Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2006 October 30

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October 30

Some doggy help!!!

I have a fairly simple question to something that is driving us crazy!!! We have a two year old mixed breed dog who is quite sweet, but lately she is at our neighbor's fence digging and chewing on the fence!!!! We have tried everything we can think of to keep her away from the fence but to no avail...when she is outside, she bolts straight to the fence...this is a new behaviour!!! Does anyone have any idea what to do??? We can use any and all suggestions! Thank you so much and have a great day!

Do they have a dog? Is she on heat? Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 00:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

A 2 year old can suddenly behave quite badly. You could read some books or talk to a dog trainer, but it usually means that some strong corrections are needed. You have to do this very carefully, and always give her a big kiss after. --Zeizmic 01:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Spray bitter apple on the fence, dogs hate it: [1]. Your local pet store should have it. Another option is to put the dog on a leash when in the yard. Make sure the leash doesn't reach the fence. To actually solve the problem, though, you dog needs obedience training. I would think they will pull a choke train tightly whenever she starts to dig, repeatedly, until she learns not to dig anymore. StuRat 06:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I would second the bitter apple suggestion, but I'd strongly advise against choke chains under any circumstances. There is considerable evidence that they do lasting damage to dogs' necks and are unnecessarily cruel. -Elmer Clark 07:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Some jursidictions have now made it illegal to keep a dog on a chain or a leash attached to a permanent fixture for more than a couple of hours. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

You have to balance the risks. Having a dog that constantly tries to burrow out of the yard poses considerable risk of injury to the dog (being hit by cars, etc.) and others (dog bites). Another option is to use a shock collar, but some pain is required to for the dog to learn, as you can't explain things logically to a dog. StuRat 17:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Clearly, your neighbor is a serial killer who has been burying his victims near his side of the fence, and is only waiting for the opportune moment to whip out the old chainsaw and come for you. I'd move. B00P 10:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

No, no. That would be giving in to fear. Stay, and fight the terror. JackofOz 11:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

So the dog doesn't succeed in digging under the fence, you could trench down a foot or so and install chicken wire below grade and extending up the fence a couple of feet. Edison 16:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like about 1000 times as much work as putting the dog on a leash that doesn't reach the fence. StuRat 17:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

A hot wire would be more effective and easier than chicken wire, and more practical than a shock collar. It only takes one or two zaps (not causing injury, only brief pain) to teach them respect.--Shuttlebug 03:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean an electric fence ? That would also pose a danger to others (I was once zapped by one while watching horses and leaning against the fence). StuRat 06:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

An electric fence designed for dogs is not as powerful as one for horses. Also, it would not have to be turned on all the time. We put a hot wire around the top of our pond fence to keep the cats out - they only needed one shock to learn their lesson. --Shuttlebug 19:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

CRAZY LENNY'S CRAZY DEALS!!!

I hvae no idea who is this guy, but it appears he's phenominally known. I think I might have have got his name wrong, because I can't find him on Wikipedia, any help? The velociraptor 01:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Crazy Eddie? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

or one of our many Crazy articles. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Google? 惑乱 分からん 01:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

We also have no idea who he is. He appears to be phenomenally unknown. In what context did you encounter this (national TV, local newspaper, the pub, ...), and do you have any idea what kind of deals they are (political deals, six chastity belts for the price of five, iPod for 85 $ off, ...)?  --Lambiam^Talk 03:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we should have a "List of People with No Known Notability". It would take quite some time to compile, but it would come in handy for these sorts of queries. :) JackofOz 03:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

There was some guy in Milwaukee named Len Mattioli, who did a lot of crazy stunts trying to sell TV sets [2]... Could be him, possibly... 惑乱 分からん 12:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Maxwell Taylor's left hand

Did Maxwell Taylor have any injuries to his left hand prior to 1963 ?....

He wasn't born in 1963. Perhaps you mean a different Maxwell Taylor to the bloke I know. Perhaps not. It's difficult to tell without some context. Who are you referring to? --Dweller 12:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't see any reference to a hand injury in the article abnout Maxwell D. Taylor, even though he parachuted in at D-Day in WW2, and commanded in the Korean Conflict, and in Vietnam. Edison 17:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Familiar pattern

There's this pattern... in first grade the teacher used it to get us to pay attention (she clapped it). It goes:

CLAP (pause) CLAP (pause) CLAP CLAP CLAP

and then the students echo it.

I was playing counter-strike today and some guy who was camping was bored, so he fired off bullets in this very pattern. I echoed, and he did it back again. So I know this is "out there" and not just something used in my local elementary school. What's this pattern called? --froth^{T C} 06:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well this isn't much of an answer, but it's the first half of the iconic

CLAP (pause} CLAP (pause} CLAP CLAP CLAP (pause) CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP (pause) CLAP CLAP.

Anchoress 07:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It's the beat pattern to the Cha-cha-cha.
B00P 10:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

According to football chant, the earliest notable use of the claps were used to advertise AAPT, with the company name spelt out to the beat (A. A. AAP. AAPT. Smart Chat!). Nowadays, you'll hear them at any football match (often with the last two claps changed to "Eng-land", "Uni-ted", "Chel-sea" etc.)

The longer pattern was how the strikers in May '68 scanned the slogan Ce n’est qu’un début, continuons le combat! ("This is just a start, let's go on with the battle!")  --Lambiam^Talk 21:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Who invented the iconic clap?

Who invented that iconic clap? When was that first used? --WikiSlasher 07:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Good question, I don't know. It does have a strong association with sports, and it's used by a lot of cheerleading squads, so maybe it originated as an audience clapalong or a cheer. Anchoress 09:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you think the question deserves its own header? --WikiSlasher 11:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you the original poster? You might want to edit the title to make it more detailed and inclusive of the discussion, but I don't think you should start a separate section for it. You could make a sub-section though, using three === instead of two. I should read. Yeah, I get your point, it's an offshoot question now. Anchoress 15:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I have a feeling it was a tune, perhaps the signature tune to a sports programme, but I can't put my finger on it....--Shantavira 10:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Musipedia offers a rythm search, try it! --193.56.241.75 12:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Is this the "Let's Go" pattern? Clap-Clap-ClapClapClap-ClapClapClapClap-"Let's go!" It's a song, I guess, and they play it at sporting events. --Maxamegalon2000 15:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

No, that one is clap-clap-clap-clap-clapclap. As in let's-go-gi-ants-letsgo --Justanother 15:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

No, not that one. The one I'm thinking of doesn't have a team name in it or anything. It's just the claps and "Let's go" at the end. --Maxamegalon2000 16:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, then it probably the same one as the OP asks about. Guess it is catchy. --Justanother 16:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't knock this one

And of course there is also the most famous of knocks: KNOCK - KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK - KNCOK --- KNOCK - KNOCK. Anyone know a background or name for that? And what does one call a phenomenon like this? I've had a quick look in rhythm, clapping, Category:Percussion and Knock (disambiguation), but couldn't find anything. DirkvdM 06:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I luuuuuuuuuv Wikipedia. Shave and a haircut. Anchoress 08:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow I never knew that had a name. Also it's interesting that we both knew what notes go with a seemingly baffling sequence of KNOCKs --froth^{T C} 03:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

numismatism

 I heard that for a product to be numismatic two conditions should be followed.

1.it should be of limited edition. 2.it should have an issuing authority. I dont know whether my information is correct or not.so please give me an answer and help me out of this.

Have you checked out the article on Numismatics? Natgoo 09:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like you are contemplating buying some commemorative coins from some company like the Franklin Mint. I'd suggest against that, at least as an investment, as the vast majority of such items never attain a value any greater than the purchase price. Instead, buy actual antique coins. Being rare certainly helps, but many coins were mass-produced but are now rare, just due to the passage of time. The only "issuing authority" is likely to be the mint which created them. StuRat 17:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Buy gold coins in the best condition you can find that are the rarest you can afford. -THB 22:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually numismatics has to do with the study and collecting of coins, currency and exonumia such as tokens etc. By your definition almost anything else can be numismatic, which is not the case.

Furniture counterfeiting

Term for damage to furniture to make appear old.

The article on distressing is a good start, although I don't know if that's exactly what you're looking for. Anchoress 09:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Antiquing is related, but that's more adding what looks like dirt to it to make it look old (another meaning of the word is shopping for antiques). Am I the only one who thinks this is all a bunch of foolishness ? No worse than jeans that come with holes in them, I suppose. StuRat 16:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

'Antiquing' is actually covered in (and is redirected to) the distressing article. Anchoress 07:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, I detect an incorrect assumption in the title. Most furniture distressing is not done in order that the furniture can be sold, dishonestly, as a genuine antique, but rather so it can be sold, honestly, as a "simulated antique". StuRat 17:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

OK Corral

What (if anything) does the OK stand for in OK Corral?

Have you read the article O.K. Corral? Anchoress 14:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't see it in there. So what does it stand for? Rmhermen 16:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Good question. It's the state abbrev for Oklahoma, but, since this was in Arizona, that probably isn't the meaning. If that was just a symbol used for branding cattle, then it may not mean anything, but could just be essentially a random symbol. Random shapes and letters were frequently used for brands, anything to make them unique. Of course, there is the meaning of OK as "all right". This could be used in a business slogan: "You don't have to be worried about being ripped off, because everything will be OK at the OK Corral". StuRat 16:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

"OK" was the name of the ranch, like "Circle Bar" or "Running W", "V Bar V". You might try calling someone at the city hall or gift shop in Tombstone and ask them what it stood for. -THB 19:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Could be the initials of the owner : O'Keefe, Oliver Kennedy, Old Knave or Ollie and Katrina ... -- DLL ^{.. T} 19:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Google doesn't have much to say. A discussion on a bulletin board suggests the name might have been 'Ormsby Kimberly' for two families in the area, but if it were true, you'd think it would be more commonly known. Anchoress 02:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I always thought it was because the brand for that corral looked like a K within a circle or "O". Therefore it was called the OK corral. Dismas|^(talk) 06:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, of course the brand and the name of the corral would match, as was the standard practice (is this where the term "brand name" comes from ?). The question is, why did they choose that brand/name ? Was it just random, or did it have some meaning ? StuRat 13:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Upon hearing that it didn't seem to refer to anything immediately obvious (like the owners), my first guess was that the name was chosen simply because 'OK' by all accounts was a popular word at the time (see Okay). A Google search seems to suggest that this is probably the case:

John Montgomery, founder of the corral and livery and feed stable at the OK Corral in Tombstone, Arizona, probably chose that name because it was in fashion at the time. So the present owner of the corral, Robert Love, tells me. (sauce)

There seem to be other cases of this in history. For example, there is a town in Oklahoma named 'Okay' (sauce). There are several other geographical features named 'OK', most prominently a mine in Colorado (sauce). There were also companies such as 'Okay Truck' and 'Okay Clothing'. ~ lav-chan @ 05:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Lav-chan, what does "sauce" mean ? Is that a funny way of saying "source" ? StuRat 20:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, but depending on who you ask. I was going to link to an article on the term, but it appears that Encyclopedia Dramatica is 'blacklisted' from Wikipedia. Google if you want i guess. :shrug: ~ lav-chan @ 23:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

needing help

i am looking for pictures or information on a relative who was born in 1893 but have not been able too turn up any information as yet where is the best place too go

Welcome to Wikipedia. You can easily look up this topic yourself. Please see Genealogy. For future questions, try using the search box at the top left of the screen. It's much quicker, and you will probably find a clearer answer. If you still don't understand, add a further question below by clicking the "edit" button to the right of your question title. And please sign your posts! -THB 14:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

With all respect to THB, I think that template assumes a bit too much. I tried "pictures or information on a relative who was born in 1893" in the search box and got nothing so I tried just "information on a relative". Still nothing. Perhaps the poster does not know that the subject he seeks is called Genealogy. In other words, I find the template a bit unwelcoming. --Justanother 14:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Ancestry.com and perhaps other genealogy-related sites charge a subscription fee, but have genealogies of millions of people. Latter Day Saints (Mormons) have family heritage centers located at many of their churches around the country. Public libraries or local city or county historical societies may have files and other materials which are helpful. The person is likely listed in the 1900 census, along with the place and date of birth and occupation of siblings and parents. The 1910 1920 and 1930 censuses of the US are available at Ancestry or through the LDS centers or some libraries. You should be able to find considerable info, but no guarantees of pictures. Your best bet to pictures is to find a relative who is a genealogy bug and has such pictures. The easiest route is often to find the person who has already done all the work for you, but you should not accept genealogies at face value because they are probably more full of errors than even Wikipedia, since they are the creation of an individual without collaborative editing. Edison 17:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

If your ancestor came to the US, there may be some info here and it is free to search (free registration is required to view records). --Justanother 17:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

And all of the above is discussed in Genealogy. -THB 18:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the Ellis Island link is not there at all; maybe I will add it later. But, overall, it is a good article.

acousticophilia

I'm trying to find a word that describes a kind of fetish for words,the sound of and use of long,often latin-derived and not commonly used words-that would normaly be regarded as pompous or pretentious.In the list of paraphilias,the closest to that was the above,a term that refers more to the love of sounds.I believe there is another type of a -philia,that has to do more with the love of 'high' language.Help. Veronika

'Logophilia' comes close, but that just means "love of words". By the way, you might have got a better answer if you had posted this to the language reference desk. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Ohh, you beat me to it but see this anyway. [3] --Justanother 15:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Due to my lethologica, I just lost half an hour at The Phrontistery. Although I couldn't locate a word that describes a fetish for words, here are some that were close: 1) epeolatry -- worship of words 2) grammatolatry -- worship of letters and words 3) lexiphanic -- bombastic; sesquipedalian; using many long words 4) sesquipedalian -- tending to use long or cumbersome words SWAdair 05:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Caffeine in Cigarettes

I noticed that cigarettes add along with many other chemicals caffeine to their tobacco leaves. Is it caffeine powder they add and if so how could they add a powder to the leaves and make it stick or not fall off?

I imagine that they would use a water-based spray that includes everything that they want to add; see this list. [4] Here is a good site; look at Step 4 Primary Processing. I think it would be added in the "casing" or "top dressing" stage. --Justanother 15:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

If they use a water-based spray for the top dressing how do the leaves not get soggy and remain effective?

Just guessing but the site mentioned is good. Cured leaves are very brittle. Water is added to allow them to be processed into cigarettes. --Justanother 17:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

How do they get the flavors for cigarettes, I know some contain chocolate and marshmellow,do they include those things in the water base or top dressing and how could it even be tasted or be effective through all those other chemicals?

I imagine a lot of those others have no taste and they can make the taste they desire as strong as they like. Here is an interesting quote:

One flavourant developed to increase smoothness perceptions for project XG appears to have demonstrated significant results: a combination top dressing consisting of chocolate, vanillin, licorice, and "tobacco enhancer flavor". A personal memo from November 22 to the developer of the flavourant notes:

"I would like to express my sincere appreciation for the exciting flavoring work you have done on Project XG. The chocolate/ vanillin/ licorice/ tobacco enhancer is undoubtedly one of the most exciting and promising flavorants that has been developed during the last several years . . . As you know, this flavorant appears to have significant appeal among the 18–24 year old smoker group and this is obviously the group that we desperately are after."

That is from here --Justanother 20:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Candy flavored cigs appealing to 18-24 year olds ? Try about 10 years younger, the real target market. StuRat 21:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

So they must use artificial flavorings (like extracts or syrups that would typically be used in foods) in the top dressing not the actual chocolate or say vanilla bean?

Probably a lot cheaper... 惑乱 分からん 00:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Not only that, but most of the ingredients in chocolate (or any other syrup) would probably produce noxious fumes when burnt. The idea would be to extract the compounds which give those flavors their distinctive smell (aromatic compounds, perhaps), and only add those. StuRat 02:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Yea, because those fumes are so much deadlier than cigarettes. I'm not sure if I heard correctly, but I remember something about soaking the tobacco leaves in the aromatic water before drying it. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 03:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem the tobacco companies would be concerned about is that it would be unpleasant, since, of course, they don't care if the fumes are toxic. StuRat 06:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I might be wrong, but I heard that if you smoke something, it's generally much more harmful than most other ways of consuming it. Lungs are quite sensitive... 惑乱 分からん 11:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The lungs have a very limited ability to deal with smoke, so we need to keep our exposure low. Intentionally inhaling smoke is not the way to do that. StuRat 13:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Complexity of antlers

Antler doesn't mention the assumed reason for the complexity of antlers like those on moose and deer. So... any answers? 81.93.102.20 17:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

You might try this question over at the science desk. -THB 18:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I would assume there is a random element in their development to aide deer in the identification of particular individuals. For example, one buck can identify another buck which has already defeated him, and thus they can both avoid a pointless repeat of the challenge, which would only decrease both buck's chances of surviving and passing on their genes. StuRat 21:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow. This one had me stumped completely. -THB 22:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The mechanism of antler growth and regrowth is actually a fascinating biological question, both mechanistically and evolutionarily. Much like the remarkable complex patterning of the kidney, prostate or lung, antlers utilize a form of controlled branching morphogenesis. Clearly there is a strong evolutionary pressure driving such a complex, energy sapping process. Some have argued that females select large, symmetrical antlers as proof of success in foraging, fighting, escaping predators, and overall health (e.g. Geist V. 1998. Deer of the world: their evolution, behavior, and ecology. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole.) However, the end result was a crazy, evolutionary antler arms race and now antlers are now so big and complex that it seems as if it would be disadvantageous, so how come they are selected for? If you buy Amotz Zahavi's Handicap principle then, as with most things, it comes down to sex. Like the tail of a peacock, huge antlers may make male deer more vulnerable and are therefore a practical handicap. But the message that the antlers carries to the potential mate is 'I have survived in spite of this huge coat rack on my head, hence I am fitter and more attractive than others'. Thus, to put it simply, big antlers get you laid even if they are a pain in the neck (literally). Rockpocket 08:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

While interesting, that discussion seems to be more about why antlers are large than why they are complex (with each one being unique). StuRat 13:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Size isn't everything. I would argue that patterned complexity is as impressive to a female as sheer size. Consider a peacock's tail. Its not only large, but patterned in an incredibly complex way. As for uniqueness, well, this has probably something to do with the mechanism of growth in a branching epithelia. By subtly modulating the frequency of branching verus outgrowth, one would get very different antler patterns, albeit based on a similar overall structure. Since this is a biological system, its hardly surprising they are all unique really. We don't express surprise that trees of the same species are all a unique pattern, even though they are all of a similar branched shape. Why should antlers be different? The really interesting question, as THB suggests below, is how some deer manage to regenerate their antlers each season. [5] Rockpocket 18:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Is that a reason why females lack antlers? They would be too cumbersome during the act, itself? @_@ 惑乱 分からん 11:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not the reason, it's a secondary sexual characteristic, like beards in men. Interestingly, in some species, such as reindeer, females do have antlers. StuRat 13:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting read: Irish Elk --Zeizmic 13:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Something else interesting: moose shed and regrow those huge racks every year. -THB 17:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

What is minute rice?

Hi, currently I use a Zassenhaus 156 manual coffee mill. One site advised me to use "minute rice" or "Grape Nuts cereal" for cleaning the coffee mill, but ordinary Korean rice turned out to be very hard, so I gave up after a few tries in fear of damaging the burrs.

What is "minute rice," and how is it different from ordinary long-grained rice that's common in Korea? If it isn't available in Korea, what's the best substitute for it if I want to clean my coffee mill? --Kjoonlee 17:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

See Uncle Ben's. Guess it is partially precooked and therefore softer. --Justanother 17:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Uncle Ben's isn't the same as Minute Rice. Uncle Ben's is much harder than Minute Rice and probably would cause the same problems. They suggest Minute Rice because it's much more porous than regular rice. --Charlene 01:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Another brand is Rice-a-Roni. I don't think it's partially cooked, but rather they grind it differently, to "soften it up", which promotes faster cooking. StuRat 21:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.kraftfoods.com/minuterice/ ---Nelson Ricardo 23:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

So it's precooked rice that gets cooked in under 30 minutes. Thanks, everyone. :) --Kjoonlee 03:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Zassenhaus mill

I tried uncovering the top part of the coffee mill, but that didn't expose the burrs like I had expected. There's a black plastic funnel beneath the burrs, and there's a black plastic cover being held by two huge screws. Would I get access to the mill if I unscrew those? --Kjoonlee 17:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh. I didn't know I had to set the mill to its coarsest setting. That way I can see and touch the bottommost part of the lower burr. --Kjoonlee 18:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Most of the comments on the internet just say to use rice, not specifying minute rice. It shouldn't harm a coffee grinder--coffee beans are quite hard, too. Here's a site with specific, illustrated instructions: ***. -THB 18:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I was worried because rice provided a much higher resistance than coffee beans. The volume of rice I used is probably a quarter of the volume of beans that I normally use, yet it was much more difficult to grind the rice. Anyway, I'll try using fewer grains of ordinary rice the next time I try. Thank you. --Kjoonlee 03:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I think instant rice noodles would have about the same hardness. --Zeizmic 13:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Naturally occurring monthly cycles

Dear Wiki users -

I am trying to find examples of anything which conforms to a natural monthly cycle(apart from the two obvious ones - moon phases and ovulation.) I have tried searching Wikipedia and the net in general, with no luck so far. Hoping someone comes up with some leads - thanks!

Best

12.111.201.34 20:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Alex Grant

Tides --Justanother 20:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, thats really the same as the moon one... Philc _T^E_C^I 20:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Month means moon. -THB 20:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I would think that any natural monthly cycle would be related to the moon. What else would cause such an "artificial" interval? --Justanother 20:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

nothing actually does in the direct meaning of a month. ovulation doesnt take a month and a mooncycle neither. a month is still something like time. and time is human, and therefore it is not a constant. (and even outside that last statement my second sentence is correct) - sorry for the bad cohesion of this- Graendal 20:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

edit conflict >.< month may be derived from moon but still it is incorrect. Graendal 20:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sure. I automatically translated month to moon cycle. Month being a total human invention. --Justanother 20:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The original length of a month was set to follow the cycles of the moon. However, people then messed with the length, going for 12 per year instead of somewhere around 13, to make the seasons and such work out better. StuRat 20:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The reason I am exploring this is because the lunar phase is a quantifiable thing (just under 28 days, on average) and the average ovulation cycle is 28 days(can vary markedly, but the average...)This seems to me to then raise the question: Are there other instances where naturally occurring phenomena conform to this cycle? Forget about the "month/human time" concept - I'm just interested in the 28-day aspect - which is not an artificial construct, but something fixed and tangible(inasmuch as time is tangible!)

12.111.201.34 21:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Alex Grant

Actually, it's not completely fixed, as the Moon's orbit changes over time. I don't have an answer for you, but suspect there might be some insect which depends on moonlight to navigate at night, and therefore has a 28 day cycle. StuRat 21:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

How about we forget the moon, or discount it as the cause - I just need any example of a 28-day cycle - the moon just happens to be the one we all associate with that period of time or causative factor...

cheers...

Alex Grant12.111.201.34 21:19, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

That's like saying, let's just forget about the sun and the earth's rotation or discount it as a cause, it's just one thing associated with a 24 hour cycle. The solar day causes 24 hour cycles. The lunar month causes 28 day cycles. -THB 21:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

My point too. The 28-day cycle IS the moon cycle. What other reason would such an interval exist though I imagine it does; perhaps there is an isotope with a 28-day half-life. Is that the sort of thing that you would like to find? --Justanother 21:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

No, the 28-day cycle is just that - a 28-day cycle. The moon-cycle is just the most common association we have with that period of time. A 28-day cycle is not necessarily implicitly or explicitly associated with the moon - unless we're suggesting that the moon governs ovulation, which I don't think would stand up to close examination(otherwise all women would ovulate at the same time!)

Your isotope example IS the sort of thing I'm looking for - it has no (obvious) moon connotations!

Thanks again,

Alex Grant.12.111.201.34 22:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank goodness. Now it's a question for the Science Reference Desk! -THB 22:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The time it takes the Moon to go full cycle through its phases, known as the synodic month, is not less than 28 days but actually slightly more than 29.5 days.  --Lambiam^Talk 22:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts, guys - sorry that I seem unable to communicate what I'm getting at here - but it was worth a try!

Cheers.....

Alex Grant

I understand your question now, I just don't have any answers! -THB 22:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

That's the problem I'm having! But I'm hopeful that I might find some if I dig hard enough...

Thanks again,

12.111.201.34 22:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Alex

Right, Lambiam. Month#Synodic month --Justanother 23:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

So OP, what is the interval you are looking for; 28 days, 29.5 days, anything in that range; 27 - 30 days? --Justanother 23:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Apparently groundhogs have a 28-day gestation period: [6]. StuRat 00:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

...as do seahorses: [7]. StuRat 00:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

...and cottontail rabbits: [8]. StuRat 00:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's a cool one, red blood cells (for sheep, at least) have a "half-life" of 28 days, meaning half of them have died after that period: [9]. StuRat 00:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

In a human embryo: "the 28-day stage...marks the onset of human intra-embryonic hematopoiesis". OK, I'll let you figure out what that means: [10]. :-) StuRat 00:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Protactinium-233 has a 27 day half-life: [11]. StuRat 00:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Chromium-51 has a 27.7 day half-life: [12]. StuRat 01:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Just another comment on the menstrual cycle. I think it is almost certain that this cycle is related to the lunar cycle. The reason we see different lengths and unsynchronised cycles in women might be light pollution. Before humans started lighting up the night (extreme: Las Vegas), the night was dark. The only significant change to the darkness of the night were the moon phases. The light pollution is confusing to all natural cycles that rely on the moon phases as a timed light source. Lukas 00:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Women have had irregular periods for centuries - it's one of the most common complaints addressed in ancient herbals. From personal experience, I can tell you that living hundreds and hundreds of miles from the nearest large city doesn't make a difference either. --Charlene 02:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

But even then, exposure to moonlight would be minimal and exposure to indoor lights would be high. StuRat 02:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Women living together synchronize their menstrual cycles. This would truly be the horror of having a harem. It was an early indicant that humans can respond to pheromones. Edison 04:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Is this nature's way of tellling us harems are unnatural? Damn, I just wanted to start me one. :) DirkvdM 06:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

We need a Wikiharem :) Lemon martini 08:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

And returning to the topic,many sufferers of manic depression often find that it runs in monthly cycles Lemon martini 08:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I heard that crime rates vary with a lunar cycle, but that could be an urban myth. Certainly many sea creatures breed and feed according to the moon. And some types of monkey (can't remember which) ovulate in accordance with the lunar cycle. And I tear off my calendar pages.......--Shantavira 09:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I can buy that crime rates vary, due to the following:

• Primitive man could only hunt at night during a full moon, as there was insufficient light at night to hunt otherwise.
• Thus, those who had an instinct to go kill things during the full moon tended to survive and pass on their genes.
• Modern man still possesses this instinct.

StuRat 05:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Do dogs howl at the Moon, or is that a myth? I once was in a village in North East Thailand where I had heard warnings that the dogs went crazy at full Moon, and indeed, on a full Moon night I was followed by a barking and growling (!) pack for about 1 km on the way back to the hostel. The pebble throwing that usually works to scare dogs off only made them dodge. Dogs can scare me occasionally, but these almost had me shitting my pants. DirkvdM 07:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

So you mean the Dutch government only provides for all your living needs and arranges to pay for world travel on your behalf, yet refuses to spring for a team of security guards, asking you to pay yourself, even though you have told them you prefer not to work for a living ? This is criminal, you should sue them ! :-) StuRat 20:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

bash.org

What's the difference between Random and >0? Vitriol 21:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you talking computing?--Light current 21:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

At that website, people vote on whether they like the quotes. A quote can get a negative score. If you hit "random", random quotes with more negative ratings than positive ones are included in the results, if you hit ">0", then the set from which the random quotes are chosen includes those quotes that have no ratings, an equal number of positive and negative ratings, and more positive ratings than negative ratings. -THB 21:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Vitriol 23:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Translations

I want to translate some English articles into Turkish and upload them.can I do that? Thank you Guner

Yes, but you should check the policies on the Turkish language Wikipedia regarding references being from English language sources. -THB 22:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, you should acknowledge the source, which you can do in the edit summary as you create the page, or on the talk page of the new article. Images that are on the Commons need not to be copied over; they will work as is. You can change "[[Image|FalanFilan.jpg]]" into "[[Resim|FalanFilan.jpg]]" if you want to, but this is not necessary. For images that are only on the English-language Wikipedia you must check the copyright situation if you want to copy them.  --Lambiam^Talk 22:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Note, though, that Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Some_definitions, under 'tertiary source' says "Wikipedia articles may not cite Wikipedia articles as a source". I'm not sure if that is about this too. But there is the danger that any bias in the Anglophone world will thus be passed on to other cultures, more than the other way around, because the English Wikipedia is by far the biggest. A great advantage of having different language Wikipedias is that, if an article is translated, people will get to know the pov of another culture. For this to have its fullest effect, all Wikipedias should be developed independently because else one will get circular confirmations. DirkvdM 07:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

jjtc?

what does that stand for? --Maorisurfer 23:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Lots of things. Could you please suitly emphasi your question by providing some context, such as where you saw or heard it or whether it may be a company, etc? Hyenaste ^(tell) 00:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

what do you come up with? --Maorisurfer 00:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Johnson & Johnson Technology Consultants, LLC, Jackson/Josephine County Technical Committee, Juvenile Justice Training Center, Jay Jones Tile Company, Jumping Jap Trading Company all come up in the Google Search. Hyenaste ^(tell) 01:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)