Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 August 8

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August 8

Spoken English

Is it correct to say "a whole nother <something>" in colloquial english? Breaking up another into a- and -nother. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.185.139.42 (talk • contribs) 00:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

See Tmesis#Tmesis in English. —Tamfang 00:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd opine that it is not correct (in the sense of formal), though not unknown; probably best characterised as uncommon. I don't recall ever hearing another being subject to a Tmesis. --Tagishsimon (talk)

"whole 'nother" is a regional dialect form. I'm thinking that it's probably indigenous to Southern Illinois, Missouri and the upper south, but I'm not sure. In formal writing it would be considered unacceptable. Donald Hosek 01:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

No indeed! The correct English is: A completely different 'something'--SpectrumAnalyser 02:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

That may be "correct English" (whatever that means :-) ), but it doesn't necessarily convey the same meaning. When you say "a whole nother", the implication is that the nother thing is not merely different, but newer, or elevated to some higher plane. The connotation is similar to the hackneyed sportscaster's phrase, "It's a whole new ball game". —Steve Summit (talk) 12:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

To answer the original question, this would be completely acceptable in colloquial, spoken English. However, people from different parts of the country likely have different levels of familiarity with the term. Mrdeath5493 03:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

People from different parts of which country, eh? There are other countries besides the United States, you know. 64.236.80.62 13:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It's quite a weird split, but then tmesis is like that. Doesn't 'another' come from 'an other', making 'a whole other' slightly more normal? But no doubt it is 'correct' for some dialect, while incorrect for formal use. Skittle 14:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It's certainly not correct - there is no such word as 'nother'. But OP asks about colloquial English and this horrible phrase is definitely used. Here in Texas, you hear it all the time amongst the poorly educated. So it's hard to say that it's "wrong" because nothing is ever wrong when speaking colloquially. 'An whole other' would be the least devastating to the language - but 'whole' is probably redundant, so 'Another' will do just nicely thanks. Incidentally, Wiktionary diagnoses the 'nother' phenomenon as a prothesis rather than a tmesis (or, strictly, a dystmesis), although I'm not inclined to agree. SteveBaker 15:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Surely 'An whole other' would be even more wrong, since 'an' isn't meant to be agreeing with anything, it's just used before a vowel sound.'A whole other' would be slightly more normal, surely? 86.140.170.177 21:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

yeah, it's a cross between "another" and "a whole other". Gzuckier 15:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Steve, regarding 'the least devastating' rephrasing, how about "a wholly other <something>"? 199.172.246.196 18:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah - exactly. Although I think I might be more likely to say "an entirely different <something>". There are plenty of elegant and correct ways to convey the meaning without mangling the language beyond all reason. SteveBaker 23:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

As a descriptivist, my feeling is that the only thing that is certainly not correct in the English language is to say that anything spoken by an actual, native speaker is "certainly not correct".

We do not have an Académie for English, so there is no well-defined, objective metric by which we could even attempt to label any particular usage as "correct" or "incorrect". (And this goes for any kind of English, really, but if the question is about colloquial English, then even more bets are off!) If, among some group of speakers, a particular utterance is regularly and unremarkably used, and has an agreed-upon meaning, how can it be labeled "incorrect"? (Only by some other group of speakers that believes itself to be somehow "better", that's how.)

With respect to the particular utterance in question, I'm an educated person, and I think "a whole nother" is a dandy construction, and I use it all the time. —Steve Summit (talk) 00:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Let's not forget the purpose of language. Phrases like "A whole nother <X>" effectively communicate a unique idea, if only regionally. Practically, there is no way to stop these sorts of phrases from developing. Even someone completely unfamiliar with the term would likely understand its meaning (especially if they were educated). I guess that's a whole nother bag of worms, though. Mrdeath5493 06:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Whilst I agree that English has always been an evolving language and we most certainly cannot (nor would wish to) prevent that - there has to be a 'right' and a 'wrong' that is at least broadly acceptable or else language becomes incomprehensible. We expect to have things like dictionaries, encyclopedias and spelling/grammar checkers - none of which have meaning unless you accept that there is a 'right' and a 'wrong' version of the language. When I write an article for Wikipedia and try to get it 'Featured' - it's going to be criticised against some 'standard' English which is said to be 'right'. Right now, 'nother' is firmly in the 'wrong' pile - but that's certainly changing - and it's only a matter of time until we see it start to appear in dictionaries and then in spell checkers and then in formal writing. This has to happen with the language - but there is still a 'right' and a 'wrong' - it simply lags 10 or 20 years behind the living, breathing version of English. SteveBaker 01:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Strong point, Steve. Mrdeath5493 05:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Song name from a video game?

What is the main theme of Urban Chaos: Riot Response? I keep getting "Modern Romance" and a bunch of other song titles, but Modern Romance is the name of a crappy song by The Yeah Yeah Yeahs. I haven't found any lyrics [of the UC:RR song], but from a concert review I pulled from the series of tubes, it appears they're an indie band (otherwise, I would have heard of them already.)

EDIT: I only have the demo of UC:RR. Normally, the song title would be in the discography credits, but there are none.Mr. Raptor 01:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

"I love you" in Polish

How does one say "I love you" in Polish? Thanks. Acceptable 01:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Ja kocham ciebie, pronounced "yah koham che-byeh" in English.--Codell^Talk 03:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

After you say that, say "hey tea who you yeah bunny"... No actually don't!! haha, it's very rude. But quite funny, saw it on a shirt once.. :) Vespine 04:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I tried saying that to some Polish friends, and they said it sounded weird and old-fashioned. They suggested "ty glupy chuju" instead. But, uh, yeah, don't say that in conjunction with "I love you" :) Adam Bishop 18:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

For the 'hey tea who you bunny' joke, it's pronounced 'hay tih hooyoo uyeh-banih' if you want to pronounce it correctly.--Codell^Talk 05:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Can somebody translate the joke? I know absolutely nothing about Polish :) --Taraborn 18:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Ask Bobby Vinton: Moja droga jacie kocham...Kocham ciebie calem serce.--Pharos 20:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

"Ja kocham ciebie" is very foirmal ... "kocham cie" (pronounced ko-ham chuh) usually covers it. Neil ム 12:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

best countries to emigrate to

what countries are best to emigrate to (from US): i need 3: 1 G8 country, 1 western non-G8 country, and 1 non-western non-G8 country. thank

"Best" for whom and to do what? This is an extremely open-ended question that would be very difficult to answer, even with a lot more information. Bielle 02:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This source says France has the best quality of life (there is your G8 country) followed by Australia (your non G8). You can choose you own non-western country from the list. Rockpocket 03:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Canada for G-8. Okay, I'm a little biased, but you don't have to learn another language, you still get to watch your favorite TV shows, and you get a wider selection of corrupt, self-serving political parties. Downside: blacked-out Superbowl ads. Clarityfiend 04:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

How is that a downside? 68.39.174.238 03:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The question what is the best country to live in has been asked twice before (that I know of) and the answer turned out to be New Zealand. The reasons I can remember: Friendly folk, beautiful and easily accessible nature, largely disease-free, far away from the major pollution sources, not likely to get attacked in WWIII ... and a language that is easy to learn for native English speakers. :) That would answer your second question. DirkvdM 05:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh great, another tractor in Remuera/Ponsonby... --antilived^{T | C | G} 10:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It must always depend on the individual. Much easier to say which are the worst countries to emigrate to. Just for now, one would not advise Zimbabwe, Afghanistan or Palestine. Xn4 04:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Or Israel. Or at least so they like to have us believe. DirkvdM 18:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Ejaculation in urinal

Is it illegal to ejaculate in a urinal? Just a question of curiosity.

See the top of the page. We cannot give legal advice --Lucid 02:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

See George Michael--SpectrumAnalyser 02:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I think masturbation in public is outlawed in most places. So if I had to hazard a guess, I would have to conclude that yes, it would be illegal. But seeing as how I'm not a lawyer, and Wikipedia is not allowed to give out legal advice, pay no attention to my response. --71.98.12.21 03:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It is indeed a good thing that you're not a lawyer, and not giving out legal advice. The answer to the question most certainly depends on a number of circumstances: the local laws, where the urinal is located, etc. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Treating this as a hypothetical question (which Im sure it is), I understood that it was masturbation in public that is illegal in certain countries/states; not ejaculation. To say that the latter usually stems from the former is not to say that this is always the case and there may be a form of involuntary ejaculation (as per wet dreams) or prostate stimulation (which I dont believe is classed as masturbation-- but I could be wrong)--SpectrumAnalyser 14:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

In Edgar Rice Burroughs novels of the early 20th century, men ejaculated anywhere and everywhere, without being arrested, as in "Tarzan and the Ant Men (1924)" where he wrote "'Kom—!' he started to ejaculate, but the other placed a finger to his lips." In Burroughs' "The Mucker (1921)" [1] there were many incidents of public ejaculation, as "'Mr. Byrne!' he ejaculated in disgust." "'Wotinell?' ejaculated Billy Byrne." "'Can't ride!' ejaculated Bridge." ""Billy!" ejaculated the condemned man." "'Impossible!' he ejaculated." "'Impossible! and 'My God! it can't be true,' Bridge heard the older man ejaculate, and then he saw him hang up the receiver and turn from the instrument, his face drawn and pinched with an expression of utter hopelessness." ".Well, I'll be!' ejaculated the sleuth.." In "Tarzan and the Jewels of Opar [2] " there is "--he scarce repressed an ejaculation of satisfaction." Burroughs described female ejaculations as well, as in "The Efficiency Expert [3]:" "She was too well-bred to permit any outward indication of her recognition of the man other than the first almost inaudible ejaculation that had been surprised from her." For all we know, some of these incidents may have been near urinals. Edison 19:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This made my day, especially the first sentence. :D Zidel333 19:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I might add that Percy Phelps did so three times running when being denounced by Sherlock Holmes in "The Naval Treaty". 68.39.174.238 03:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Holmes himself did it in "The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton" [4] , "The Adventure of the Speckled Band [5] , and 'The Adventure of the Golden Pince-Nez" [6]. There were three ejaculations in "Tom Swift and His Flying Boat (1923) [7]. One intrepid reader counted 23 ejaculations by males and females in a single Zane Grey novel "man of the Forest (1920)[8] at Project Gutenberg[9], such as "'Doggone the luck!' ejaculated Roy, red in the face, as he worked the lever of his rifle. 'Never could shoot downhill, nohow!'." or "'Wal, I'll be doggoned!' ejaculated Roy, feelingly. Helen laughed." Edison 05:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

As with Edgar Rice Burroughs, so with Frank Richards's Billy Bunter books. Xn4 04:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

And in none of the fictional cases was the person doing it arrested, at least not for the ejaculation. Edison 05:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Edison. Very very funny. Rfwoolf 13:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow, from all Wikipedias I know the en:wp has got the freakiest questions! I should come around more often.--Tresckow 18:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Please dont come in public-- you could be arrested! 8-)

Come to the darkside, we have cookies -v

I was wondering where that saying came from and who the "-V" represents at the end. I see it on a number of t-shirts and bumper stickers.

Vader? I don't know, but I guess it's just a slogan that some company made up for a T-Shirt, and it caught on. Capuchin 07:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It could be the verbose option of the command. —Tamfang 06:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I made it when I was in seventh grade, back in 2007. But I did not include the V. I don't know where that came from. Mrmanguy4151 (talk) 20:59, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

It comes from the information technology slogan "no rights no cookies" => So come to the darkside, we have cookies

World Of Warcraft

How do I play World of Warcraft without having to pay for it? --124.181.192.3 08:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

You don't. Why do you expect to receive for free something that others are paying for and that no doubt cost the developers a lot of money to make? If no-one paid for it, there would be no money available for the developers to maintain and improve the game or make more games in the future. If you want to play it, pay for it. If you don't want to pay for it, find a free game or find something else to do. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

perhaps you would be interesting in reading List of free MMOGs. Jon513 13:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, check the list Jon513 linked to. You might want to try something like Guild Wars which has free online play (have to actually purchase the game though.--GTPoompt(talk) 13:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I am a sometime player of computer games. I always look for the free ones: first, for an introduction and second to determine if buying the game makes sense for me. In my context, the initial question does not deserve the bite of Richardrj ^{talk email}'s response (and I really hate these signatures that go on for line after line. It is so difficult to incorporate them sensibly into text.) However, if the quest is for an illegal "freebie", then Richardrj's response is understandable. Bielle 00:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

It seemed pretty clear to me that the OP was looking for a free way into a game that is normally pay-to-play. Sorry about my sig. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 06:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

From the article : "In Australia, the United States and many European countries video game stores commonly stock the trial version of World of Warcraft in DVD form priced at A$2 or €2 including VAT, which include the game and 14 days of gameplay, after which the player would have to upgrade to a retail account by supplying a valid credit card, or purchasing a game card as well as a retail copy of the game.". $2 is very nearly free. And I wouldn't be surprised if you could get the 14 day trial just by borrowing a friend's copy. 69.95.50.15 14:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

For User:Richardrj: I think the OP wanted information, not a moral discourse. As for your question, I've heard that there are a number of pirate servers which are based in the beta version of WoW. They are free, but are significantly more restricted in a number of ways. --Taraborn 20:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Braces and airport security

Will my braces set off the metal detectors at airport security gates? --124.181.192.3 10:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe. But if they frisk you and find nothing else that could be setting off the detectors, they'll let you through. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

There are lots of types of Braces, as a quick look at that disambig page indicates. Some of them would set off metal detectors. Assuming you mean either the ones that go in your mouth or the ones that hold up your trousers, you're probably OK, although some machines are more sensitive than others. --Dweller 11:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

If you do set it off they normally check you over with a hand detector off to one side. I always used to forget and wear my steel toe-capped boots and set the detector off, nowadays chances are you are going to end up taking them off anyway with all the added security. Lanfear's Bane

Getting to the Philippines, my braces (tooth only) didn't set off any metal detectors going through SFO and Manila (misnomer- it's in Paranaque, which is an hour away. Back on topic) Airport. Mr. Raptor 11:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I doubt it, that little amount of metal would likely be present on almost ANYONE. 68.39.174.238 03:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

They probably won't set off the walk-through detector, but a hand-held scanner will detect even the tiny amount of aluminum in a chewing gum wrapper or a pack of cigarettes. 152.16.188.107 23:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Some but not all such arches detect my trouser-suspenders. —Tamfang 06:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Telephone Tarif rate

Why Teliphone charges are high in gulf regions comparing to other contries

I don't know for certain, but typically, when telephone charges are higher in one country than in most others, this is because the government controls telecommunications services and chooses to use high charges as a source of revenue or to use high international charges as a subsidy for lower-priced domestic service. Government control of telecoms and telecom pricing used to exist in most countries, but telecoms have been deregulated in many countries in recent decades. The Gulf countries may be an exception. Marco polo 13:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

There could be other factors limiting infrastructure development other than nationalisation, but whatever the root cause, phone calls are more expensive in some countries because they lack capacity. 199.172.246.196 18:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

News paper color

why most of the business / financial news papers have a pink color ? Blackswan

I suspect they're aping the Financial Times - In 1893, the FT turned salmon pink — a masterstroke that made it immediately distinguishable from its competitor, the similarly named Financial News (founded 1884). I suppose it is possible that the FT was itself aping some other paper. --Tagishsimon (talk)

The San Francisco Chronicle's sports pages are green. They call it "The Sporting Green". Corvus cornix 17:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Many years ago, somewhere just this side of the Jurassic era, a now defunct newspaper known as the Toronto Telelgram, used to have a front page printed on pink paper. It was thus always easy to spot on the newstands and on the front lawn. I don't know of a Canadian paper that uses pink paper anymore. Bielle 23:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Um what? Pink news papers? Green? Nil Einne 00:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The UK also has a green sports newspaper, called The Green 'un, founded in 1907. Xn4 04:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

special days international and india

Each day in an year is a specialised one. For example February 14th is celebrated as Lovers day. Like that, is there any list of special days--of each month across the world as well as India-specific?

See Holiday, List of holidays by country and Public holidays in India. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Also International observance, National Day and List of commemorative days. Capuchin 14:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The date of commission for African oil refineries

I read the article 'list of oil refineries' I would like to find out the date that the following oil refineries were opened, i have searched the internet none stop for theree days, and i hope you could be of some assistance

Suez refinery - Egypt

Wadi Feiran refinery - Egypt

El-Brega refinery - Libya

Sarir refinery - Libya

Tobruk refinery - Libya

El-Gily refinery - Sudan

El Obeid refinery - Sudan

Thank you for your assitance, naya_c

I don't know how to help you, but did you seriously not stop search for three days? 199.172.246.196 18:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

That must be one poor search engine you're using! I just typed "Wadi Feiran refinery" into Google.com and on the second link down [10] it says: "Date Commissioned: 01.Jan.1913". That took me all of 30 seconds. I'm pretty sure you havn't been looking very hard for 10 minutes - let alone 3 days! I can't be bothered to do the rest - I'm sure you'll find them if you just take 10% of the trouble you claim to have taken. SteveBaker 23:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

While i'm sure you are feeling smug with yourself, there is more than 1 refinery in Wadi Feiran, and that is part of the problem, leaving aside the egyptian refineries then some asistance would be appriciated with the rest. the refinery to which you refer, (commisioned oin 1913) is actually known as the El-Nasr refinery

Tobruk refinery started in the early 1980's Plasticup ^T/C 18:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Sarir refinery started operation in 1989 Plasticup ^T/C 18:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

plz help me wid dis topic ....

give me an insight into "the urban problems related to energy"

We'd really need to know the context of the phrase. For example, what do you mean by "urban problems"? Cities clearly need energy, though they need less energy per capita than do rural regions, mainly because of the shorter distances involved and the more efficient use of space. Cities require energy for heating homes and workplaces, for fueling public and private transportation systems, for the production of goods and services, including the transport of food and other necessities into the city, and for the operation of vital services, such as water and sanitation systems. Without an adequate energy supply, cities would face severe economic, nutritional, and public health problems. Marco polo 16:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like something from a syllabus. 152.16.188.107 23:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Now I see that this is part of courses on development mainly at Indian universities. My general summary above still stands, but in the Indian context, perhaps the biggest problem is one of building energy infrastructure, particularly for electricity generation and transmission, which is insufficient for the needs of many Indian cities. Also, the rising cost of petroleum poses a problem for Indian cities whose transportation system runs on petrol. Marco polo 01:48, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Capsizing an aircraft carrier

How large of an ocean wave would it take to capsize a United States Nimitz class supercarrier? Thanks.Acceptable 15:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Nobody knows for sure. However, I would think it unlikely that a wave of sufficient height/mass to carry enough force -- assuming a wave that size could even exist -- would also be compact enough in the direction of travel to come even remotely close to capsizing something that big. — Lomn 17:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

A tsunami probably could, but I don't know if that counts as an ocean wave, considering they don't exist in the open ocean (technically they do, buy you can't even tell they're there). — Daniel 17:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

True, considering that a tsunami doesn't gain significant height until it's nearly at the shore. A naturally occurring tsunami and a normally deployed supercarrier would probably never be in such a situation for the hypothetical conflict to occur. Leebo ^T/C 17:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant but – the word tsunami literally means ocean wave, doesn't it? —Tamfang 19:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It means "harbor wave" in Japanese. Leebo ^T/C 19:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I doubt that the structure of an aircraft carrier could withstand the force required to capsize it. More than likely any wave strong enough to capsize it would just break it apart instead. 199.172.246.196 18:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

See Rogue wave (oceanography). The article supports 199's conjecture that such a wave would be more likely to break up an aircraft carrier than to capsize it. Marco polo 20:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Potentially a natural disaster of epic proportions such as a massive Impact event, Flood Basalt eruption or Methane clathrate release could generate a Tsunami or other forms of water turbulence significant enough to capsize or roll an Nimitz Class aircraft carrier, most likely causing massive structural damage in the process. A large (Multi-megaton)subsurface nuclear detonation in close proximity to the vessel would likely have a comparable effect. On a more mundane level, if the vessel were to take on large quantities of water as a consequence of multiple hull breaches (by way of combat or natural phenomena) and very heavy seas, then a large quantity of free water on board could conceivably cause the vessel to roll. Although possessing a relatively stable form, the nature & function of modern aircraft carriers necessitates the existence of a number of large & relatively open sub-decks. A carrier would be especially vulnerable to capsize when its Kerosine tanks had been heavily depleted raising the ships centre of gravity, and/or when attempting a sharp turn (as in the Herald of free enterprisedisaster. Xile.

black squirrels

I saw a black squirrel yester evening in Cupertino. Previously I had seen them only in Palo Alto, where they abound, but I'm not well acquainted with Santa Clara County. How wide is their range? Is their history known? —Tamfang 16:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I've seen them in Toronto and New England, so I doubt they're confined to a particular region. The habitat portion of the black squirrel article indicates many people have seen them all over the place. Leebo ^T/C 18:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The black squirrel is all over southern Ontario. There are also grey squirrels and red squirrels here. The blacks are the largest and the least intelligent, while the reds are the smallest -many not much bigger than a chipmunk, except for the tail- and the most intelligent. Even the Lee Valley bird feeder is solved by the reds in a few days; all that stops them getting wherever they want to go is a physical block they can't jump or climb over or gnaw their way through. They go through aluminun siding like butter. Bielle 18:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Is it fair to label black squirrels as least intelligent without some kind of source outside of your experience with them? I think a lot of factors could affect personal experiences with local squirrels. Leebo ^T/C 18:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I found no comparative studies of squirrel intelligence, but Lucia Jacobs, a behavioral neuroscientist specializing in the evolution of spatial and configural memory, studied Grey Squirrels (Sciurus carolinensis, of which the Black Squirrel is a melanistic phenotype), and found some interesting facts, such as a 15% autumnal increase of its hippocampus size, where the thousands of nuts hidden late in the year get mapped with astonishing accuracy. [11] ---Sluzzelin talk 21:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I meant how wide is their continuous range in the Greater Bay Area. —Tamfang 19:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Most rodents native to the Bay Area are actually native to all of Northern California. You find the same squirrels in Golden Gate Park as in Sacramento, where my grandmother lives (though here I'm referring to grey squirrels). As the climate is pretty similar through most of that portion of the state, I'd imagine you'd see them all over the place. Kuronue 20:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The article on black squirrels suggests that they are indigenous to the upper Saint Lawrence valley and southern Ontario and have been introduced elsewhere. So, because they occur in Palo Alto and Cupertino, one can't conclude that they occur throughout Northern California. I lived in San Francisco, Oakland, and Berkeley during most of the 1990s and never saw black squirrels there or on frequent hikes in the East Bay Hills and Marin. On the other hand, Palo Alto and Cupertino are not so far apart that black squirrels couldn't have spread between them over a few generations. Possibly someone somewhere has done a study on this, but if you are curious, Tamfang, it might be just as easy to have a look around Mountain View and Sunnyvale and see if you see black squirrels in those areas, in which case their continuous range extends at least from Palo Alto to Cupertino. Marco polo 21:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Black squirrels are quite common in my apartment complex in Mountain View (near the Sunnyvale border). --71.146.33.134

Leebo ^T is quite correct in that I should not be expecting the querant to rely upon my own experience in the matter of squirrel intelligence. Keeping in mind that everything about my assessment of the IQ of the various tree-climbing rodents that are listed is Original Research, and thus horribly suspect and completely forbidden, I have checked with 6 people in the past few hours, all living in mid to central Ontario and Quebec. It is the combined view that the red squirrell is the quickest to get round blocks, the least likely to enter a trap and the most likley to find its way into an uninhabited building in winter. So, this is all personal opinions, true, but arises from more than 300 years' total experience. We would not put this into an article, but, on the Ref Desk, it is a reasonable guide. Bielle 23:37, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the effort, even though I wasn't requesting additional original research. The point you are making is that red squirrels are the most intelligent, but that wasn't what I had asked you about. Leebo ^T/C 14:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The black squirrel is not a separate species, but a color phase. The black squirrels in California could be melanistic forms of any of three species: (1) the native Western Gray Tree Squirrel (Sciurus griseus), (2) the introduced Eastern Gray Tree Squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis), or (3) the introduced Fox Squirrel (Sciurus niger). Since these are being sighted in urban and suburban areas, they are probably one of the introduced speces. The red squirrel is very different from the above three species and belongs to a different genus, Tamiasciurus. There are two species of red squirrels in California, one (T. hudsonicus) at a higher elevation than the other (T. douglasii). The red squirrels are considerably smaller than the gray/black/fox squirrels. The red squirrels are also more lively, which probably makes them seem more intelligent.--Eriastrum 23:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

They are very common in Kent, Ohio. For some reason, Kent State University decided to import some black squirrels from Canada in the 1960s, and their descendents still roam the fields of Portage County. -- Mwalcoff 00:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Original Fur Toy Company

Cannot find any info. on any search engine or here about a now defunct/out of business, German toy company that was called The Original Fur Toy or Original Fur Toy company without the word The, in it.

Try googling "Original Fur Toy", including the quotation marks. At rubylane.com there are two references to 'the Original Fur Toy Mouse made in West Germany', and if you look here there is still a picture and description of two of the mice on an ebay listing ended on 9 July. Xn4 04:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean this company de:Steiff? It is very well known and claims to have produced the first Teddy in 1902. Their fur toys were a button in their ear and often come with certificates.--Tresckow 18:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Windows XP install music

Does anyone know who made the background music that plays when you install Windows XP? It's in C:\WINDOWS\system32\oobe\images and the name is title.wma Thanks! 67.169.185.206 21:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• I second this request for information, and I'd like to know the artist and title please. Thanks. Steevven1 ^{(Talk) (Contribs) (Gallery)} 03:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

from Windows XP#Windows Welcome Music: "It was composed by Brian Eno, whose previous work for Microsoft includes the original startup sound for Windows 95." However there is no reference cited. Jon513 14:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Strange bird

I saw a very odd looking bird while walking down by my local canal; it looked very much like a common white goose in size and shape, except for two unusual features: firstly, it had a completely grey back with white wingtips, and secondly, it had a bright red, very lumpy face, with a large central bump in the middle over the nostrils. Any ideas what it might be; there's no sign of one in my bird book. Laïka 21:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This site (http://www.surfbirder.com/cgi-bin/ukbirdid/readcsv.pl?typeb=ducklike&where=gb) may help. I've no idea myself but perhaps Goose may have sub-articles that go into details about specific types. ny156uk 21:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like a Muscovy Duck, a domestic breed that comes in many color variations from mostly black to mostly white. They all have the strange lumpy face you describe. Try doing a Google image search on Muscovy Duck.--Eriastrum 22:37, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Or, see Muscovy Duck, with its gallery. -Arch dude 23:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it probably is a Muscovy. Many thanks! Laïka 23:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

tobacco/herb grinders

To whom it may concern: I would like to purchase a tobacco/herb grinder for personal use. I would like to know the differences (pros and cons) associated with different types of grinders (plastic, woode, metal), their designs (2, 3, 4 chamber, shape of grinding teeth), and any other relevant information that could be provided. I visited the "herb grinder" section on the site but found it lacking (no offense). I wouldn't mind writing and posting an elaborate article in its place but I don't have the knowledge to do so. Thank you very much for your time and assistance. 71.76.166.10 22:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Those sound like useful additions to our article. You could try posting at the talk pages of some of the contributors to the article. Be wary that "pros and cons" might lead into people's personal opinions, rather than objective encyclopedic content, so might be outside our remit. --Dweller 15:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)