between 10 C and 15 C by the time most tourists venture out.) When I have gone, I have brought a spring/autumn jacket, and that has been sufficient. You might also bring a sweater so that you can double up (sweater plus jacket) if it is unusually cold and/or for your trip to and from Heathrow (or Gatwick). On the other hand, it is often quite warm, or even hot (around 25 C) during the afternoon, and the sun is typically scorching because of the altitude and latitude. Unless you have very dark skin, bring sun screen, as it may not be available or may be overpriced in Mexico .

I assume that you have a guidebook and know not to carry valuables, especially not on the subway/underground, and to sit in cars that are full but not too full, with your purse or backpack firmly closed or tied shut and in front of you where you can see it. Also, avoid the ubiquitous VW bug taxis, some of which are driven by armed robbers. If you want to take a cab, call a (more expensive but safer) radio taxi, or hire a cab at one of the cab stands for the regulated and safer cabs. A Lonely Planet Guide will give the latest tips on safety.

For transport, I had good experiences with both the metro/subway/underground and the peseros, or minibuses, which are a good way to reach places not near a metro stop. If you speak a little Spanish and have a sense of directions, just stand on the side of the major street running in the direction you want to go at a pesero stop and ask people how to get where you want to go. People will tell you which one to take, and if you need to transfer.

I strongly recommend the National Museum of Archaeology. Also, don't miss Diego Rivera's murals in the Palacio Nacional. To me, the most enjoyable neighborhood is Coyoacán, particularly Plaza Hidalgo, with its street musicians, Frida Kahlo museum, people watching, good restaurants, and generally wonderful atmosphere.

Also, you absolutely must make the excursion to Teotihuacán. It is really spectacular, particularly the climb to the top of the Temple of the Sun. I recommend taking the public bus from the main Norte bus station (accessible by metro) instead of the overpriced turista coaches that charge ten times as much for the same trip and insulate you from interacting with locals.

¡Buen viaje! Marco polo 02:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, if you expect an area to be rather slummy, by all means avoid it. Mexico's drug trade is getting dangerous, so watch out, and have a fun time. ;-) The velociraptor 03:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Great response, Marco Polo. You make me want to go there! Anchoress 06:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's WikiTravel's article on Mexico City[1]. Vranak

www.tripadvisor.com is a very good site for people's recommendations of places to stay, places to go and attractions etc (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Tourism-g150768-Mexico-Vacations.html) is a Mexico page result. ny156uk 17:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, one and all. This is very much appreciated. Clio the Muse 19:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

A couple other points. I'm sorry that I did not mention restaurants or night spots. My last trip there was three years ago, such places tend not to be "in" for very long, and to be honest, I don't remember names of places I went. But I found them in a guidebook, and I remember that several of the meals were wonderful. Also, I have one more tip, regarding Xochimilco. The standard thing for tourists to do in Xochimilco is to take a trajinera (covered boat) from the Xochimilco village landing, typically with a mariachi band on board, and travel a very short distance through a canal filled with other trajineras and tourists and mariachi bands. You will embark briefly on an island filled with stands selling cheap souvenirs. This excursion has some campy, festive appeal, I suppose, but when I visit a foreign city, I want to experience an environment that does not revolve around tourists. I was much more satisfied with an excursion in a trajinera through the Parque Ecológico de Xochimilco, 1-2 km to the north of Xochimilco village along the Anillo Periferico Oriente. Here is a link. Some sources say that these trajineras travel only on weekends, but we went on a weekday and had a trajinera and the whole park to ourselves. You will see how chinampas, the basis of Aztec agriculture, are built and maintained, and you will travel along beautiful and very peaceful waterways that are a welcome break from the noise and frenzy that is Mexico City. Marco polo 19:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

TigerDirect.com

Does anyone one happen to know the location of any tigerdirect.com warehouses in the northeast. I have checked their website and it tells only about the retailers Naperville, IL warehouse, however it also said it has a couple other distribution centers but does not specify their location. Any help would be nice.--Biggie 02:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you really want to deal with this company? I checked out the last external link in the Tiger Direct article - lots of customer complaints. Clarityfiend 06:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I have already bought a computer from them i believe that most customers complaints have been coming from the companies small gadgets.--Biggie 08:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, a large percentage of their customer complaints have to do with problems encountered when buying computers and other large items. After I figure in shipping, convenience, wait time, customer service, and the like, I always end up buying locally. Saving $20 isn't worth it if I have to spend 3 hours on the phone waiting for assistance. --Charlene 04:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Best Place to Buy a Used Car in Europe

I am going to live in Europe for the summer and wish to buy a cheap used car for that time. Which West European country is the best to buy such a used vehicle in?

• The country you're going to stay. Getting a car across the border involves too many fickle rules. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Check that you will be allowed to buy a car without an EU residency. If you can, and insure it properly, there will then be no problem crossing borders. But you will have to re-sell it in the country of purchase. Fiddly isn't it!90.4.253.79 16:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)petitmichel

Assuming the country itself does not matter, for example, would Greece or Belgium generally be cheaper?

Although life is generally more expensive than in most other European countries, second hand cars in the UK are quite cheap especially for classics and pre 70's cars. Whatever country you want to buy it in just have a look on eBay on each national website (it's not that hard to find your way to the Dutch or Polish Motor eBay) you can compare prices and chances are that's where you'll find your gem. Anything directly north of the Netherlands will be more expensive than the average. If you decide to start your journey in the country where cars are the cheapest (a criteria like any other i guess) my bet would be on Eastern Europe. I hope you know what to look for when buying a used car though since not speaking the local language might not play in your favor in the transaction. Good luck if you need any. 87.64.176.170 01:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Anything directly north of the Netherlands will be more expensive than the average.? That may have something to do with the fact that cars don't run very well in the North Sea. - Mgm|^(talk) 10:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Right I meant Germany. [2] 81.243.179.62 12:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Time shown in every Clock

Why is the time shown in every clock around the world, as an advertisement is, always 10 past 10.

Most people say that it's so that the hands don't cover the clock maker's name and logo on the clock face. We used to have an article about it at 10:08 but last I looked, it was deleted. I believe there's still info about it at http://www.straightdope.com/ though. Dismas|^(talk) 09:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep, here ya go... http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_330.html Dismas|^(talk)

Amazing - this is the third or fourth time this question has come up on the Ref Desk in recent months, the most recent being here. The way I see it, the frequency of its appearance is an argument for the reinstatement of the article, its lack of verifiable facts notwithstanding. Guess that makes me an inclusionist. Ah well. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought the same thing but didn't say it. I know I've seen it asked her at least twice since that article was deleted. Dismas|^(talk) 11:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Putting a bit of my Goo Fu to work, I did come up a definative answer here with links to RS quoting Timex. So go for it. PS - "frame the maker's name" is a nice reason along with symmetry. --Justanother 14:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Ten past ten is also a Happy Face.90.4.253.79 16:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)petitmichel

seeking love advice (long)

Now come to the other side of the story. The vital part of my life. My college life was going fine. There were many friends of mine. They like me, most of the teachers knew me by my name i.e. a great achievement for a student. Even the non teaching staff means the higher authority also know me by my name.

During college life Snigdho and Anand regularly come to my house. To meet with me, to talk and discuss the problems of college work.

During January we were having our college annual function so I was busy in preparing for one of my play which I had written. I was directing the story. The teachers liked the story and allow me to go ahead. During the rehearsal period I met with many students from 2nd and 3rd year.(I was in the first year). I make friendship with them. I was a great experience working with the seniors. I was becoming hero because I was a student of multicharacter(I play cricket and that year we won the college trophy, I direct a story which is written by me, and I also know playing mouth organ, and last but not l least I was a good student) these characters had impress many 2nd and 3rd year student

After the function bad patch of my life start. I failed to make a position in the college during my final exam. I don’t know but something happened to me and it changed my life.

It was mid april(I think so) I was getting attracted to an another girl. But the problem was that she was already engage. I don’t know why it happened, that girl was already engage and still I was getting attracted to her.(actually I was getting attracted from the very first day) Gradually days passed and I was becoming closer to her(the second one). She is a good friend of mine. I was getting interested in her. During that period I came to know her life story. She was beautiful gorgeous and I think that her strong determination has impress me. She is very simple. I was very much confused because I don’t know which one I will opt( the first one or the second one). I left it for god. Let god will decide which one he chooses for me. It was really confusing for me because I don’t know which one is true and which one is just an attraction. But gradually I was getting closer to the second one. I think that god has chooses second one for me. But the main problem arises here that I cant told her that I love her, because I was a good friend and I fear that If I told her about my feelings I may lost the friendship. We spend good time in talking and knowing each other. She is very warm hearted, any one can make friend with her. She is very fine. She can believe any one very easily that’s why she was betrayed many times by her friends. What I know is that we have to believe on persons because there is no other way to live in this world but we have to identify them that whether he is correct or not in a very small span of time. Because if we take time in identifying good or bad then the relation may slipped out from our hand.

(Zindagi ko sahi tarike se jee lena chahiye or who bhi bahut kam samay par kya pata kal ho na ho! Aur sahi galat ka faisla humse nahi hota hai to phir use bhagwan par chhor dena chahiye. Sab kuch uski iccha ke anusar hota hai).

I love her very much. Still I m saying that she is very good friend of mine but now the friendship has grown so much that I cant live without her. Few days before according to me the definition of love is : love is a feeling which stars from our eyes born from heart and ends with life. But now I feel that love is beyond life it doesn’t ends with life. If this is true love then I will find her in my next birth and I m sure she will be mine. I have heard from many sources that true love never succeed but I will prove it false and I will wait for the time being come. I loved her so much that I can leave her for her happiness. And if such time come that I have to leave her for her happiness then I pray to god that from that day “I don’t want to live any more you just take me away”. I don’t know whether she love me or not but I will love her forever. I will wait for her. (Yeh kasak dil ki dil mein chuppi rehe gayi , Zindagi mein tumhari kami rahe gayi. Ek main ek tum ek deewar thi , Zindagi aadhi aadhi bati rehe gayi Zindagi mein tumhari kami rehe gayi. Maine roka nai who chala bhi gaya, bebasi door tak dekhti rehe gayi, zindagi mein…. )

Oh! God I can’t live without her so please tell me what should I do? Now I m feeling very upset. In my life I have never been so upset. I m fed up with this college life. I m not getting interested in anything. This year I didn’t participated in any sports, I didn’t participate in any function. I was mentally very strong, during my school days whatever the decision I have taken for myself is my final decision and no one can change it even my friends, but she is the only person to whom I cant refuse her, whether it is correct or not.

I m very optimistic but in her case I always fear of loosing her.

Oh god please helps me, please, please, please help me. I m loosing everything, my personality, my carrier, my ruling nature, everything. If any one told me which one will u opt first, carrier or _____ , then I will say carrier but think, a person has a good carrier and then he comes to know that he has no heart in his body. A person with out a heart is meaningless, so she is my heart. I can feel her every time; every time she breathes I can feel her. When she will stop breathe, my breath will also stop.

Today I m feeling so upset that I feel she Is not made for me. So I have taken a decision. I will leave everything. Means to sever all the relations with my friends. But how do I tell “her” to cut off all the relations from me, because I have promised her that I will not let her disappointed from my side. Then how it is possible. When I tell her to sever the relation then she will ask me the reason, which I can’t tell her. I think I have to take help of anand or snigdho. I will tell them that “you go to her and tell that I m very bad, I have many relations with other girls, I m not less than a criminal, friendship is just a joke for me, I m a play boy, etc like that”. At least for my carrier and my, parents who r expecting a lot from me.

I don’t know how much I m going to live. Because I have told earlier that a man without a heart is meaningless and she is my heart. So after departing from her I don’t think that I will be able to live more. I love her so much that I can’t express it in my words. I will always love her and I will love her after my life ends. She is everything for me.

One day I think that I have to leave everything and I have to stop talking to her. So I didn’t talk to her one day, but next day I cant stop myself and I talk to her. So tell me how this is possible to leave her. I m unable to think anything except her. She is my life, I love her, I love her a lot, I love her , I love her, I love her so much that I ……………. No words to express love. Actually it is a feeling which generate in us automatically. Suppose there is a both sided love (true love) then it is not necessary to express the love, it will automatically come out. Both the partner will understand the feelings of each other. Love is not to be done it happens, so tell me what can I do if I m in love and the other one is not accepting me? It is not my fault. Whatever is going is due to the almighty god. Oh god please help me. Please, please, please help me. I m very much confused. Show me the way

Tell me what should I do?

I am afraid that the Wikipedia reference desk is not a good place to seek relationship advice. Unless I am mistaken, none of the editors has the necessary psychological expertise. That said, based on some years of experience, I would say the following: 1) Although you are in pain, it will pass. The pain of frustrated love requires time to heal. If you move on, the pain will subside, over months. 2) Do not abandon your friendships. They are important to helping you move on and to your mental health. 3) Focus on something else. It sounds as if you are young and considering a career. That might be a good place to refocus your energy. 4) If you are in love with, or attracted to, someone who is not available, it is probably best to avoid contact with that person until your feelings subside, since seeing that person will only renew your anguish. Marco polo 15:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It's also very difficult for us to help you because I think you are from India, while most of the people who answer questions here are from Western countries where customs surrounding love and relationships are perhaps different in some ways. However, I would like to make the following suggestion as something you might think about. Why don't you tell one of your friends - Anand or Snigdho - what is bothering you? One of them can maybe explain to the girl you love what the real reason is you cannot see her anymore - and they can almost certainly give you better advice than we can. Skarioffszky 16:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It may not seem like a good idea but i actually come on here for advice like this. It is sometimes better to get a wide variety of people trying to help you than ppl who think roughly the same like many friends do. I can tell you I am close to your age or at least seem to be and i just went through a rough patch like this. i learned that from what I am doing right now ithurts a lot but it is always better to be honest. i hate it as well and iknow that as you are reading this is does not sound very nice to you either. But trust me..it always pans out better the more you are honest. I am forcing myself to stay at a distance from the person I love right now until this all passes. i suggest that you might do the same. Time can heal this. it hurts everyday but it begins to hurt less and less with each passing day. I have learned at least that much. Come to grips with reality..what you CAN have and what you CANT. You seem really confused but just remember..youre not the only one. We have all been through something and trust me..you will take something out of this. Just keep holding on.--Kittycat rox 19:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

We cannot give relationship advice or do counseling here because we do not have the qualifications and because typing things into a computer is impersnal. Speak to your doctor or a counselor at your school if your feelings for someone are causing this much distress. A caring friend or friends may be able to help direct you to sources of good advice. Do not take any drastic or irreversible actions until you have sought out counseling. Edison 22:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Wait, is the one you're in love with the engaged one? If so, you're just going to have to cut off relations. If not, just marry her already --froth^T 05:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Help me find an old football club

I am trying to trace an old football team in particular, one from what would have been Cheshire. The time period is c1890 and the team I am interested in is called Temple Rovers. They are from Birkenhead, now on the Wirral, but back then, it would have been Cheshire. Maybe they were just a sunday league or maybe they were a works team. In fact I know very little about them.

Any information about them would be greatfully received. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.110.173.24 (talk) 14:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

I suppose this is a football (soccer) club in Great Britain? 惑乱 分からん 15:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Marco polo 15:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Assuming that you have done a Google search and turned up nothing, you are unlikely to find any information online for something so old and local. Your best bet would be to contact a local library in the hopes that they have microfiches or crumbling paper copies of "popular" (cheap) local newspapers from your time period in which the team might be mentioned. Or, local histories might just mention the team. Another route could be to visit old-age homes and ask if any of the oldest local residents (90s or older) remember their fathers or grandfathers having mentioned the team. Marco polo 16:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Is there any chance that this might be a nickname for Tranmere Rovers F.C.? Back then, they played at a ground which although named Prenton Park was based on Temple Road in Birkenhead. Warofdreams talk 02:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Anniversary of Thomas Paine's Birthday 1.29.1737

Can you tell me please how I could ask that Thomas Paine's Birthday, celebrated around the world, could be listed in the Anniversary section? He is the unsung hero of both the American and French revolutions, confidante of Ben Franklin. His writings and beliefs formed the skeleton of the Declaration of Independance. As the unknown true Father of the United States of America; should not this native Britain be included in your Anniversary section?

My Best,

Katy Kleinhans Houston, Texas [Email removed]

Hi there. Mr. Paine's birthday is included in our full list of events for this date, found in the January 29 article. To learn more about the process for selecting which events go on the Main Page each day, see Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries. -- SCZenz 16:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and if you're interested, the usual term for someone from Great Britain is 'a Briton' :-) Skittle 18:41, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Apropos Thomas Paine, I just saw La nuit de Varennes on DVD. Nice movie. 惑乱 分からん 22:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"Paine Day" might be quite popular, especially with the S&M crowd. :-) StuRat 11:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Quote from movie or tv show

I can't remember where this quote is from: "If you run away I'll kill your sister."

A quote very much like this appears in The Green Mile (film).

Wild Bill Wharton: You love your sister? You make any noise, you know what happens. I'm gonna kill her instead of you. Understand?

later

John Coffey: He kill them wi' their love. Wi' their love fo' each other. That's how it is, every day, all over the world.

Atlant 17:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Improving the quality of my voice

I have made a brief recording of myself and uploaded it to . I would interested if anyone could give me any advice on improving my voice, both in terms of timbre and sound (e.g. richness and pitch) and in terms of clarity (apart from the obvious 'slow down'). Examples of what I consider to be 'good' voices include those of Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellan and Christopher Lee (I realise that they are all actors and that they have been properly trained and I have not). If it helps, I am a 14 year old male with a Northern UK accent (in my opinion, better than the south UK accent). Thanks for any advice. --Catalyst2007 18:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd say you're still young enough to go the same path as the three guys you mentioned - train your voice. --Ouro 21:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It's fundamentally no different from improving your golf swing. If, when you speak, it comes out sounding a bit flat, say it again. Clearing your throat or having a glass of water may help. Vranak

Well but it does help if you have someone look at your technique, if you train incorrectly you can actually do more harm then good to your technique. Ask at your school if there is any voice or vocal training. If not, look up vocal training online and start taking it seriously, if you keep at it for more then a few months maybe you can convince your parents to find you a tutor, if you get bored with it then it's probably not that important to you. Vespine 21:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Definately worth getting some actual advice. For example, clearing your throat in the wrong way can damage your vocal chords. Skittle 22:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice everyone. I don't think I'll bother with a proper tutor or course, I was just wondering if there were any quick and easy ways to make my voice sound that little bit better. Talk to you later (did you see what I did there?). --Catalyst2007 22:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest trying to increase your awareness of what you are doing when speaking. Who you are speaking to? What message are you trying to convey? Are you saying it in a convincing manner, with emphasis on the right words? The recording gave me the impression of someone mumbling in a microphone, with no particular purpose, and I had to play it twice to catch what you were saying at the end of the recording. Try recording your voice, while reading something interesting from a book to an imaginary audience that you are trying to fascinate. To increase the sonority of your voice, you might want to learn singing. You might also listen to a recording of someone whose voice you like, and analyze exactly what it is you like. And you might try to imitate the recording. Good luck! --NorwegianBlue ^talk 22:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Whoa! That's a shed load of really good information that I hadn't even thought about there. Thanks very much. I must try that. --80.229.152.246 22:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Demosthenes trained himself to speak well with stones in his mouth. WARNING don't blame me if you choke. meltBanana 23:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

A good microphone, Voice-over or radio voice may be very different from a good speaking voice, and what sounds good on tape might well seem artificial, affected, and forced if you spoke casually in person to someone in the same way. I think of Ted Baxter, ham TV personality on a fictional news program on the old Mary Tyler Moore TV show, or Gary Owens on the Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In TV show. With a voice recording, the visual cues are absent, so the voice may be forced to be unnaturally smiling, stern, or pompous. A video recorder would be a bit better, but it might still seem like a public personna which was developed, and an artificial or phony effect might be developed. I expect that a salesman, preacher, or politician, might develop such a public personna or image. Be aware that every one I know when they first heard themselves on tape, said "I don't really sound like that do I?" A voice coach of some type might be able to advise you. Margaret Thatcher reportedly altered her regional accent to be more accceptable nationally in her political career, so perhaps that is something a voice coach could address. It is possible to sound more mature through voice training. Police and military leaders work at developing a "command voice." People acting on the stage learn to enunciate and to project. You could learn to speak with received pronunciation whan you wanted and turn it off when you didn't, although that article says it is losing favor today. It all depends on what you wish to achieve. Edison 23:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

My voice teacher advised his students to drink some citrus juice (lemon, orange, grapefruit, etc.) every morning to get rid of phlegm, among other things. V-Man737 00:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• Singing may help with breath control ,projection and phrasing,get out there on the old karaoke nights.Otherwise a local amature dramatic group.hotclaws**== 02:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

How is love and relationships treated in the west

To what extent do western movies portray the extent of realism about the Western Love life and culture?

Where is the limit drawn?

What exactly is the purpose behind the American Dreams?

Garb wire 19:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Western movies vary. Some are reasonably realistic; some are not. They tend to idealize romance in a way that is not realistic. Real relationships are more complicated than most movie relationships. I'm not sure where you are from, but I'm not sure that most Western movies are more realistic than, say, Bollywood movies.

As for your other questions, I'm not sure what either of them is asking. Which limit do you mean? Which "American Dreams" are you referring to? Marco polo 20:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

What you have to understand is that the movie business in the west is exactly that, it is preliminarily a BUSINESS. Therefore, the movies that tend to get made are movies that "movie producers" think will get people into the cinemas. It's not about making documentaries about love life and culture, it's not even about making realistic portrayals of them, it's about making movies that people will buy tickets to see, which actually tends to be the opposite, unrealistic movies with fantastic plots and over the top characters. But that's what it is about and few people are under any other impression. Asking Hollywood to make realistic movies would be like asking McDonalds to make a home cooked meal. Some indy movies like Sideways get made, which are critically acclaimed for portraying real characters and settings, people with flaws and relationships that don't work out, but they tend to be the minority. Vespine 21:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Nah Hollywood has been responsible for many wonderful 'real' movies, indeed many are based on real-life. What 'gets people to buy tickets' varies from group to group. The biggest movies of history are some of the most critically acclaimed, and vary from outright fantasy-stories like Forrest Gump to dramatic portrayals of a real-life story The Pianist. They reflect 'reality' in a different way. They don't reflect exact reenactments of what happened, but they reflect the sentiment, the cultural traits and the shared dreams/desires of many in the west - from meeting someone who understands you, to helping others through difficult times. Relationships are not all plain sailing, but the ups and downs are shown in movies with a focus (for the most part) on the upside winning in the end. The 'American Dream' is usually considered to be anybody being able to make it in America and a spirit of enterprise/can-do attitude. I would say that movies probably show more people having a 'can do' attitude and 'making it' than really do (proportionally), but again it could be seen to reflect a positive outlook on people's ability to alter the outcome of their lives. ny156uk 22:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Torque

How do u add torque to a car? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.201.121.120 (talk) 19:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

Some thoughts. Bigger engine (or enlarge bore/stroke). Gearing changes; lower gearing (higher numerical) = more torque to the ground and less top end. Smaller diameter tires (same principle as gearing). Mod chips for the electronics. Camshaft change to a "torquer" cam. --Justanother 19:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The article Engine tuning covers many of these techniques. Also as Justanother pointed out, you can change your torque at the wheels with tire or gearing changes, without doing anything to the engine at all. Friday (talk) 21:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Add a turbocharger/supercharger. But as the old saying goes, "there's no substitute for cubic inches."

Atlant 13:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Took me a while to understand that phrase, I was thinking "Of course there is: cubic centimetres." How foolish I feel... Skittle 15:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

See also "There's no replacement for displacement". Of course, forced induction techniques like turbos and superchargers let the engine increase its effective displacement, on demand. So the old sayings have become less accurate with advances in engine technology. I just got a new car with a turbo'd fourbanger, and it's got enough torque to be quicker than a lot of v8-powered cars around. Friday (talk) 16:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Turbochargers, though, suffer from turbo lag. Superchargers, being driven directly from the engine (and in direct proportion to engine RPM) suffer much less from this, there being just a brief lag while the intake manifold rises in pressure.

Atlant 17:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Replace the gasoline engine with a diesel, they often have much greater torque, but less horsepower. StuRat 11:35, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The thing about torque is to consider where it's most useful. If you are cruising at 70mph along a freeway, you don't need a heck of a lot of torque. If you are trying to out-accellerate someone from a traffic signal - then torque is everything. What really matters is that if you plot a graph of torque against RPM, that there is plenty of torque at the lower RPM's and that your gearbox has a choice of gear ratios that allows you to keep the RPM's within the peak of the torque curve as you shift up through the gears. You can somewhat compensate for a fairly narrow band of RPM's that deliver the highest torque if you have a six speed (or more) gearbox with well-chosen ratios. But it's generally better to have a fairly flat torque curve such that you have a reasonable amount of torque over a wide range of RPM's - and that'll get you up to speed much faster than more torque over a narrow band. Understanding where the torque is best in that RPM range is a key to driving your car quickly. My supercharged MINI Cooper only has a 1.6l engine - but it has a delightfully flat torque curve and a closely spaced six speed gearbox. I can blow away even big muscle cars if their drivers don't know how to shift at exactly the right time to stay within their narrow power band. So even though they have me beat on paper, my car is far more forgiving of an amateur car nut than theirs are. (But I'll annihilate them on the very first tight corner no matter what - so unless you are on a drag strip, it's kinda academic!).

The techniques for adding torque are different for every kind of car. For my MINI, reducing the diameter of the supercharger pulley by 15% and putting in a bigger air filter bought me 15% more horsepower (and about the same amount of torque). You can trade top speed for torque by changing to lower profile tyres. But other cars benefit more from being 'chipped' (new software in their engine management computer) - or from having a free-flowing exhaust system - or from any number of other little tweaks. You really need to find a car club that deals with the kind of car you have and ask the experts there.

SteveBaker 06:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Kellogg School of Management Mailings - These people don't work here any longer - take them off of your list please

Take these people off of your mailing list. They haven't worked here for years. Please let me know who else is on your list.

Ms. Judy Dennis Mr. Malcolm Caraballo Ms. Leah McLean Mr. Ronald N. Buswell Dr. Michael R. Farese PhD Mr. W. Dexter Paine, III Mr. James A. Mravca

Suzy Gorme Admin Specialist III WJ Communications, Inc. 401 River Oaks Parkway San Jose, Ca 95134 408-577-6200 (Spambot Starvation enforced) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.52.19.34 (talk) 21:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

Unfortunately, the Wikipedia reference desk is not the Kellogg School of Management. You'd be better off contacting them directly. Splintercellguy 03:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking for a quote

Does anyone know who first said "The cure for high prices is high prices." I have been looking for the first person to use this cliche and have found nothing. Menkatopia 21:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

My Googlefu didn't bring up anything relevant, too. Only the usual "some economist of old", "a friend of mine" and "as they say...". There was not a single site what literally quoted with reference to whom it quoted from. :( Aetherfukz 22:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like it is from the Department of Redundancy Department. It would make more sense to say "The cure for scarcity is high prices." Edison 06:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, my source (a guy at National Corn Growers) said it and I thought it sounded slightly quotable, until EVERYONE I talked to said it, or some form of it. Then an economist at Iowa State said "as a professor of mine used to say..." which got me wondering. Anyway, looks like tired cliche dressed up as insight. Thank you. Menkatopia 16:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Is there an alternative online Reference website to Wikipedia.

I am genuinely so fed up with my own and others' questions and responses placed on the Reference Desks being erased, edited, and/or vandalised that I, and I am sure many other would-be contributors, are increasingly losing interest in Wikipedia, and I wondered if anyone might know of a better site where such ungoverned malpractices are better controlled or prevented. Thanks in utter frustration. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.145.242.132 (talk) 23:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

There's always Yahoo Answers, but to be honest, it really sucks. --Captain Wikify ^Argh! 00:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, this is why we have a wiki, if you don't like it you can try to change it, I'm on your side, but yes, seems like quite a challenge when some people take it upon them selves to be the censoring voice of the ref desk, without much consensus.... Vespine 00:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Really the only questions I've seen erased are loaded ones that have the potential to anger others; as for having your questions vandalised, I'm pretty sure we are all together on not wanting that to happen. If your deleted questions were sincere, you might try rewording them to sound less biased or emotionally charged. V-Man737 01:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

A couple of computers ago I had Encarta, which was on a CD, but which had an updated online service as well. It was excellent; professionally written, and largely free of nationalistic pride and absurd culturally-based bias, or political tub-thumping. It had a more neutral point of view than Wikipdia, and was totally free of idiotic vandalism, which hits many Wikipedia articles 6 times a day or so. Edison 06:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no shortage of websites where you can ask questions, but I've never found any as comprehensive or tolerant as Wikipedia. Most are heavily moderated, fortunately. For starters, you might like to look at http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/ --Shantavira 10:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate all the above suggestions and responses, but why, with apologies if I am wrong, do I get the distinct impression that V-Man is one of the main culprits here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.145.240.104 (talk) 12:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

Perhaps it may be because I am the one who removed this comment a couple weeks ago? Your IP address seems to be dynamic, but is from the same area as the poster of the comment that I removed. If you would like to discuss whether it was correct of me to remove it, post on my talk page. V-Man737 21:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks V-Man for having the integrity to own up. I respect that. But I question your motivation and right to so arbitrarily and savagely edit a sincerely held posted belief without, insofar as I am aware, any collaborative discussion or concordat with other Wikipedians. Whether you did so because you see yourself as some missionary zealot in the uniform of an Eagle Scout or Grammar Nazi, I am at a loss to say. But I do say that in circumventing any subsequent discussion surrounding the OP and ALL its responses, you exposed yourself to the horrors of '1984'. I believe also that discussions such as this, stemming as they do from your closeted and blue-stocking actions, should not be discussed as you suggest behind closed doors; but instead, in open forum. Perhaps only then, will my own, and the sympathetic views of other like-minded Wikipedians, gather some collaborative momentum.

Okay; the reason I recommended my talk page is not because it is private (in fact, it is just as public and open to readers as this page is); rather, there are certain guidelines for where certain conversations ought to happen in Wikipedia. Probably a compromise between the two would be the Reference Desk talk page; it is quite frequented by people who often use the reference desk and have questions or comments about it. I can understand why you would feel that my editing of your comment was arbitrary or savage, especially with a lack of consensus regarding it. I assure you that I have no malicious intentions or missionary zeal in the world of the Boy Scouts or the Grammar Reich (I see you've visited my user page!) - I am simply trying to follow and help others follow the guidelines that Wikipedia is based on. Out of curiosity, how much of Wikipedia's guidelines are you familiar with? This would help to determine your personal motivations in your posts, since usually people who are very familiar with the guidelines don't make strong-opinion-oriented comments with good intentions. Also, since your IP address is dynamic (AOL, it seems), this will be a lot easier if you have a user account. They come highly recommended! Let me know where you'd like to take this to discuss to its fullest. ^_^ V-Man737 01:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the poster that it is inappropriate to change the words of others in a talk page like the Ref Desk (especially without consensus). I believe he was also quite correct in that many of the medieval policies and teachings of the Catholic Church were contrary to the teachings of Jesus. For example, leading religious crusades to conquer those of other religions is certainly not the type of thing Jesus wanted out of his Church. Ironically, the medieval Catholic Church also figuratively "changed the words of Jesus", and I find it just as unacceptable then as it is now. StuRat 11:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC)